dk7th wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:Dont believe it was just about cutting the rotation. Calderon and Grant have started stepping up which means Fisher doesnt have to look for scoring elsewhere.

One thing I liked that Fisher did, which they pointed out in the broadcast, was to not sit KP for a long stretch, early on. He subbed out KP for a few minutes in the first, and instead of benching him for a while, Fisher brought KP back after a short breather to run with Grant and the second unit. KP finished the first period and started the second. Gave the scond unit more firepower. Grant and KP looked good running together. If you want to see the team run more, this is a good place to start.

Shows that you dont have to do these bench clearing subtitutions to have make an impact.

good observation. it also exploits kp's hitherto underused versatility.

All good signs but lets see if Fish can use the same tactics tomorrow and the next few games. I think this could be a turning point if the team responds with more consistency.

nixluva wrote:

dk7th wrote:

newyorker4ever wrote:

nixluva wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:It such a no brainer, this is the rotation i'm looking for, play 9 guys, grant had his best game in god know how long. Played 23 minutes, more minutes than he's played in all but one other game (in which we won)

Very little triangle, faster tempo, and easy buckets..

Very little Triangle is just STUPID! They are ALWAYS in the Triangle! It's the SYSTEM they play! Just cuz they got more scoring outside of just Side Tiangle Doesn't mean they aren't still running the system.

I don't know Nix cause i don't know if you ever watch the postgame show or Knicks Extra after games but Wally seems to know what he's talking about and i've heard him and Hahn say more than once that the Knicks don't always play the triangle in all games.

hate to burst your bubble but wally's take on things is kind of sketchy. i do happen to agree that the knicks are not running the triangle every possession. but it remains a starting point or foundation for building a strong and resilient team. i think by game 50 we will know the true measure of this team. fisher and the roster are still figuring things out, obviously.

Trust me the Knicks are running the Triangle and haven't moved away from it. The thing is that people assume that the Side Triangle, feed the post is the system when it's only part of the entire system. There are other sets in this offense but most people just don't recognize them as easily as the Side Triangle. It's the most frustrating thing when I read people saying that the Knicks were successful going away from the Triangle when in fact they are EXPANDING on other parts of the offense.

i confess i only recognize the side triangle. when two players run to the weak side i then only see a two-man game.

so as not to overwhelm me, please choose just one knick video that shows a different aspect of the triangle offense that they run at the beginning of a possession.

nixluva wrote:

mreinman wrote:one thing that I don't like about those pics is that there are too many players inside the arc.

Everything isn't all about having 4 out all the time. The plays are effective in their own right. Having good offensive rebounders and post scorers near the basket on those looks is fine. Remember this is a decades old system that is fully fleshed out. The other plays shown do have fully spread looks. In the end these are examples of the other looks in this system that aren't Side Triangle.

hard to drive the ball with 4 guys in the paint.

I know that this is an old fleshed out system but the game has changed rapidly.

nixluva wrote:

mreinman wrote:

nixluva wrote:

mreinman wrote:one thing that I don't like about those pics is that there are too many players inside the arc.

Everything isn't all about having 4 out all the time. The plays are effective in their own right. Having good offensive rebounders and post scorers near the basket on those looks is fine. Remember this is a decades old system that is fully fleshed out. The other plays shown do have fully spread looks. In the end these are examples of the other looks in this system that aren't Side Triangle.

hard to drive the ball with 4 guys in the paint.

I know that this is an old fleshed out system but the game has changed rapidly.

There aren't always 4 guys in the paint as you suggest. Also it's a motion offense so players are moving and positions on the floor are changing. This isn't a Dribble Drive heavy offense in the half court. It's more of a Dribble Hand Off, Slash, Cut and Post heavy offense. However, there are ample opportunities to drive to the rim even in this offense.

As for the game changing. Sure more teams have adopted a spread offense but not all teams run it exclusively. The defenses have changed but still the Triangle Offense can be effective when the execute properly, meaning run the right counters, swing the ball quicker and more accurately, make the proper cuts harder and push the ball more often.

Thats the thing , they are not running it properly, your the only person who see's different. Even when fisher states in his post game comments that they are not going to be running it exclusively, you turn around and disagree.

That 2nd to last photo is not the triangle, that looks like a simple PnR with Grant and KP, if grant continues to the hole, kp's man(harford protecting the drive) will drop back, melo's man will try to meet grant at the rim, and he will have all kinds of options, which in that particular case, he had a wide open KP who drained a 3.

It would be even better if melo wasn't even standing there, like he should be more at the elbow. That just gives grant more freedom, and options

nixluva wrote:

dk7th wrote:

newyorker4ever wrote:

nixluva wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:It such a no brainer, this is the rotation i'm looking for, play 9 guys, grant had his best game in god know how long. Played 23 minutes, more minutes than he's played in all but one other game (in which we won)

Very little triangle, faster tempo, and easy buckets..

Very little Triangle is just STUPID! They are ALWAYS in the Triangle! It's the SYSTEM they play! Just cuz they got more scoring outside of just Side Tiangle Doesn't mean they aren't still running the system.

I don't know Nix cause i don't know if you ever watch the postgame show or Knicks Extra after games but Wally seems to know what he's talking about and i've heard him and Hahn say more than once that the Knicks don't always play the triangle in all games.

hate to burst your bubble but wally's take on things is kind of sketchy. i do happen to agree that the knicks are not running the triangle every possession. but it remains a starting point or foundation for building a strong and resilient team. i think by game 50 we will know the true measure of this team. fisher and the roster are still figuring things out, obviously.

Trust me the Knicks are running the Triangle and haven't moved away from it. The thing is that people assume that the Side Triangle, feed the post is the system when it's only part of the entire system. There are other sets in this offense but most people just don't recognize them as easily as the Side Triangle. It's the most frustrating thing when I read people saying that the Knicks were successful going away from the Triangle when in fact they are EXPANDING on other parts of the offense.

I didn't say they weren't running it or that they're moving away from it. I was just forwarding what Wally and Hahn were saying that they don't run it all the time. I'm not saying you're wrong on this or Wally and Hahn are right but they obviously have good inside information on what the Knicks are doing since they do all the pregame and postgame shows. I'm not one to say i know the triangle like the back of my hand like some do so i couldn't tell you if they run it 100% of the time but i have seen times when they're not running the true triangle and Fisher did make a comment earlier in the season that they won't run it 100% of the time.

nixluva wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

nixluva wrote:

mreinman wrote:

nixluva wrote:

mreinman wrote:one thing that I don't like about those pics is that there are too many players inside the arc.

Everything isn't all about having 4 out all the time. The plays are effective in their own right. Having good offensive rebounders and post scorers near the basket on those looks is fine. Remember this is a decades old system that is fully fleshed out. The other plays shown do have fully spread looks. In the end these are examples of the other looks in this system that aren't Side Triangle.

hard to drive the ball with 4 guys in the paint.

I know that this is an old fleshed out system but the game has changed rapidly.

There aren't always 4 guys in the paint as you suggest. Also it's a motion offense so players are moving and positions on the floor are changing. This isn't a Dribble Drive heavy offense in the half court. It's more of a Dribble Hand Off, Slash, Cut and Post heavy offense. However, there are ample opportunities to drive to the rim even in this offense.

As for the game changing. Sure more teams have adopted a spread offense but not all teams run it exclusively. The defenses have changed but still the Triangle Offense can be effective when the execute properly, meaning run the right counters, swing the ball quicker and more accurately, make the proper cuts harder and push the ball more often.

Thats the thing , they are not running it properly, your the only person who see's different. Even when fisher states in his post game comments that they are not going to be running it exclusively, you turn around and disagree.

That 2nd to last photo is not the triangle, that looks like a simple PnR with Grant and KP, if grant continues to the hole, kp's man(harford protecting the drive) will drop back, melo's man will try to meet grant at the rim, and he will have all kinds of options, which in that particular case, he had a wide open KP who drained a 3.

It would be even better if melo wasn't even standing there, like he should be more at the elbow. That just gives grant more freedom, and options

I've never said that the Knicks have been running the offense properly. I was just saying that it requires proper execution and so I really don't understand your issue with what i've been posting. In the last game they were much better executing the offense and of course hitting shots and pushing the ball.

As for the plays not looking like the Triangle, well YEAH. Different sets in the offense DON'T USE THE SIDE TRIANGLE!!! What you are looking at are various sets in the Triangle Offense. They can look a lot like similar spread sets other teams use but they are slightly different in the Triangle. If you were looking at Tex's plays you would recognize them.

I don't understand the argument with me on this. I'm actually looking at the plays in Tex's own hand writing. I've named a lot of the other aspects of the Offense to kind of give you an idea that there are other alignments in this offense. 12 spots to fill with a myriad of possible actions out of different spacing. Transition rules for lanes to fill and spacing and options to score quickly or flow into the half court offense. The primary goal isn't the Side Triangle but rather to score. In the end it's just basketball but you have a system so that everyone can be on the same page.

In each picture u only see 2 Knicks players in movement which gave 3 of the hangover Hawks defender time to rest.
The pictures show we are still a stand-still ISO team!
Our triangle-offense is poor and dont look like a triangle because we dont move without the ball, plus all our big men (esp KP Melo n D.Will) act like they dont know how to screen or pick a defender off their teammate guards.

When u watch the Spurs run Pop's triangle-offense they have 3 to 5 of their defenders in running mode chasing after a Spurs player to defend. WHY?
All the Spurs picks and double-screens work efficiently to always have guards defending a Spurs bigman giving the Spurs easy access to move the ball freely amongst each other.
The Spurs always have 3 to 5 players moving without the ball in Pops triangle-offense .. We don't!

Kemet wrote:

nixluva wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

nixluva wrote:

mreinman wrote:

nixluva wrote:

mreinman wrote:one thing that I don't like about those pics is that there are too many players inside the arc.

Everything isn't all about having 4 out all the time. The plays are effective in their own right. Having good offensive rebounders and post scorers near the basket on those looks is fine. Remember this is a decades old system that is fully fleshed out. The other plays shown do have fully spread looks. In the end these are examples of the other looks in this system that aren't Side Triangle.

hard to drive the ball with 4 guys in the paint.

I know that this is an old fleshed out system but the game has changed rapidly.

There aren't always 4 guys in the paint as you suggest. Also it's a motion offense so players are moving and positions on the floor are changing. This isn't a Dribble Drive heavy offense in the half court. It's more of a Dribble Hand Off, Slash, Cut and Post heavy offense. However, there are ample opportunities to drive to the rim even in this offense.

As for the game changing. Sure more teams have adopted a spread offense but not all teams run it exclusively. The defenses have changed but still the Triangle Offense can be effective when the execute properly, meaning run the right counters, swing the ball quicker and more accurately, make the proper cuts harder and push the ball more often.

Thats the thing , they are not running it properly, your the only person who see's different. Even when fisher states in his post game comments that they are not going to be running it exclusively, you turn around and disagree.

That 2nd to last photo is not the triangle, that looks like a simple PnR with Grant and KP, if grant continues to the hole, kp's man(harford protecting the drive) will drop back, melo's man will try to meet grant at the rim, and he will have all kinds of options, which in that particular case, he had a wide open KP who drained a 3.

It would be even better if melo wasn't even standing there, like he should be more at the elbow. That just gives grant more freedom, and options

I've never said that the Knicks have been running the offense properly. I was just saying that it requires proper execution and so I really don't understand your issue with what i've been posting. In the last game they were much better executing the offense and of course hitting shots and pushing the ball.

As for the plays not looking like the Triangle, well YEAH. Different sets in the offense DON'T USE THE SIDE TRIANGLE!!! What you are looking at are various sets in the Triangle Offense. They can look a lot like similar spread sets other teams use but they are slightly different in the Triangle. If you were looking at Tex's plays you would recognize them.

I don't understand the argument with me on this. I'm actually looking at the plays in Tex's own hand writing. I've named a lot of the other aspects of the Offense to kind of give you an idea that there are other alignments in this offense. 12 spots to fill with a myriad of possible actions out of different spacing. Transition rules for lanes to fill and spacing and options to score quickly or flow into the half court offense. The primary goal isn't the Side Triangle but rather to score. In the end it's just basketball but you have a system so that everyone can be on the same page.

In each picture u only see 2 Knicks players in movement which gave 3 of the hangover Hawks defender time to rest.
The pictures show we are still a stand-still ISO team!
Our triangle-offense is poor and dont look like a triangle because we dont move without the ball, plus all our big men (esp KP Melo n D.Will) act like they dont know how to screen or pick a defender off their teammate guards.

When u watch the Spurs run Pop's triangle-offense they have 3 to 5 of their defenders in running mode chasing after a Spurs player to defend. WHY?
All the Spurs picks and double-screens work efficiently to always have guards defending a Spurs bigman giving the Spurs easy access to move the ball freely amongst each other.
The Spurs always have 3 to 5 players moving without the ball in Pops triangle-offense .. We don't!

You really want to compare the Spurs to the Knicks who we just put together this summer and most of the team is new to the Triangle? It's really not fair at all. The Knicks are making some progress even if it's not as fast as we would like. This is a marathon and not a sprint.

Malcolm wrote:

nixluva wrote:You really want to compare the Spurs to the Knicks who we just put together this summer and most of the team is new to the Triangle? It's really not fair at all. The Knicks are making some progress even if it's not as fast as we would like. This is a marathon and not a sprint.

I can appreciate the frustration people have with what you say.

Because it sounds like you're saying: "This isn't the Triangle until it works".

But you're NOT saying that.

You've more than once said (in effect, during an actual game): "That was a Triangle Set that worked . . . and then he missed the shot".

And we're FAR from saying "That was a Tringle Set that worked" . . . a lot.

Everything in any offense is triangle... or may be Nixangle?
If Knicks will not stumble and bumble most of the time you will not need to mumble about triangle so much.