knickscity wrote:

nixluva wrote:

TPercy wrote:Just change the system and watch the improvement on a majority of our players.

That's the problem tho. This system isn't about the individual, no more than the Spurs style of play is about the individual.

A team system is supposed to fit the individuals that are there. Good team acquire good talent, then fit the system around such talent to help them all play better.

Tex Winter:
Some Triple Post Thoughts

It is not the system but the execution of the system that counts.

Systems succeed and fail based on execution of minute details of the basic fundamentals.

A complete mastery of the individual fundamentals is the first objective.

Learn to play without the ball.

Accurate passing is the key to making the offense work.

Players must be able to recognize an opportunity when it presents itself.

In transition, players must be drilled to race each other to fill the lanes.

Never Dribble when a pass is available.

pass to the man ahead as soon as he is open.

A great team has poise.

By Phil Jackson and Tex Winter
Seven Principles of the Sound Offense

An effective offense, to my way of thinking, features the following dimensions.

1. Penetration. Players must penetrate the defense, and the best way to do this is the fast break, because basketball is a full-court game, from baseline to baseline.

2. Spacing. I am a fanatic about how players distribute themselves on the offensive end of the court. They must space themselves in a way that makes it most difficult to defend, trap, and help. Players must align a certain number of feet apart. In high school, I’d recommend 12 to 15 feet spacing, in college, 15 to18 feet, and in the NBA, 15 to 20 feet. Proper spacing not only exposes individual defensive players’ vulnerabilities, but also ensures that every time the defense tries to trap, an offensive player will be open.

3. Ball and player movements. Players must move, and must move the ball, with a purpose. Effective off-the-ball activity is much more important than most fans and players think because they’re so used to watching only the movement of the ball and the player in possession of it. But there is only one ball and there are five players, meaning most players will have the ball in their hands 20 percent or less of the time the team is in possession of the ball.

4. Options for the ball handler. The more options a smart player has to attack a defender, the more successful that offensive player will be. When teammates are all moving to positions to free themselves (or another teammate with a pick), the ball handler’s choices are vastly increased.

5. Offensive rebounding and defensive balance. On all shots we take, players must go strong for the rebound while retaining court balance and awareness to prevent the opponent’s fast break.

6. Versatile positioning. The offense must offer to any player the chance to fill any spot on the court, independent of the player’s role. All positions should be interchangeable.

7. Use individual talents. It only makes sense for an offense to allow a team to take advantage of the skill sets of its best players. This doesn’t preclude the focus on team play that is emphasized in the six other principles, but it does acknowledge that some individuals have certain types and degrees of talent, and an offense should accentuate those assets. Michael Jordan taught me this.

Finally, I want the offense to flow from rebound to fast break, to quick offense, to a system of offense. The defenses in the NBA are so good because the players are so big, quick, and well coached. Add the pressure that the 24-second clock rule applies to the offense to find a good shot, and the defense gets even better.

The triangle offense has proven most effective, even against such obstacles, when players commit to and execute the system. The offense hinges on players attending to minute details in executing not just plays but also the fundamentals underlying the plays. Once players have mastered the individual techniques required of their roles, we then integrate those individuals into a team. Once this is done, the foundation for a good offense is solidly in place. The team can then go on the court with the confidence and poise so essential to success.

This method of play is as old as basketball. The triangle set is adjustable to the personnel, but such adaptations can be made without altering the essence of the offense. The only necessary adjustment from one season to the next involves tailoring the series of options based on each individual’s talents.[/quote]

TPercy wrote:

fishmike wrote:

TPercy wrote:

fishmike wrote:

TPercy wrote:Just change the system and watch the improvement on a majority of our players.

who would you expect improvement from?

You prefer iso-Melo?

Calderon
Lopez
KOQ
KP
Grant
Galloway(if he is the PG)
Early
Melo(not affected)

If we ran a lot of PNR with these guys out there and maybe some specific Triangle sets for guys Afflalo and DWill it could work. People keep talking about how getting a new fast PG is going to have a big impact on us when he would have to change the way he plays to fit the system.

so you think the system is holding back KP? I would love to see you expand on this...
KOQ... right at his career avgs. KP having a rookie breakout year. Melo playing the best team ball of his career. Its like you just named random guys on the Knick roster. Will your system help the Knicks hit the open shots they are missing? And if your new system doesnt work after 30ish games can we scrap it? Honest questions....

Sorry if I have you mistaken but you seem to be confusing "setbacks" and "improvment"
I am saying that all of those guys would benefit from a more "PNR" based system or focusing more on the plays within the triangle that use it.
-Was Calderon not really good at running PnR at Dallas with Dirk?
-Wasn't Lopez benefited from running PnR in Portland because of how good he was at setting picks?
-Grant was statistically the best pick and roll guard in college
-Did you not see how much free flowing our play was against Detroit(particularly 4Q) when we ran that consistently with Galloway and OQuinn? I would rather see a lot more of that than watching him hit and miss with all those long twos and horrible forced looks he has been getting in the post
-Don't you think that teaching KP(after he learns how to set picks more effectively) would get much him much better shot selection?

I'm trying to figure out why any of what you're saying matters?? They don't play in that system now and we won't be changing our system.

fishmike wrote:

TPercy wrote:

fishmike wrote:

TPercy wrote:

fishmike wrote:

TPercy wrote:Just change the system and watch the improvement on a majority of our players.

who would you expect improvement from?

You prefer iso-Melo?

Calderon
Lopez
KOQ
KP
Grant
Galloway(if he is the PG)
Early
Melo(not affected)

If we ran a lot of PNR with these guys out there and maybe some specific Triangle sets for guys Afflalo and DWill it could work. People keep talking about how getting a new fast PG is going to have a big impact on us when he would have to change the way he plays to fit the system.

so you think the system is holding back KP? I would love to see you expand on this...
KOQ... right at his career avgs. KP having a rookie breakout year. Melo playing the best team ball of his career. Its like you just named random guys on the Knick roster. Will your system help the Knicks hit the open shots they are missing? And if your new system doesnt work after 30ish games can we scrap it? Honest questions....

Sorry if I have you mistaken but you seem to be confusing "setbacks" and "improvment"
I am saying that all of those guys would benefit from a more "PNR" based system or focusing more on the plays within the triangle that use it.
-Was Calderon not really good at running PnR at Dallas with Dirk?
-Wasn't Lopez benefited from running PnR in Portland because of how good he was at setting picks?
-Grant was statistically the best pick and roll guard in college
-Did you not see how much free flowing our play was against Detroit(particularly 4Q) when we ran that consistently with Galloway and OQuinn? I would rather see a lot more of that than watching him hit and miss with all those long twos and horrible forced looks he has been getting in the post
-Don't you think that teaching KP(after he learns how to set picks more effectively) would get much him much better shot selection?

I would say Grant is the one guy I will give you... 100%. Jose gets tons of open looks and simply doesnt take them, its getting to the point where Pablo was. As for KOQ he seems to be getting it no?

Bottom line is you are 30 games into it. They (the Knicks) want to play system basketball. Fast break points arent from the system, they are from guys who run. Jose, Melo, AA, Lopez.. these are half court guys... even notice when the Knicks have a couple practices they look great?

You have to give this time. 30 games is a good measuring stick but I dont see the system as the problem. Phil has said we need some players who can get to the basket and we really dont have that right now. Most everything wrong with the system is we dont have anyone but DWill who can really get to the basket. Its not just about mid range jumpers, those are what you take when you cant attack the basket.

EXCELLENT POST!!!

I would add that Jerian passed up several wide open in rhythm jumpers and then forced layups that he tried to float in poorly. A lot of his issues are of his own making. He also hasn't been pushing the ball as he can and looking for easy baskets or drawing a foul. He tries to avoid contact at the rim rather than draw it.

nixluva wrote:

fishmike wrote:

TPercy wrote:

fishmike wrote:

TPercy wrote:

fishmike wrote:

TPercy wrote:Just change the system and watch the improvement on a majority of our players.

who would you expect improvement from?

You prefer iso-Melo?

Calderon
Lopez
KOQ
KP
Grant
Galloway(if he is the PG)
Early
Melo(not affected)

If we ran a lot of PNR with these guys out there and maybe some specific Triangle sets for guys Afflalo and DWill it could work. People keep talking about how getting a new fast PG is going to have a big impact on us when he would have to change the way he plays to fit the system.

so you think the system is holding back KP? I would love to see you expand on this...
KOQ... right at his career avgs. KP having a rookie breakout year. Melo playing the best team ball of his career. Its like you just named random guys on the Knick roster. Will your system help the Knicks hit the open shots they are missing? And if your new system doesnt work after 30ish games can we scrap it? Honest questions....

Sorry if I have you mistaken but you seem to be confusing "setbacks" and "improvment"
I am saying that all of those guys would benefit from a more "PNR" based system or focusing more on the plays within the triangle that use it.
-Was Calderon not really good at running PnR at Dallas with Dirk?
-Wasn't Lopez benefited from running PnR in Portland because of how good he was at setting picks?
-Grant was statistically the best pick and roll guard in college
-Did you not see how much free flowing our play was against Detroit(particularly 4Q) when we ran that consistently with Galloway and OQuinn? I would rather see a lot more of that than watching him hit and miss with all those long twos and horrible forced looks he has been getting in the post
-Don't you think that teaching KP(after he learns how to set picks more effectively) would get much him much better shot selection?

I would say Grant is the one guy I will give you... 100%. Jose gets tons of open looks and simply doesnt take them, its getting to the point where Pablo was. As for KOQ he seems to be getting it no?

Bottom line is you are 30 games into it. They (the Knicks) want to play system basketball. Fast break points arent from the system, they are from guys who run. Jose, Melo, AA, Lopez.. these are half court guys... even notice when the Knicks have a couple practices they look great?

You have to give this time. 30 games is a good measuring stick but I dont see the system as the problem. Phil has said we need some players who can get to the basket and we really dont have that right now. Most everything wrong with the system is we dont have anyone but DWill who can really get to the basket. Its not just about mid range jumpers, those are what you take when you cant attack the basket.

EXCELLENT POST!!!

I would add that Jerian passed up several wide open in rhythm jumpers and then forced layups that he tried to float in poorly. A lot of his issues are of his own making. He also hasn't been pushing the ball as he can and looking for easy baskets or drawing a foul. He tries to avoid contact at the rim rather than draw it.

knickscity wrote:
For the most part the league as a whole only use part or principles but dont run it exclusively. The triangle is an oudated offense, any coach will tell you that. Those same coaches know that they also dont have time to instill it especially considering it goes against what players do in this day and winning is expected. Now way Fisher would have been given this amount of rope if his mentor wasnt a triangle promoter.

I know you're gonna say it doesnt prevent guys from driving to the goal with the ball....yes it actually does. While the teams talent has improved, the style of play is still behind the NBA scene. You cant keep blaming the players, it is the offense. The triangle doesnt promote a fast break, drawing fouls at the line or drives into the paint. It focuses on mid range action. Doesnt mean those things cant happen within the offense, but the triangle itself does not promote such things.

An offense needs to suit your players, plain and simple. There's a reason why a player like Calderon was picked and not a player like Rondo for instance. Rondo calls his number, runs a play based on what he sees. Calderon merely makes a safe ball movement pass. The triangle does not allow such play for a Rondo.. You have to break it to do it. Kobe Jordan and others have done so, but top players of the game can be effective just by handing them the ball.

Some actually believe a prime Jordan or Kobe wouldnt have won anything without the triangle.....utterly ridiculous.

Did you know that there is an entire aspect of the Triangle addressing Transition? So this notion that it limits fast breaks is completely wrong. Did you know that there is PnR action in the Triangle even if they don't make it the center of the offense? Did you know that there is a 4 out option in the offense? There are so many aspects that people don't realize but just make assumptions about the offense. There are dribble weaves and all kinds of actions leading to drives to the basket and not just mid range stuff. They don't really want players standing around and the ball stopping. The better they get at this the better the offense will work. The more they learn this offense as a group the faster they'll be and it will be harder to defend. I'm speaking from actual knowledge of the offense and not just out of my ass.

The thing is that it takes time to learn all of these things and in the heat of the action a young player can get mental paralysis which makes it seem like there are no options when there are. The longer our players play in this system the better they will get and that's the reason you stick with it. It's nonsense to talk about it being an outdated system. IT'S BASKETBALL!

knickscity wrote:

nixluva wrote:

knickscity wrote:
For the most part the league as a whole only use part or principles but dont run it exclusively. The triangle is an oudated offense, any coach will tell you that. Those same coaches know that they also dont have time to instill it especially considering it goes against what players do in this day and winning is expected. Now way Fisher would have been given this amount of rope if his mentor wasnt a triangle promoter.

I know you're gonna say it doesnt prevent guys from driving to the goal with the ball....yes it actually does. While the teams talent has improved, the style of play is still behind the NBA scene. You cant keep blaming the players, it is the offense. The triangle doesnt promote a fast break, drawing fouls at the line or drives into the paint. It focuses on mid range action. Doesnt mean those things cant happen within the offense, but the triangle itself does not promote such things.

An offense needs to suit your players, plain and simple. There's a reason why a player like Calderon was picked and not a player like Rondo for instance. Rondo calls his number, runs a play based on what he sees. Calderon merely makes a safe ball movement pass. The triangle does not allow such play for a Rondo.. You have to break it to do it. Kobe Jordan and others have done so, but top players of the game can be effective just by handing them the ball.

Some actually believe a prime Jordan or Kobe wouldnt have won anything without the triangle.....utterly ridiculous.

You don't really understand the Triangle and it's clear from your comments that you don't.

Did you know that there is an entire aspect of the Triangle addressing Transition? So this notion that it limits fast breaks is completely wrong. Did you know that there is PnR action in the Triangle even if they don't make it the center of the offense? Did you know that there is a 4 out option in the offense? There are so many aspects that people don't realize but just make assumptions about the offense. There are dribble weaves and all kinds of actions leading to drives to the basket and not just mid range stuff. They don't really want players standing around and the ball stopping. The better they get at this the better the offense will work. The more they learn this offense as a group the faster they'll be and it will be harder to defend. I'm speaking from actual knowledge of the offense and not just out of my ass.

The thing is that it takes time to learn all of these things and in the heat of the action a young player can get mental paralysis which makes it seem like there are no options when there are. The longer our players play in this system the better they will get and that's the reason you stick with it. It's nonsense to talk about it being an outdated system. IT'S BASKETBALL!

Maybe you dont understand the triangle. Pick and rolls are usually a part of any offense, so why do we run the least of any team? Fast breaks should be a major part of any teams offense. We're dead last in that as well, as well as free throws attempted. The Knicks play a stupid brand of basketball, when they play smarter basically ditching the trinagle, they look better and play better.

We have calderon as our starting point guard, the guy you personally was slobbing on when he first got here that does nothing a real pg should in todays NBA. He fits the triangle perfectly, and thats why he's here.

I really think no matter what we run you'll be singing from the rooftops trying to support it. Fine, do you. But the Knicks have an very outdated system, and not only will they not make the playoffs running it, they wont prove Phil is right that this system works.

knickscity wrote:

nixluva wrote:

knickscity wrote:
For the most part the league as a whole only use part or principles but dont run it exclusively. The triangle is an oudated offense, any coach will tell you that. Those same coaches know that they also dont have time to instill it especially considering it goes against what players do in this day and winning is expected. Now way Fisher would have been given this amount of rope if his mentor wasnt a triangle promoter.

I know you're gonna say it doesnt prevent guys from driving to the goal with the ball....yes it actually does. While the teams talent has improved, the style of play is still behind the NBA scene. You cant keep blaming the players, it is the offense. The triangle doesnt promote a fast break, drawing fouls at the line or drives into the paint. It focuses on mid range action. Doesnt mean those things cant happen within the offense, but the triangle itself does not promote such things.

An offense needs to suit your players, plain and simple. There's a reason why a player like Calderon was picked and not a player like Rondo for instance. Rondo calls his number, runs a play based on what he sees. Calderon merely makes a safe ball movement pass. The triangle does not allow such play for a Rondo.. You have to break it to do it. Kobe Jordan and others have done so, but top players of the game can be effective just by handing them the ball.

Some actually believe a prime Jordan or Kobe wouldnt have won anything without the triangle.....utterly ridiculous.

You don't really understand the Triangle and it's clear from your comments that you don't.

Did you know that there is an entire aspect of the Triangle addressing Transition? So this notion that it limits fast breaks is completely wrong. Did you know that there is PnR action in the Triangle even if they don't make it the center of the offense? Did you know that there is a 4 out option in the offense? There are so many aspects that people don't realize but just make assumptions about the offense. There are dribble weaves and all kinds of actions leading to drives to the basket and not just mid range stuff. They don't really want players standing around and the ball stopping. The better they get at this the better the offense will work. The more they learn this offense as a group the faster they'll be and it will be harder to defend. I'm speaking from actual knowledge of the offense and not just out of my ass.

The thing is that it takes time to learn all of these things and in the heat of the action a young player can get mental paralysis which makes it seem like there are no options when there are. The longer our players play in this system the better they will get and that's the reason you stick with it. It's nonsense to talk about it being an outdated system. IT'S BASKETBALL!

Maybe you dont understand the triangle. Pick and rolls are usually a part of any offense, so why do we run the least of any team? Fast breaks should be a major part of any teams offense. We're dead last in that as well, as well as free throws attempted. The Knicks play a stupid brand of basketball, when they play smarter basically ditching the trinagle, they look better and play better.

We have calderon as our starting point guard, the guy you personally was slobbing on when he first got here that does nothing a real pg should in todays NBA. He fits the triangle perfectly, and thats why he's here.

I really think no matter what we run you'll be singing from the rooftops trying to support it. Fine, do you. But the Knicks have an very outdated system, and not only will they not make the playoffs running it, they wont prove Phil is right that this system works.

Just cuz they score in other ways besides the Side Triangle doesn't mean that they "ditched" the Triangle. You just don't realize that there's more to the offense than the Side Triangle. As i've said OVER AND OVER, the Triple Post Offense is more than the Side Triangle!!! If people would stop focusing on only the Side Triangle and learn more about the offense they'd know this.

THE KNICKS DO NOT DITCH THE TRIANGLE! I can prove to you that they are very much still running the offense. The problem is that you and many others think that the Side Triangle is the total offense when it's not. You don't know all the other sets and actions and so when they do them you don't recognize that it's still part of the SYSTEM as a whole. They aren't just freelancing all the time when they aren't in Side Triangle.

Lol.

newyorker4ever wrote:

knickscity wrote:When the Knicks are sitting home again after mid April we'll be talking about how they run didnt the offense properly. Thats why they arent in the playoffs again for the third straight year.

Lol.

Why don't you guys take your juvenile argument to another thread cause this thread is for talking about who the Knicks should trade for or bring in from the D-League or anything else about what players we need to help us get to that next level.

Really so simple.

newyorker4ever wrote:

knickscity wrote:When the Knicks are sitting home again after mid April we'll be talking about how they run didnt the offense properly. Thats why they arent in the playoffs again for the third straight year.

Lol.

Why don't you guys take your juvenile argument to another thread cause this thread is for talking about who the Knicks should trade for or bring in from the D-League or anything else about what players we need to help us get to that next level.

nixluva wrote:

knickscity wrote:

nixluva wrote:

knickscity wrote:
For the most part the league as a whole only use part or principles but dont run it exclusively. The triangle is an oudated offense, any coach will tell you that. Those same coaches know that they also dont have time to instill it especially considering it goes against what players do in this day and winning is expected. Now way Fisher would have been given this amount of rope if his mentor wasnt a triangle promoter.

I know you're gonna say it doesnt prevent guys from driving to the goal with the ball....yes it actually does. While the teams talent has improved, the style of play is still behind the NBA scene. You cant keep blaming the players, it is the offense. The triangle doesnt promote a fast break, drawing fouls at the line or drives into the paint. It focuses on mid range action. Doesnt mean those things cant happen within the offense, but the triangle itself does not promote such things.

An offense needs to suit your players, plain and simple. There's a reason why a player like Calderon was picked and not a player like Rondo for instance. Rondo calls his number, runs a play based on what he sees. Calderon merely makes a safe ball movement pass. The triangle does not allow such play for a Rondo.. You have to break it to do it. Kobe Jordan and others have done so, but top players of the game can be effective just by handing them the ball.

Some actually believe a prime Jordan or Kobe wouldnt have won anything without the triangle.....utterly ridiculous.

You don't really understand the Triangle and it's clear from your comments that you don't.

Did you know that there is an entire aspect of the Triangle addressing Transition? So this notion that it limits fast breaks is completely wrong. Did you know that there is PnR action in the Triangle even if they don't make it the center of the offense? Did you know that there is a 4 out option in the offense? There are so many aspects that people don't realize but just make assumptions about the offense. There are dribble weaves and all kinds of actions leading to drives to the basket and not just mid range stuff. They don't really want players standing around and the ball stopping. The better they get at this the better the offense will work. The more they learn this offense as a group the faster they'll be and it will be harder to defend. I'm speaking from actual knowledge of the offense and not just out of my ass.

The thing is that it takes time to learn all of these things and in the heat of the action a young player can get mental paralysis which makes it seem like there are no options when there are. The longer our players play in this system the better they will get and that's the reason you stick with it. It's nonsense to talk about it being an outdated system. IT'S BASKETBALL!

Maybe you dont understand the triangle. Pick and rolls are usually a part of any offense, so why do we run the least of any team? Fast breaks should be a major part of any teams offense. We're dead last in that as well, as well as free throws attempted. The Knicks play a stupid brand of basketball, when they play smarter basically ditching the trinagle, they look better and play better.

We have calderon as our starting point guard, the guy you personally was slobbing on when he first got here that does nothing a real pg should in todays NBA. He fits the triangle perfectly, and thats why he's here.

I really think no matter what we run you'll be singing from the rooftops trying to support it. Fine, do you. But the Knicks have an very outdated system, and not only will they not make the playoffs running it, they wont prove Phil is right that this system works.

You're speaking from ignorance and don't know what you're talking about!!! If you did know you wouldn't be saying what you are saying. We're not dead last in Fast Breaks because of the Triangle. The Knicks don't ditch the Triangle. The thing you see when they are playing well is that they are actually executing the offense properly.

Just cuz they score in other ways besides the Side Triangle doesn't mean that they "ditched" the Triangle. You just don't realize that there's more to the offense than the Side Triangle. As i've said OVER AND OVER, the Triple Post Offense is more than the Side Triangle!!! If people would stop focusing on only the Side Triangle and learn more about the offense they'd know this.

THE KNICKS DO NOT DITCH THE TRIANGLE! I can prove to you that they are very much still running the offense. The problem is that you and many others think that the Side Triangle is the total offense when it's not. You don't know all the other sets and actions and so when they do them you don't recognize that it's still part of the SYSTEM as a whole. They aren't just freelancing all the time when they aren't in Side Triangle.

are offense is not a spread offense and we do set the least picks yet you skipped over this in your rebuttal(s)