knicks1248 wrote:

martin wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

franco12 wrote:we're better than our record. I am starting to believe our 'system' is holding us back.

How so? Where is the elite talent on our roster?

Where is the elite talent on boston, orlando, atlanta,detroit. Melo is better than anyone on any of those teams.

The difference ain't the talent, its the coaching and the system. When fisher said he has to put in Sasha because of his familiarity with the triangle sytem and not because he's better than grant, you know where the problem lies.

KP, afflalo, calderone,grant,lopez,seraphin, Lance, all came from winning situations a yr ago, now a few months later they all suck and cant shoot.

When are you people going to realize the heart of the problem

When Shaq went to MDA's 7 seconds or less system, imagine if mda said, hey shaq im going to need you to starting hitting 3s, would shaq be consider a bum, or wiuld MDA be consider and idiot for even asking him.

Really man, you think that holds? Melo is an talent for sure, but also fairly dominant on only one side of the court.

Atlanta's whole starting lineup were allstars last year. Detroit got Drummond, RJackson and better all-around balance. Same with Boston and Orlando, depth and balance.

Think about it, everyone of the players that were on atlanta that went to the all star game had been in the league for several yrs, what made them above average last season, was the coach, the teams record at the time and the system, milsap and korver were bench players the year before.

You want talk about depth and balance, dude we were pumping our chest out talking about how deep we are 6 weeks ago, all of a sudden were not so deep.

Drummond is shinning in SVG system just like Howard did, and howard hasn't been the same since SVG in orlando.

Listen Martin, i respect your view on a lot of different issues, but there is no way you can sit here and tell me that this system isn't hindering a lot of our players skill set.

How exactly is a player going to be able to penetrate when the center is in the paint majority of the time, and every one else is position below the 3 point line waiting to take a mid range jumper,where's the spacing.

Fisher said it himself that the problem is the system. Damn near every player that has played under fisher, their shooting % has dramatically drop, why, because mid range shots have never been consider high percentage shots.

The PG is capable of pulling a big out of the post if he calls for it. Also as the team is coming down the court if a PG pushes the ball he can get into the paint if he wishes and has the talent to do so, before the team sets up in the Triangle.

In almost every single possession the ball is swung to the weak side where they have a 2 man game in the Pinch Post. There is literally NOTHING stopping a guard from taking charge when he has the ball and making plays. This isn't an offense where you have a ball dominant PG but you still have many chances for a guard to make something happen when he gets the ball.

There are also other actions that the team can get into such as the Blind Pig which isn't about feeding the post and in fact the team runs this but most don't even realize that it's part of the Triangle since it doesn't look like they are trying to use the Side Triangle. It's just one of many options the team has but it still requires guards that can make use of their dribbling skills to get by their man after getting the ball off a Dribble Hand Off.

nixluva wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

martin wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

franco12 wrote:we're better than our record. I am starting to believe our 'system' is holding us back.

How so? Where is the elite talent on our roster?

Where is the elite talent on boston, orlando, atlanta,detroit. Melo is better than anyone on any of those teams.

The difference ain't the talent, its the coaching and the system. When fisher said he has to put in Sasha because of his familiarity with the triangle sytem and not because he's better than grant, you know where the problem lies.

KP, afflalo, calderone,grant,lopez,seraphin, Lance, all came from winning situations a yr ago, now a few months later they all suck and cant shoot.

When are you people going to realize the heart of the problem

When Shaq went to MDA's 7 seconds or less system, imagine if mda said, hey shaq im going to need you to starting hitting 3s, would shaq be consider a bum, or wiuld MDA be consider and idiot for even asking him.

Really man, you think that holds? Melo is an talent for sure, but also fairly dominant on only one side of the court.

Atlanta's whole starting lineup were allstars last year. Detroit got Drummond, RJackson and better all-around balance. Same with Boston and Orlando, depth and balance.

Think about it, everyone of the players that were on atlanta that went to the all star game had been in the league for several yrs, what made them above average last season, was the coach, the teams record at the time and the system, milsap and korver were bench players the year before.

You want talk about depth and balance, dude we were pumping our chest out talking about how deep we are 6 weeks ago, all of a sudden were not so deep.

Drummond is shinning in SVG system just like Howard did, and howard hasn't been the same since SVG in orlando.

Listen Martin, i respect your view on a lot of different issues, but there is no way you can sit here and tell me that this system isn't hindering a lot of our players skill set.

How exactly is a player going to be able to penetrate when the center is in the paint majority of the time, and every one else is position below the 3 point line waiting to take a mid range jumper,where's the spacing.

Fisher said it himself that the problem is the system. Damn near every player that has played under fisher, their shooting % has dramatically drop, why, because mid range shots have never been consider high percentage shots.

You keeps saying these things without any real understanding of the offense!!! Many possessions start with a drag screen at the top and with an overload on one side of the paint, which leaves a wide open side of the floor in which to attack.

The PG is capable of pulling a big out of the post if he calls for it. Also as the team is coming down the court if a PG pushes the ball he can get into the paint if he wishes and has the talent to do so, before the team sets up in the Triangle.

In almost every single possession the ball is swung to the weak side where they have a 2 man game in the Pinch Post. There is literally NOTHING stopping a guard from taking charge when he has the ball and making plays. This isn't an offense where you have a ball dominant PG but you still have many chances for a guard to make something happen when he gets the ball.

There are also other actions that the team can get into such as the Blind Pig which isn't about feeding the post and in fact the team runs this but most don't even realize that it's part of the Triangle since it doesn't look like they are trying to use the Side Triangle. It's just one of many options the team has but it still requires guards that can make use of their dribbling skills to get by their man after getting the ball off a Dribble Hand Off.

I'm sorry, please refresh my memory.. What PG did phil ever had that could take his man off the dribble, or was really good at getting to the basket, was it fisher, kerr, Bj, paxson, farmer

Gary payton on the difficulties of a pg playing in the triangle

"Yes it is, yes it is. With those three spots, you gotta be a patient," Payton said.

Payton went on to say that much of it comes down to a problem where players are used to playing one way (as he was when he joined the Lakers for their ill-fated 2004 run), and the triangle turns all of that on its head.

"You have to have players that can run a system like that. I did it in 2004 and it was not for me. I was used to coming off pick and rolls I couldn't do it. I had to go to this spot, I had to backdoor this way. And if you break down the play, Phil would be up screaming on you."

Payton made it clear the difference is that the great Phil Jackson teams had the personnel to do those things, and this Knicks team does not.

This is gary payton who made a living getting to the hole talking about finding your spot on the floor. A season later he gos to miami a wins a ring with less talent around him.

We don't have talent to do it, and they aren't many pg's or sg in the league that can come in and change that, because they simply have never played that way, and were not taught that way.

The roster we have is not tailor made for this system, we don't have 2 or 3 HOF on the team that can simply dominate when the defense adjust, which is why Phil was so hell bent on keeping a goto scorer like melo on deck.

Derek Fisher has to create his own style and perhaps sprinkle the triangle in it like he was doing in SL. Trying to turn ROBIN LOPEZ IN TO SHAQ OR GASOL, or trying have afflalo post up like KOBE and MJ is ridiculous.

Ever wonder why calderon misses KP so much, because that 2 man game on that same pinch post, in where some one should be cutting but hardly ever does, and kp is sitting behind the arc wide open.

It just doesn't make sense to continue to run something that you don't have the correct players to run it, who's benefitting from doing that.

knicks1248 wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

franco12 wrote:we're better than our record. I am starting to believe our 'system' is holding us back.

How so? Where is the elite talent on our roster?

Where is the elite talent on boston, orlando, atlanta,detroit. Melo is better than anyone on any of those teams.

The difference ain't the talent, its the coaching and the system. When fisher said he has to put in Sasha because of his familiarity with the triangle sytem and not because he's better than grant, you know where the problem lies.

KP, afflalo, calderone,grant,lopez,seraphin, Lance, all came from winning situations a yr ago, now a few months later they all suck and cant shoot.

When are you people going to realize the heart of the problem

When Shaq went to MDA's 7 seconds or less system, imagine if mda said, hey shaq im going to need you to starting hitting 3s, would shaq be consider a bum, or wiuld MDA be consider and idiot for even asking him.

you come off as just another impatient knick fan. phil said he is going to build a team of players that can run the triangle, and that he believes in system basketball. you also need talent to win, and the right kind of talent to run the triangle successfully. i just don't understand the mentality of scrapping plans after 32 games and being the 18th ranked team in the league.

i have listed in another thread the talent level this team possesses relative to the rest of the league. to review: the knicks are currently ranked 18th in the nba, and according to the latest real plus-minus metric, here's how the knicks starters rank--

1) calderon is ranked 27th among point guards, so he doesn't deserve to start on the 18th-ranked knicks. he'd be a good backup.
2) afflalo is ranked 34th among shooting guards, hence in a league of 30 teams, he is a bench player.
3) melo is ranked 7th among small forwards, obviously he deserves to start.
4) kp is ranked 16th among power forwards, so he is starting material on an average team.
5) lopez is ranked 62nd among centers. obviously not a starting-caliber center.

so right off the bat you see that there are only 2.5 legitimate starters in the starting lineup. calderon gets a .5 because though ranked 27th on an 18th ranked team, he is at least in the top 30. that said he detracts from the knicks, weighs them down. afflalo is the worse loadstone however.

of the reserves:

6) galloway is ranked 21st among shooting guards, so maybe he should take over the position.
7) o'quinn is ranked 29th among power forwards. he should be backing up kp. maybe some time at center instead of lopez would be better for the knicks.
8) lance thomas is ranked 42th among small forwards but he is slightly ahead of afflalo overall because of his defense so maybe he should start at the shooting guard position instead of afflalo. ( according to this metric either galloway or thomas would be an improvement over afflalo. thomas certainly is a more willing passer and more capable playmaker than afflalo, who seems to make others worse, just like "bad melo.")

the talent is not there yet. grant has been a significant disappointment. williams is ranked 47th in rpm right now among power forwards.

based on the talent level the knicks are right where they should be. personally i would think the only way to do better than the talent level is for fisher to read the statistical writing on the wall and shake up the lineup thusly:

melo, kp, o'quinn, galloway, thomas and run the triangle

or

melo, kp, o'quinn, galloway, calderon and run the triangle

rotate in:

lopez
afflalo
williams
seraphin

martin wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

martin wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

franco12 wrote:we're better than our record. I am starting to believe our 'system' is holding us back.

How so? Where is the elite talent on our roster?

Where is the elite talent on boston, orlando, atlanta,detroit. Melo is better than anyone on any of those teams.

The difference ain't the talent, its the coaching and the system. When fisher said he has to put in Sasha because of his familiarity with the triangle sytem and not because he's better than grant, you know where the problem lies.

KP, afflalo, calderone,grant,lopez,seraphin, Lance, all came from winning situations a yr ago, now a few months later they all suck and cant shoot.

When are you people going to realize the heart of the problem

When Shaq went to MDA's 7 seconds or less system, imagine if mda said, hey shaq im going to need you to starting hitting 3s, would shaq be consider a bum, or wiuld MDA be consider and idiot for even asking him.

Really man, you think that holds? Melo is an talent for sure, but also fairly dominant on only one side of the court.

Atlanta's whole starting lineup were allstars last year. Detroit got Drummond, RJackson and better all-around balance. Same with Boston and Orlando, depth and balance.

Think about it, everyone of the players that were on atlanta that went to the all star game had been in the league for several yrs, what made them above average last season, was the coach, the teams record at the time and the system, milsap and korver were bench players the year before.

You want talk about depth and balance, dude we were pumping our chest out talking about how deep we are 6 weeks ago, all of a sudden were not so deep.

Drummond is shinning in SVG system just like Howard did, and howard hasn't been the same since SVG in orlando.

Listen Martin, i respect your view on a lot of different issues, but there is no way you can sit here and tell me that this system isn't hindering a lot of our players skill set.

How exactly is a player going to be able to penetrate when the center is in the paint majority of the time, and every one else is position below the 3 point line waiting to take a mid range jumper,where's the spacing.

Fisher said it himself that the problem is the system. Damn near every player that has played under fisher, their shooting % has dramatically drop, why, because mid range shots have never been consider high percentage shots.

see this is why I have a hard time responding to your posts or believing them. For the most part the starters for Alt have been together for 3+ years, same with coach. 3 years ago... 38-44 in a weak Eastern conference. And Korver and Milsap have been starters for their respective teams for some 5 years, not just moving from the bench to starter role the season before as you suggest. That info is at your fingertips so it's kind of embarrassing to see you make that type of mistake. No doubt you would have wanted to fire Budenholzer for being under .500 for the year and/or being a rookie coach and expected a lot more.

Teams need time, luck and continuity from GM to coach to players and a dash of luck to get better and win. Atlanta is a good story.

I didn't literally mean from bench to starters, cmon now, i'm speaking hypothetically. These guys went from average good players to all stars in a yr. Not one of them avg a double double, not one of them avg above 18 points. They made that all star team because of their record.

Al harford avg 16 points and 7.2 rebounds, if he was on a under 500 team, he wouldn't even be in a all star conversation, same thing for teague, millsap, and korver..

Let me ask you this, do you think

1)Fisher and his staff are doing a great job?

2)The triangle is the perfect system for this group?

knicks1248 wrote:

martin wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

martin wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

franco12 wrote:we're better than our record. I am starting to believe our 'system' is holding us back.

How so? Where is the elite talent on our roster?

Where is the elite talent on boston, orlando, atlanta,detroit. Melo is better than anyone on any of those teams.

The difference ain't the talent, its the coaching and the system. When fisher said he has to put in Sasha because of his familiarity with the triangle sytem and not because he's better than grant, you know where the problem lies.

KP, afflalo, calderone,grant,lopez,seraphin, Lance, all came from winning situations a yr ago, now a few months later they all suck and cant shoot.

When are you people going to realize the heart of the problem

When Shaq went to MDA's 7 seconds or less system, imagine if mda said, hey shaq im going to need you to starting hitting 3s, would shaq be consider a bum, or wiuld MDA be consider and idiot for even asking him.

Really man, you think that holds? Melo is an talent for sure, but also fairly dominant on only one side of the court.

Atlanta's whole starting lineup were allstars last year. Detroit got Drummond, RJackson and better all-around balance. Same with Boston and Orlando, depth and balance.

Think about it, everyone of the players that were on atlanta that went to the all star game had been in the league for several yrs, what made them above average last season, was the coach, the teams record at the time and the system, milsap and korver were bench players the year before.

You want talk about depth and balance, dude we were pumping our chest out talking about how deep we are 6 weeks ago, all of a sudden were not so deep.

Drummond is shinning in SVG system just like Howard did, and howard hasn't been the same since SVG in orlando.

Listen Martin, i respect your view on a lot of different issues, but there is no way you can sit here and tell me that this system isn't hindering a lot of our players skill set.

How exactly is a player going to be able to penetrate when the center is in the paint majority of the time, and every one else is position below the 3 point line waiting to take a mid range jumper,where's the spacing.

Fisher said it himself that the problem is the system. Damn near every player that has played under fisher, their shooting % has dramatically drop, why, because mid range shots have never been consider high percentage shots.

see this is why I have a hard time responding to your posts or believing them. For the most part the starters for Alt have been together for 3+ years, same with coach. 3 years ago... 38-44 in a weak Eastern conference. And Korver and Milsap have been starters for their respective teams for some 5 years, not just moving from the bench to starter role the season before as you suggest. That info is at your fingertips so it's kind of embarrassing to see you make that type of mistake. No doubt you would have wanted to fire Budenholzer for being under .500 for the year and/or being a rookie coach and expected a lot more.

Teams need time, luck and continuity from GM to coach to players and a dash of luck to get better and win. Atlanta is a good story.

I didn't literally mean from bench to starters, cmon now, i'm speaking hypothetically. These guys went from average good players to all stars in a yr. Not one of them avg a double double, not one of them avg above 18 points. They made that all star team because of their record.

Al harford avg 16 points and 7.2 rebounds, if he was on a under 500 team, he wouldn't even be in a all star conversation, same thing for teague, millsap, and korver..

Let me ask you this, do you think

1)Fisher and his staff are doing a great job?

2)The triangle is the perfect system for this group?

Those guys went from bad to mediocre to really good, all over multiple years together. Horford has been on the Hawks for about a decade, 7 for Teague, 3 for Milsap, 4 for Korver.

I think team is doing exactly as expected, very good. Wish Grant was on an upward swing. The learning is happening at a decent pace.

What did you expect for the year? You and others seem to be focused on wins and individual performances.

The Triangle is a system. No other system gonna make the players deficiencies go away.

martin wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

martin wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

martin wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

franco12 wrote:we're better than our record. I am starting to believe our 'system' is holding us back.

How so? Where is the elite talent on our roster?

Where is the elite talent on boston, orlando, atlanta,detroit. Melo is better than anyone on any of those teams.

The difference ain't the talent, its the coaching and the system. When fisher said he has to put in Sasha because of his familiarity with the triangle sytem and not because he's better than grant, you know where the problem lies.

KP, afflalo, calderone,grant,lopez,seraphin, Lance, all came from winning situations a yr ago, now a few months later they all suck and cant shoot.

When are you people going to realize the heart of the problem

When Shaq went to MDA's 7 seconds or less system, imagine if mda said, hey shaq im going to need you to starting hitting 3s, would shaq be consider a bum, or wiuld MDA be consider and idiot for even asking him.

Really man, you think that holds? Melo is an talent for sure, but also fairly dominant on only one side of the court.

Atlanta's whole starting lineup were allstars last year. Detroit got Drummond, RJackson and better all-around balance. Same with Boston and Orlando, depth and balance.

Think about it, everyone of the players that were on atlanta that went to the all star game had been in the league for several yrs, what made them above average last season, was the coach, the teams record at the time and the system, milsap and korver were bench players the year before.

You want talk about depth and balance, dude we were pumping our chest out talking about how deep we are 6 weeks ago, all of a sudden were not so deep.

Drummond is shinning in SVG system just like Howard did, and howard hasn't been the same since SVG in orlando.

Listen Martin, i respect your view on a lot of different issues, but there is no way you can sit here and tell me that this system isn't hindering a lot of our players skill set.

How exactly is a player going to be able to penetrate when the center is in the paint majority of the time, and every one else is position below the 3 point line waiting to take a mid range jumper,where's the spacing.

Fisher said it himself that the problem is the system. Damn near every player that has played under fisher, their shooting % has dramatically drop, why, because mid range shots have never been consider high percentage shots.

see this is why I have a hard time responding to your posts or believing them. For the most part the starters for Alt have been together for 3+ years, same with coach. 3 years ago... 38-44 in a weak Eastern conference. And Korver and Milsap have been starters for their respective teams for some 5 years, not just moving from the bench to starter role the season before as you suggest. That info is at your fingertips so it's kind of embarrassing to see you make that type of mistake. No doubt you would have wanted to fire Budenholzer for being under .500 for the year and/or being a rookie coach and expected a lot more.

Teams need time, luck and continuity from GM to coach to players and a dash of luck to get better and win. Atlanta is a good story.

I didn't literally mean from bench to starters, cmon now, i'm speaking hypothetically. These guys went from average good players to all stars in a yr. Not one of them avg a double double, not one of them avg above 18 points. They made that all star team because of their record.

Al harford avg 16 points and 7.2 rebounds, if he was on a under 500 team, he wouldn't even be in a all star conversation, same thing for teague, millsap, and korver..

Let me ask you this, do you think

1)Fisher and his staff are doing a great job?

2)The triangle is the perfect system for this group?

Those guys went from bad to mediocre to really good, all over multiple years together. Horford has been on the Hawks for about a decade, 7 for Teague, 3 for Milsap, 4 for Korver.

I think team is doing exactly as expected, very good. Wish Grant was on an upward swing. The learning is happening at a decent pace.

What did you expect for the year? You and others seem to be focused on wins and individual performances.

The Triangle is a system. No other system gonna make the players deficiencies go away.

What about the article in todays post from berman about fisher and the players not fully committed to the triangle, which most people who know how the offense works can plainly see the half ass commitment.

Thats the same things we were hearing last season.

Players look at fisher as a motivator and preacher. He can get a player to play hard, but he doesnt have the experience to teach, and that has cost the knicks most of the close losses. Fisher looks no better than he did last yr, and i dont believe he will be a X and O's type coach ever. Its just not his fortay.

BRIGGS wrote:The problem with Knicks comparing to almost any other club--how many actual players do you really have in place going 4ward.

KP, Melo as starters. AA, Lance, Gallo as decent bench players. Rolo, Grant, KOQ as undecided.

KP as potential franchise player. Grant as potential starter.

I'd put KOQ and Rolo into category of decent contracts (in light of next 2 offseason caps) that can be traded if necessary.

martin wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:The problem with Knicks comparing to almost any other club--how many actual players do you really have in place going 4ward.

KP, Melo as starters. AA, Lance, Gallo as decent bench players. Rolo, Grant, KOQ as undecided.

KP as potential franchise player. Grant as potential starter.

I'd put KOQ and Rolo into category of decent contracts (in light of next 2 offseason caps) that can be traded if necessary.

This is why Nalod has a level of "Acceptance" with this team. Its a work in progress I accept. Some of you treat this as the peak. Trades will be made, Free agent's considered and who the hell else knows.

I think our guys can play better as they become familiar with the triangle and work thru it. 9 new players since last year.

martin wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

martin wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

martin wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

franco12 wrote:we're better than our record. I am starting to believe our 'system' is holding us back.

How so? Where is the elite talent on our roster?

Where is the elite talent on boston, orlando, atlanta,detroit. Melo is better than anyone on any of those teams.

The difference ain't the talent, its the coaching and the system. When fisher said he has to put in Sasha because of his familiarity with the triangle sytem and not because he's better than grant, you know where the problem lies.

KP, afflalo, calderone,grant,lopez,seraphin, Lance, all came from winning situations a yr ago, now a few months later they all suck and cant shoot.

When are you people going to realize the heart of the problem

When Shaq went to MDA's 7 seconds or less system, imagine if mda said, hey shaq im going to need you to starting hitting 3s, would shaq be consider a bum, or wiuld MDA be consider and idiot for even asking him.

Really man, you think that holds? Melo is an talent for sure, but also fairly dominant on only one side of the court.

Atlanta's whole starting lineup were allstars last year. Detroit got Drummond, RJackson and better all-around balance. Same with Boston and Orlando, depth and balance.

Think about it, everyone of the players that were on atlanta that went to the all star game had been in the league for several yrs, what made them above average last season, was the coach, the teams record at the time and the system, milsap and korver were bench players the year before.

You want talk about depth and balance, dude we were pumping our chest out talking about how deep we are 6 weeks ago, all of a sudden were not so deep.

Drummond is shinning in SVG system just like Howard did, and howard hasn't been the same since SVG in orlando.

Listen Martin, i respect your view on a lot of different issues, but there is no way you can sit here and tell me that this system isn't hindering a lot of our players skill set.

How exactly is a player going to be able to penetrate when the center is in the paint majority of the time, and every one else is position below the 3 point line waiting to take a mid range jumper,where's the spacing.

Fisher said it himself that the problem is the system. Damn near every player that has played under fisher, their shooting % has dramatically drop, why, because mid range shots have never been consider high percentage shots.

see this is why I have a hard time responding to your posts or believing them. For the most part the starters for Alt have been together for 3+ years, same with coach. 3 years ago... 38-44 in a weak Eastern conference. And Korver and Milsap have been starters for their respective teams for some 5 years, not just moving from the bench to starter role the season before as you suggest. That info is at your fingertips so it's kind of embarrassing to see you make that type of mistake. No doubt you would have wanted to fire Budenholzer for being under .500 for the year and/or being a rookie coach and expected a lot more.

Teams need time, luck and continuity from GM to coach to players and a dash of luck to get better and win. Atlanta is a good story.

I didn't literally mean from bench to starters, cmon now, i'm speaking hypothetically. These guys went from average good players to all stars in a yr. Not one of them avg a double double, not one of them avg above 18 points. They made that all star team because of their record.

Al harford avg 16 points and 7.2 rebounds, if he was on a under 500 team, he wouldn't even be in a all star conversation, same thing for teague, millsap, and korver..

Let me ask you this, do you think

1)Fisher and his staff are doing a great job?

2)The triangle is the perfect system for this group?

Those guys went from bad to mediocre to really good, all over multiple years together. Horford has been on the Hawks for about a decade, 7 for Teague, 3 for Milsap, 4 for Korver.

I think team is doing exactly as expected, very good. Wish Grant was on an upward swing. The learning is happening at a decent pace.

What did you expect for the year? You and others seem to be focused on wins and individual performances.

The Triangle is a system. No other system gonna make the players deficiencies go away.

I agree with part of what your saying, what i dont agree with is that the team has shown improvement. This team wasnt together last season so how in the world can they be showing improvement when this is the 1st yr they played together.

Also, to say no other system would make the players deffeciencies go away is not tru. Unless you can be more specific on the defenciencies.

These teams you mention did not have a coach with no kind of coaching experince under their belt. So now you have an inexperince coach teaching a highly complicated system, that componds the learning curb even more.

First you have to take 3 to 4 yrs to teach fisher how to teach the triangle, that makes it even harder to determine who on the roster is getting it, and can fit, especially when he's not being taught right.

So now you keep flipping the roster and trying to find that player or player's that can get it, and so far that hasn't proven to be easy at all. You have to be a team on the rise to be an attractive destination or were going to keep getting 2nd tier talent, and the only thing the trianhle has proven is that you need two sure fire HOF in it to be successful.

The lakers knew this and steered clear away from phil, hired a no defense coach instead, what does that tell you.

martin wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

martin wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

martin wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

martin wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

franco12 wrote:we're better than our record. I am starting to believe our 'system' is holding us back.

How so? Where is the elite talent on our roster?

Where is the elite talent on boston, orlando, atlanta,detroit. Melo is better than anyone on any of those teams.

The difference ain't the talent, its the coaching and the system. When fisher said he has to put in Sasha because of his familiarity with the triangle sytem and not because he's better than grant, you know where the problem lies.

KP, afflalo, calderone,grant,lopez,seraphin, Lance, all came from winning situations a yr ago, now a few months later they all suck and cant shoot.

When are you people going to realize the heart of the problem

When Shaq went to MDA's 7 seconds or less system, imagine if mda said, hey shaq im going to need you to starting hitting 3s, would shaq be consider a bum, or wiuld MDA be consider and idiot for even asking him.

Really man, you think that holds? Melo is an talent for sure, but also fairly dominant on only one side of the court.

Atlanta's whole starting lineup were allstars last year. Detroit got Drummond, RJackson and better all-around balance. Same with Boston and Orlando, depth and balance.

Think about it, everyone of the players that were on atlanta that went to the all star game had been in the league for several yrs, what made them above average last season, was the coach, the teams record at the time and the system, milsap and korver were bench players the year before.

You want talk about depth and balance, dude we were pumping our chest out talking about how deep we are 6 weeks ago, all of a sudden were not so deep.

Drummond is shinning in SVG system just like Howard did, and howard hasn't been the same since SVG in orlando.

Listen Martin, i respect your view on a lot of different issues, but there is no way you can sit here and tell me that this system isn't hindering a lot of our players skill set.

How exactly is a player going to be able to penetrate when the center is in the paint majority of the time, and every one else is position below the 3 point line waiting to take a mid range jumper,where's the spacing.

Fisher said it himself that the problem is the system. Damn near every player that has played under fisher, their shooting % has dramatically drop, why, because mid range shots have never been consider high percentage shots.

see this is why I have a hard time responding to your posts or believing them. For the most part the starters for Alt have been together for 3+ years, same with coach. 3 years ago... 38-44 in a weak Eastern conference. And Korver and Milsap have been starters for their respective teams for some 5 years, not just moving from the bench to starter role the season before as you suggest. That info is at your fingertips so it's kind of embarrassing to see you make that type of mistake. No doubt you would have wanted to fire Budenholzer for being under .500 for the year and/or being a rookie coach and expected a lot more.

Teams need time, luck and continuity from GM to coach to players and a dash of luck to get better and win. Atlanta is a good story.

I didn't literally mean from bench to starters, cmon now, i'm speaking hypothetically. These guys went from average good players to all stars in a yr. Not one of them avg a double double, not one of them avg above 18 points. They made that all star team because of their record.

Al harford avg 16 points and 7.2 rebounds, if he was on a under 500 team, he wouldn't even be in a all star conversation, same thing for teague, millsap, and korver..

Let me ask you this, do you think

1)Fisher and his staff are doing a great job?

2)The triangle is the perfect system for this group?

Those guys went from bad to mediocre to really good, all over multiple years together. Horford has been on the Hawks for about a decade, 7 for Teague, 3 for Milsap, 4 for Korver.

I think team is doing exactly as expected, very good. Wish Grant was on an upward swing. The learning is happening at a decent pace.

What did you expect for the year? You and others seem to be focused on wins and individual performances.

The Triangle is a system. No other system gonna make the players deficiencies go away.

I agree with part of what your saying, what i dont agree with is that the team has shown improvement. This team wasnt together last season so how in the world can they be showing improvement when this is the 1st yr they played together.

Also, to say no other system would make the players deffeciencies go away is not tru. Unless you can be more specific on the defenciencies.

These teams you mention did not have a coach with no kind of coaching experince under their belt. So now you have an inexperince coach teaching a highly complicated system, that componds the learning curb even more.

First you have to take 3 to 4 yrs to teach fisher how to teach the triangle, that makes it even harder to determine who on the roster is getting it, and can fit, especially when he's not being taught right.

So now you keep flipping the roster and trying to find that player or player's that can get it, and so far that hasn't proven to be easy at all. You have to be a team on the rise to be an attractive destination or were going to keep getting 2nd tier talent, and the only thing the trianhle has proven is that you need two sure fire HOF in it to be successful.

The lakers knew this and steered clear away from phil, hired a no defense coach instead, what does that tell you.

And yet Fish, with a team that has a lot LESS talent, is not far away from those other coaches. And you think that is the problem?

Realistically I am counting this as year 1 of where the Knicks and Fish start, last year was an obvious throw-way. When you say that it will take Fish 3-4 years, that's just your uninformed guess, nothing more.

How long should it take 5 new starters to gell? 20 games? 40? Give me your number. I say it's more like 60-82.

Individual player progress: LT, KP, Melo seem to be all different than last year or beginning of this year. Gallo has faded a bit but we have seen good things from him early on. Grant has been doo-doo. I feel like Rolo has not been healthy and has also not been engaged like we expected him to be, same with AA. DWill, Seraphin, and KOQ have under performed so far. Jose is not in long term picture.

I am waiting and watching and not over expecting.

we can be better, and you're in denial if you don't think so. Adjustments can be made, I've seen each one of these players step up and play at a very high level, but the rotations are inconsistent, the roles are inconsistent, and more importantly,the triangle is inconsistent.

I wish I had a stat for Fishers "OUT OF TIME OUT" plays in the clutch, i don't think i'm going out on a limb when i say it's very very bad. I mean he can't even select the proper inbound passer, how many botched lance thomas inbound passes do you have to see to know, thats not a good option at all.

Making the Playoff should be very high on the list, by any means, no draft pick and 20 mill in cap(a drop in the bucket).