fishmike wrote:

martin wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

martin wrote:

WaltLongmire wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

martin wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:My problem with fisher's rotation is the token minutes. The tenth man should never see more than 10 minutes, 9 guys have to see 15 minutes or more, if yu cant do that, sit him for the game.

who came up with these absurd rules? You don't consider fouls, injuries, minutes, match-ups, rookies, team make-up and other incredibly obvious stuff?

Just about every NBA coach disagrees with you by quick perusal of boxscores.

Are you telling me that you agree with his rotation and the way he manages minutes, if so, you must be related to him.

Our situation is a lot different form other teams. More than half the roster is new, we really haven't establish a core.I don't think theres a team in the league that has a 100% bill of health like the knicks have right now.

We don't have specialist, like a lock down defender, or a 3 point sniper, or relentless rebounder, just about all of our players can guard at least 2 positions, and are avg shooters. If you can't find a decent match up with in your 10 man rotation(excluding foul trouble and injuries)then you have to look at the guy who put the roster together. The last 3 guys on the bench are suppose to be reserves, not part of the rotation.

I think phil did a solid job, and fisher is making phil look like he didn't. Fisher playing grant the other day for 3 minutes was a blow to his confidence for sure. During that 3 minutes, he touch the ball 3 times, grab a rebound and was back on the bench done for the night..What was the purpose

I'm thinking that Martin is just reacting to a response from you which seemingly invents a hard and fast rule on rotations that might not have any basis in the reality that is the NBA.

I could be wrong, though.

Yup. Disagreeing with the original post does not mean I agree with Fisher's rotations.

Knicks haven't settled down yet and I expect it to take just about the whole season or more to do so. It's the absurd hard and fast minutes and # of rotation players that makes no sense.

I knew he would have a difficult time settling in on a rotation, that's to be expected with a healthy new squad.

If you only have token minutes from a player, what exactly are you taking back to the film room to break down and asses what you have, if it's only 4 or 5 possessions.

Token minutes are like toe testers to see if a player can perform and earn more. Or they are there cause you need to give regular guys a break cause of heavy minutes, 3 games in 4 nights or foul trouble. Or cause you are out of good options and why not.

Token minutes also test to see if a player can do what a coach asks. If you know you are only going to get a 4-5 minute stretch that typically comes with an instruction (that Knick fans arent privvy to). So when Fisher send in KOQ for 5 minutes and says "keep a body on player X" and KOQ does that, and doesnt seem to have much impact that may earn him more, despite not showing much in the box score. Now if KOQ looks for his own shot, tries to do too much and loses his guy a couple times the effect is negative in the perception of the coaching staff, even if he's had what appears to be a solid run.

There is so much info we just dont have.

All about communicating and keeping players focused so they are ready when called upon. Not easy to get into rythmn when mins are short so best to have sense of purpose. No such thing as token minutes in my mind. Either critical stints however long in undecided games or chaotic garbage time which is a useless gauge for the most part

meloanyk wrote:

fishmike wrote:

martin wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

martin wrote:

WaltLongmire wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

martin wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:My problem with fisher's rotation is the token minutes. The tenth man should never see more than 10 minutes, 9 guys have to see 15 minutes or more, if yu cant do that, sit him for the game.

who came up with these absurd rules? You don't consider fouls, injuries, minutes, match-ups, rookies, team make-up and other incredibly obvious stuff?

Just about every NBA coach disagrees with you by quick perusal of boxscores.

Are you telling me that you agree with his rotation and the way he manages minutes, if so, you must be related to him.

Our situation is a lot different form other teams. More than half the roster is new, we really haven't establish a core.I don't think theres a team in the league that has a 100% bill of health like the knicks have right now.

We don't have specialist, like a lock down defender, or a 3 point sniper, or relentless rebounder, just about all of our players can guard at least 2 positions, and are avg shooters. If you can't find a decent match up with in your 10 man rotation(excluding foul trouble and injuries)then you have to look at the guy who put the roster together. The last 3 guys on the bench are suppose to be reserves, not part of the rotation.

I think phil did a solid job, and fisher is making phil look like he didn't. Fisher playing grant the other day for 3 minutes was a blow to his confidence for sure. During that 3 minutes, he touch the ball 3 times, grab a rebound and was back on the bench done for the night..What was the purpose

I'm thinking that Martin is just reacting to a response from you which seemingly invents a hard and fast rule on rotations that might not have any basis in the reality that is the NBA.

I could be wrong, though.

Yup. Disagreeing with the original post does not mean I agree with Fisher's rotations.

Knicks haven't settled down yet and I expect it to take just about the whole season or more to do so. It's the absurd hard and fast minutes and # of rotation players that makes no sense.

I knew he would have a difficult time settling in on a rotation, that's to be expected with a healthy new squad.

If you only have token minutes from a player, what exactly are you taking back to the film room to break down and asses what you have, if it's only 4 or 5 possessions.

Token minutes are like toe testers to see if a player can perform and earn more. Or they are there cause you need to give regular guys a break cause of heavy minutes, 3 games in 4 nights or foul trouble. Or cause you are out of good options and why not.

Token minutes also test to see if a player can do what a coach asks. If you know you are only going to get a 4-5 minute stretch that typically comes with an instruction (that Knick fans arent privvy to). So when Fisher send in KOQ for 5 minutes and says "keep a body on player X" and KOQ does that, and doesnt seem to have much impact that may earn him more, despite not showing much in the box score. Now if KOQ looks for his own shot, tries to do too much and loses his guy a couple times the effect is negative in the perception of the coaching staff, even if he's had what appears to be a solid run.

There is so much info we just dont have.

All about communicating and keeping players focused so they are ready when called upon. Not easy to get into rythmn when mins are short so best to have sense of purpose. No such thing as token minutes in my mind. Either critical stints however long in undecided games or chaotic garbage time which is a useless gauge for the most part

You can spin this anyway you like, the bottom line is that, it hasn't help the player, and we are losing more than winning. 90% of the league plays 8 to 10 guys, you know it, I know it, and fisher knows it, so please stop trying to justify giving a guy those minutes and expect production.
Especially when you agree that, DWILL, And GRANT should see way more minutes. If you can't give a guy solid minutes, sit him until you can or the opportunity presents it's self. stop giving guys minutes so he doesn't feel left out (this isn't pop warner)

knicks1248 wrote:

meloanyk wrote:

fishmike wrote:

martin wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

martin wrote:

WaltLongmire wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

martin wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:My problem with fisher's rotation is the token minutes. The tenth man should never see more than 10 minutes, 9 guys have to see 15 minutes or more, if yu cant do that, sit him for the game.

who came up with these absurd rules? You don't consider fouls, injuries, minutes, match-ups, rookies, team make-up and other incredibly obvious stuff?

Just about every NBA coach disagrees with you by quick perusal of boxscores.

Are you telling me that you agree with his rotation and the way he manages minutes, if so, you must be related to him.

Our situation is a lot different form other teams. More than half the roster is new, we really haven't establish a core.I don't think theres a team in the league that has a 100% bill of health like the knicks have right now.

We don't have specialist, like a lock down defender, or a 3 point sniper, or relentless rebounder, just about all of our players can guard at least 2 positions, and are avg shooters. If you can't find a decent match up with in your 10 man rotation(excluding foul trouble and injuries)then you have to look at the guy who put the roster together. The last 3 guys on the bench are suppose to be reserves, not part of the rotation.

I think phil did a solid job, and fisher is making phil look like he didn't. Fisher playing grant the other day for 3 minutes was a blow to his confidence for sure. During that 3 minutes, he touch the ball 3 times, grab a rebound and was back on the bench done for the night..What was the purpose

I'm thinking that Martin is just reacting to a response from you which seemingly invents a hard and fast rule on rotations that might not have any basis in the reality that is the NBA.

I could be wrong, though.

Yup. Disagreeing with the original post does not mean I agree with Fisher's rotations.

Knicks haven't settled down yet and I expect it to take just about the whole season or more to do so. It's the absurd hard and fast minutes and # of rotation players that makes no sense.

I knew he would have a difficult time settling in on a rotation, that's to be expected with a healthy new squad.

If you only have token minutes from a player, what exactly are you taking back to the film room to break down and asses what you have, if it's only 4 or 5 possessions.

Token minutes are like toe testers to see if a player can perform and earn more. Or they are there cause you need to give regular guys a break cause of heavy minutes, 3 games in 4 nights or foul trouble. Or cause you are out of good options and why not.

Token minutes also test to see if a player can do what a coach asks. If you know you are only going to get a 4-5 minute stretch that typically comes with an instruction (that Knick fans arent privvy to). So when Fisher send in KOQ for 5 minutes and says "keep a body on player X" and KOQ does that, and doesnt seem to have much impact that may earn him more, despite not showing much in the box score. Now if KOQ looks for his own shot, tries to do too much and loses his guy a couple times the effect is negative in the perception of the coaching staff, even if he's had what appears to be a solid run.

There is so much info we just dont have.

All about communicating and keeping players focused so they are ready when called upon. Not easy to get into rythmn when mins are short so best to have sense of purpose. No such thing as token minutes in my mind. Either critical stints however long in undecided games or chaotic garbage time which is a useless gauge for the most part

You can spin this anyway you like, the bottom line is that, it hasn't help the player, and we are losing more than winning. 90% of the league plays 8 to 10 guys, you know it, I know it, and fisher knows it, so please stop trying to justify giving a guy those minutes and expect production.
Especially when you agree that, DWILL, And GRANT should see way more minutes. If you can't give a guy solid minutes, sit him until you can or the opportunity presents it's self. stop giving guys minutes so he doesn't feel left out (this isn't pop warner)

We are only 25 games in the season, Fisher has not given 10 players 24 minute of playing time once this season to test the strength of the roster or a 10 man rotation. Fisher has been experimenting for 25 games on what players could play well with Melo 35 minute, KP 28 minute, and Calderon 28 minute in a lineup. And its not looking good we are 3-7 in our last 10 games .. Melo at the 4 spot is a no no, increasing Calderon minute is a no no, decreasing Grant minute plus giving the rookie short spurts in n out of a game like our rookie is a veteran isn't bright coaching.

Rolo n Quinn should be averaging 26 minute together in the same lineup.
Serafin n KP should be averaging 22 minute together in the same lineup.
Grant, Gallo, and Lance should be averaging 24 minutes together in the same lineup.

There are laker teams that phil had that did not win chips, or it all came together in the end of a season. Having found a knick team in need, Phil blew up a roster to start over.
25 games into a new start its not unreasonable to say "they are not getting it yet".

Even if they do, what is the expectations?

To me, .500 with a 20 year old 7-3 basically a double-double machine with big upside is freaking great!!!

Nalod wrote:Has Fish come to his senses, or has good coaching "fixed" O'Quinn and him fitting better into the system?
In my view, hesitant players get slow. The triangle like any system need not just be learned, but instinctive. That takes time.

There are laker teams that phil had that did not win chips, or it all came together in the end of a season. Having found a knick team in need, Phil blew up a roster to start over.
25 games into a new start its not unreasonable to say "they are not getting it yet".

Even if they do, what is the expectations?

To me, .500 with a 20 year old 7-3 basically a double-double machine with big upside is freaking great!!!

Fisher is no Phill. We need to stop comparing what Phil did to what this dude is doing. Phil is a natural; mAny who spoke with dude end up understanding the system within a few sessions. If Phil were the coach, he WOULD never use a 14 men rotation.

Knicks1969 wrote:

Nalod wrote:Has Fish come to his senses, or has good coaching "fixed" O'Quinn and him fitting better into the system?
In my view, hesitant players get slow. The triangle like any system need not just be learned, but instinctive. That takes time.

There are laker teams that phil had that did not win chips, or it all came together in the end of a season. Having found a knick team in need, Phil blew up a roster to start over.
25 games into a new start its not unreasonable to say "they are not getting it yet".

Even if they do, what is the expectations?

To me, .500 with a 20 year old 7-3 basically a double-double machine with big upside is freaking great!!!

Fisher is no Phill. We need to stop comparing what Phil did to what this dude is doing. Phil is a natural; mAny who spoke with dude end up understanding the system within a few sessions. If Phil were the coach, he WOULD never use a 14 men rotation.

Fisher is doing very well and the team plays hard. Tonight will be telling as they havent had much practice time. They always look better after some practices.

knicks1248 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Knicks1969 wrote:

Nalod wrote:Has Fish come to his senses, or has good coaching "fixed" O'Quinn and him fitting better into the system?
In my view, hesitant players get slow. The triangle like any system need not just be learned, but instinctive. That takes time.

There are laker teams that phil had that did not win chips, or it all came together in the end of a season. Having found a knick team in need, Phil blew up a roster to start over.
25 games into a new start its not unreasonable to say "they are not getting it yet".

Even if they do, what is the expectations?

To me, .500 with a 20 year old 7-3 basically a double-double machine with big upside is freaking great!!!

Fisher is no Phill. We need to stop comparing what Phil did to what this dude is doing. Phil is a natural; mAny who spoke with dude end up understanding the system within a few sessions. If Phil were the coach, he WOULD never use a 14 men rotation.

really? When was Phil handed a new roster in a rebuild? You have ZERO data to back up that statement. Phil got a lot of guys involved, including when playing 3 centers (Longly, Perdue and some other big white doofus) when he didnt have one that was very good.

Fisher is doing very well and the team plays hard. Tonight will be telling as they havent had much practice time. They always look better after some practices.

They actually do.

As much as i question Fishers common sense, I really don't pin the all the botched rotations totally on him, that's why you hire assistants. Phil doesn't have a very good coaching staff, or a creative one.

I maybe in the minority, but i think this team is under achieving a little for 2 reasons. 1)no one expected KP to start of this good 2)no one expected us to have a healthy roster.

But back to the topic at hand

I think we are a much better team when Grant, Dwill, and Quinn play 13 minutes or more... bottom line, a couple of bad plays shouldn't warrant a significant drop in minutes or a string of DNP CD

Gospel to my ears. I called for no less then 15 minutes per for KO, DWill, and Grant.

For once, I would like for the oach to include DWill and KO in the lineup with KP and Carmelo. Put Carmelo on the ball and let him find the open man.

Knicks1969 wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Knicks1969 wrote:

Nalod wrote:Has Fish come to his senses, or has good coaching "fixed" O'Quinn and him fitting better into the system?
In my view, hesitant players get slow. The triangle like any system need not just be learned, but instinctive. That takes time.

There are laker teams that phil had that did not win chips, or it all came together in the end of a season. Having found a knick team in need, Phil blew up a roster to start over.
25 games into a new start its not unreasonable to say "they are not getting it yet".

Even if they do, what is the expectations?

To me, .500 with a 20 year old 7-3 basically a double-double machine with big upside is freaking great!!!

Fisher is no Phill. We need to stop comparing what Phil did to what this dude is doing. Phil is a natural; mAny who spoke with dude end up understanding the system within a few sessions. If Phil were the coach, he WOULD never use a 14 men rotation.

really? When was Phil handed a new roster in a rebuild? You have ZERO data to back up that statement. Phil got a lot of guys involved, including when playing 3 centers (Longly, Perdue and some other big white doofus) when he didnt have one that was very good.

Fisher is doing very well and the team plays hard. Tonight will be telling as they havent had much practice time. They always look better after some practices.

They actually do.

As much as i question Fishers common sense, I really don't pin the all the botched rotations totally on him, that's why you hire assistants. Phil doesn't have a very good coaching staff, or a creative one.

I maybe in the minority, but i think this team is under achieving a little for 2 reasons. 1)no one expected KP to start of this good 2)no one expected us to have a healthy roster.

But back to the topic at hand

I think we are a much better team when Grant, Dwill, and Quinn play 13 minutes or more... bottom line, a couple of bad plays shouldn't warrant a significant drop in minutes or a string of DNP CD

Gospel to my ears. I called for no less then 15 minutes per for KO, DWill, and Grant.

For once, I would like for the oach to include DWill and KO in the lineup with KP and Carmelo. Put Carmelo on the ball and let him find the open man.

Fisher, after practice Monday, stressed he stayed with what was working, which is what he usually does.

“I try to. It’s more fair to the team than getting stuck with a particular guy because that’s what you normally do. Sometimes it’s worked for us. Sometimes it hasn’t,” Fisher said. “I know as a player, you never wanted to feel like you don’t have an opportunity because everything was already set. Every player should feel like they should be ready every single night.”

Fisher didn’t want the rookie reading too much into one DNP. He pointed to vets Kyle O’Quinn, Sasha Vujacic and Derrick Williams, who have endured DNPs.

“Just stay ready. For your entire career there are going to be theses ups and downs that can break you or make you,” Fisher said. “When the opportunity comes back around, you capitalize, and that shows a level of professionalism and sustainability that as a young player you have to develop. So there isn’t anything he’s doing wrong, it’s just night to night I’m going with what fits best.”

This is such a catch 22, it's a big difference between being ready and being in rhythm. Fisher has always been adamant about not letting players sit too long, because he doesn't want them to get rusty, and that's going to be the death of his coaching career if he continues that philosophy.

Knicks1969 wrote:I am just having a hard time wth that concept. Young players today are efferent then before. They pay a lot of attention to their stats, because they know that goes towards their next big pay. Playing a dude inconsistent minutes is certainly not enviable

Another reason to like KP.

Forgot who the writer was...may have been someone with the Times. Porzingis was asked about some kind of statistical stuff from a game. The writer was surprised when Kristaps indicated that he had not looked at the stats...and saw this as a positive thing about his priorities.

Players should know when they've been good or bad in a particular game. The reporter's reaction to KP's comment makes me think that too many players are more concerned with their stats than they are with their team winning.

Guys looking at stats with their next payday in mind and not evaluating those stats with the idea they can use them to improve their games and help their teams win are not the kind of guys I want on my team.

I'm kind of hoping that this is your own view of things, and that Jerian is not at home crying about how a DNP is going to screw up how much he gets next contract.

WaltLongmire wrote:

SupremeCommander wrote:who would have thought that if you make a guy earn his minutes that he might actually rise to the challenge?

Very old school way of thinking in this age of entitlement, fragile self-esteem, and participation trophies.

lol