CrushAlot wrote:

mreinman wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

mreinman wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

mreinman wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:Damn near every player traded or not brought back from last season is shooting a much higher % despite being on new teams

Every new player we have this season is shooting well below their avg (dramatically in some cases) this season.

So what does that tell you?

Which player? Shump is out. Bargs is out. Shved is in Europe. Cole doesn't play. Larkin and Jason Smith? Amare has played in two games I believe. I checked on Pablo because I forgot what team he is on but he is shooting worse for the Clips. Wear, Hardaway, and Dalembert aren't in the nba right now. JR is shooting worse then last year. Jason Smith and Quincy Acy are shooting better but both are playing significantly less minutes a game. Acy has played just over a 100 minutes on the season. The only guy that is shooting and playing a lot better in my opinion is Larkin. Larkin wasn't that good as a knick and he was given a lot of minutes.

Acy, Jason Smith, Larkin

Sammy was so much worse here than he was anywhere else.

players here like Koq, Seraphin, Rolo, Melo are all way below their career efficiencies.

Larkin was not good on the knicks while given a lot of minutes. Why does he look so much better this year?

Acy is playing 10 minutes a game and has played in 11 games. Is that something to trash the triangle on? Smith is doing better but his role is smaller. In his case there are other variables ( he has better teammates ). The majority of the guys on the team that moved on are shooting a worse percentage or are out of the league. That is a fact. Which is opposite of what the op said. Also, Sam is just not a good pro. He got cut from the Mavs when they were desperate for a center and he knew the system. Wasnt he the guy that said he used training camp to get himself into shape this year?

Acy is about the same.

The point with Sammy is the nose dive his efficiency was even in the same year. Coming back that he is out of the league is not an argument. He is not a good player.

Which players did we bring in that increased their efficiency and which players that we sent away are doing better?

I thought the point of the thread was that almost all of the guys traded or that moved on were shooting better not playing in the triangle. That was what the op said. It wasn't accurate.

I think that a majority of the players that we brought in are doing worse (less efficient) and the majority of the players that left (and that have enough of a sample size on their new teams) are playing better. Or more efficient.

Damn near every player traded or not brought back from last season is shooting a much higher % despite being on new teams

I checked on the guys that left. They either are shooting at a lower percentage, are not playing or are out of the league. Larkin is playing better. Smith and Acy in much smaller roles are shooting a better percentage. Acy does not play much though. Not sure how that translates to the majority of the players that left are shooting better as the op said. So I guess if 3/11 is a majority then I stand corrected.

name some players that support your argument. Most players who's shooting can be quantified (they are playing) are shooting more efficiently on other teams and most players that we brought in are shooting worse.

AA - same
Seraphin - worse
williams - worse
koq - worse
Rolo - worse
Jose - worse initially now better (perhaps it takes a year of a big dip and then it comes around? Not denying that)
Melo - worse

This def something to this. Is it just the learning curve or at least a big part of it? Players need 50-80 games? Perhaps.

mreinman wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

mreinman wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

mreinman wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

mreinman wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:Damn near every player traded or not brought back from last season is shooting a much higher % despite being on new teams

Every new player we have this season is shooting well below their avg (dramatically in some cases) this season.

So what does that tell you?

Which player? Shump is out. Bargs is out. Shved is in Europe. Cole doesn't play. Larkin and Jason Smith? Amare has played in two games I believe. I checked on Pablo because I forgot what team he is on but he is shooting worse for the Clips. Wear, Hardaway, and Dalembert aren't in the nba right now. JR is shooting worse then last year. Jason Smith and Quincy Acy are shooting better but both are playing significantly less minutes a game. Acy has played just over a 100 minutes on the season. The only guy that is shooting and playing a lot better in my opinion is Larkin. Larkin wasn't that good as a knick and he was given a lot of minutes.

Acy, Jason Smith, Larkin

Sammy was so much worse here than he was anywhere else.

players here like Koq, Seraphin, Rolo, Melo are all way below their career efficiencies.

Larkin was not good on the knicks while given a lot of minutes. Why does he look so much better this year?

Acy is playing 10 minutes a game and has played in 11 games. Is that something to trash the triangle on? Smith is doing better but his role is smaller. In his case there are other variables ( he has better teammates ). The majority of the guys on the team that moved on are shooting a worse percentage or are out of the league. That is a fact. Which is opposite of what the op said. Also, Sam is just not a good pro. He got cut from the Mavs when they were desperate for a center and he knew the system. Wasnt he the guy that said he used training camp to get himself into shape this year?

Acy is about the same.

The point with Sammy is the nose dive his efficiency was even in the same year. Coming back that he is out of the league is not an argument. He is not a good player.

Which players did we bring in that increased their efficiency and which players that we sent away are doing better?

I thought the point of the thread was that almost all of the guys traded or that moved on were shooting better not playing in the triangle. That was what the op said. It wasn't accurate.

I think that a majority of the players that we brought in are doing worse (less efficient) and the majority of the players that left (and that have enough of a sample size on their new teams) are playing better. Or more efficient.

Damn near every player traded or not brought back from last season is shooting a much higher % despite being on new teams

I checked on the guys that left. They either are shooting at a lower percentage, are not playing or are out of the league. Larkin is playing better. Smith and Acy in much smaller roles are shooting a better percentage. Acy does not play much though. Not sure how that translates to the majority of the players that left are shooting better as the op said. So I guess if 3/11 is a majority then I stand corrected.

name some players that support your argument. Most players who's shooting can be quantified (they are playing) are shooting more efficiently on other teams and most players that we brought in are shooting worse.

AA - same
Seraphin - worse
williams - worse
koq - worse
Rolo - worse
Jose - worse initially now better (perhaps it takes a year of a big dip and then it comes around? Not denying that)
Melo - worse

This def something to this. Is it just the learning curve or at least a big part of it? Players need 50-80 games? Perhaps.

CrushAlot wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:Damn near every player traded or not brought back from last season is shooting a much higher % despite being on new teams

Every new player we have this season is shooting well below their avg (dramatically in some cases) this season.

So what does that tell you?

Which player? Shump is out. Bargs is out. Shved is in Europe. Cole doesn't play. Larkin and Jason Smith? Amare has played in two games I believe. I checked on Pablo because I forgot what team he is on but he is shooting worse for the Clips. Wear, Hardaway, and Dalembert aren't in the nba right now. JR is shooting worse then last year. Jason Smith and Quincy Acy are shooting better but both are playing significantly less minutes a game. Acy has played just over a 100 minutes on the season. The only guy that is shooting and playing a lot better in my opinion is Larkin. Larkin wasn't that good as a knick and he was given a lot of minutes.

I couldn't check on the players that are not in the league, but jr's and shumps numbers were better immediately after the trade. My point is that this system does benefit it's players as it's suppose to.

AA has to create his own mid range shots on almost all of his touches

mreinman wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

mreinman wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

mreinman wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

mreinman wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

mreinman wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:Damn near every player traded or not brought back from last season is shooting a much higher % despite being on new teams

Every new player we have this season is shooting well below their avg (dramatically in some cases) this season.

So what does that tell you?

Which player? Shump is out. Bargs is out. Shved is in Europe. Cole doesn't play. Larkin and Jason Smith? Amare has played in two games I believe. I checked on Pablo because I forgot what team he is on but he is shooting worse for the Clips. Wear, Hardaway, and Dalembert aren't in the nba right now. JR is shooting worse then last year. Jason Smith and Quincy Acy are shooting better but both are playing significantly less minutes a game. Acy has played just over a 100 minutes on the season. The only guy that is shooting and playing a lot better in my opinion is Larkin. Larkin wasn't that good as a knick and he was given a lot of minutes.

Acy, Jason Smith, Larkin

Sammy was so much worse here than he was anywhere else.

players here like Koq, Seraphin, Rolo, Melo are all way below their career efficiencies.

Larkin was not good on the knicks while given a lot of minutes. Why does he look so much better this year?

Acy is playing 10 minutes a game and has played in 11 games. Is that something to trash the triangle on? Smith is doing better but his role is smaller. In his case there are other variables ( he has better teammates ). The majority of the guys on the team that moved on are shooting a worse percentage or are out of the league. That is a fact. Which is opposite of what the op said. Also, Sam is just not a good pro. He got cut from the Mavs when they were desperate for a center and he knew the system. Wasnt he the guy that said he used training camp to get himself into shape this year?

Acy is about the same.

The point with Sammy is the nose dive his efficiency was even in the same year. Coming back that he is out of the league is not an argument. He is not a good player.

Which players did we bring in that increased their efficiency and which players that we sent away are doing better?

I thought the point of the thread was that almost all of the guys traded or that moved on were shooting better not playing in the triangle. That was what the op said. It wasn't accurate.

I think that a majority of the players that we brought in are doing worse (less efficient) and the majority of the players that left (and that have enough of a sample size on their new teams) are playing better. Or more efficient.

Damn near every player traded or not brought back from last season is shooting a much higher % despite being on new teams

I checked on the guys that left. They either are shooting at a lower percentage, are not playing or are out of the league. Larkin is playing better. Smith and Acy in much smaller roles are shooting a better percentage. Acy does not play much though. Not sure how that translates to the majority of the players that left are shooting better as the op said. So I guess if 3/11 is a majority then I stand corrected.

name some players that support your argument. Most players who's shooting can be quantified (they are playing) are shooting more efficiently on other teams and most players that we brought in are shooting worse.

AA - same
Seraphin - worse
williams - worse
koq - worse
Rolo - worse
Jose - worse initially now better (perhaps it takes a year of a big dip and then it comes around? Not denying that)
Melo - worse

This def something to this. Is it just the learning curve or at least a big part of it? Players need 50-80 games? Perhaps.

I already did name guys. I can quote my post if you didn't see it. I was responding to the ops claim that all of the guys that left are shooting better.

maybe that should be modified to say that the players that left that have played enough minutes that there is at least a sample are mostly doing worse.

Same with the players that we brought in.

If you put Porzingis or Melo in that spot to have one of them make the passing decisions, it'd make more sense.

If you used the same Triangle formations but spread the spacing to acknowledge the existence of the three point line, it'd make more sense.

I think the Triangle could be modified to be effective in the modern NBA. The Warriors and Spurs use aspects of it.

I think some of this is on Fisher, some of this is on the personnel here, the lack of consistency and creativity at the PG. And some of it is Melo recovering from a his knee surgery and trying to get his legs back. If he can shoot 45% at his more normal efficiency, the team will look much better.

crzymdups wrote:I don't love the system - it doesn't have good spacing and it puts the ball in the hands of players like Seraphin and Rolo and asks them to make passing decisions they just aren't capable of making.

If you put Porzingis or Melo in that spot to have one of them make the passing decisions, it'd make more sense.

If you used the same Triangle formations but spread the spacing to acknowledge the existence of the three point line, it'd make more sense.

I think the Triangle could be modified to be effective in the modern NBA. The Warriors and Spurs use aspects of it.

I think some of this is on Fisher, some of this is on the personnel here, the lack of consistency and creativity at the PG. And some of it is Melo recovering from a his knee surgery and trying to get his legs back. If he can shoot 45% at his more normal efficiency, the team will look much better.

This is spot on, there are adjustments that need to be made to make it better for everyone, and i don't seen them being made.

The fact that melo stated in his post game interview, that the game plan was to switch on everything last night, and despite getting torch for most of the game by deron, felton, 37 yr old Dirk, and recovering 30% shooter wesley mathews, there wasn't one single adjustment made until the middle of the 4th qtr.

That's incredible, when you have the 6th highest paid coaching staff in the NBA not making the proper adjustments and players are regressing

nixluva wrote:What is this BULL ISH about the modern NBA??? Phil was just coaching LA in 2011 playoffs and took the Knicks job in 2014. The league hasn't changed that much in the 2012, 2013 and 2014 seasons Phil was out of BBall. People act like LeBron, KD, Curry, Harden, Westbrook etc, weren't around when Phil was winning games in the NBA running the Triangle. Phil was in THIS ERA! Space and Pace Small Ball was around when Phil was coaching.

In 2011 you had maybe 2 or 3 players in your starting line up that could knock down a 3 consistently, now a days you have 4 or 5. If your not a stretch 4, you probably will be on the bench (see KOQ).

The NBA games are won by the 3 point line, fast break points, and FT's, obviously defense and rebounds also matter, but not nearly as much.

You can't defend fast breaks consistently, and you can't rebound wide open shots that go in more than not.

The half court game is so lame, because the Center position is weak, post ups are as rare as a unicorn, and mid range shots don't win games.

In just about all of our wins, it was the 3 ball that carried us, and our defense in defending the 3. The game has change a lot in 4 yrs, and everytime i listen to a commentator, they remind me of the dramatic increase in 3 point fg attempts.

4 yrs ago teams would combine to shoot 20 to 25 3's per game. Last night the GSW and Pacers commbine to shoot 52 3's

knicks1248 wrote:

nixluva wrote:What is this BULL ISH about the modern NBA??? Phil was just coaching LA in 2011 playoffs and took the Knicks job in 2014. The league hasn't changed that much in the 2012, 2013 and 2014 seasons Phil was out of BBall. People act like LeBron, KD, Curry, Harden, Westbrook etc, weren't around when Phil was winning games in the NBA running the Triangle. Phil was in THIS ERA! Space and Pace Small Ball was around when Phil was coaching.

In 2011 you had maybe 2 or 3 players in your starting line up that could knock down a 3 consistently, now a days you have 4 or 5. If your not a stretch 4, you probably will be on the bench (see KOQ).

The NBA games are won by the 3 point line, fast break points, and FT's, obviously defense and rebounds also matter, but not nearly as much.

You can't defend fast breaks consistently, and you can't rebound wide open shots that go in more than not.

The half court game is so lame, because the Center position is weak, post ups are as rare as a unicorn, and mid range shots don't win games.

In just about all of our wins, it was the 3 ball that carried us, and our defense in defending the 3. The game has change a lot in 4 yrs, and everytime i listen to a commentator, they remind me of the dramatic increase in 3 point fg attempts.

4 yrs ago teams would combine to shoot 20 to 25 3's per game. Last night the GSW and Pacers commbine to shoot 52 3's

CrushAlot wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:Damn near every player traded or not brought back from last season is shooting a much higher % despite being on new teams

Every new player we have this season is shooting well below their avg (dramatically in some cases) this season.

So what does that tell you?

Which player? Shump is out. Bargs is out. Shved is in Europe. Cole doesn't play. Larkin and Jason Smith? Amare has played in two games I believe. I checked on Pablo because I forgot what team he is on but he is shooting worse for the Clips. Wear, Hardaway, and Dalembert aren't in the nba right now. JR is shooting worse then last year. Jason Smith and Quincy Acy are shooting better but both are playing significantly less minutes a game. Acy has played just over a 100 minutes on the season. The only guy that is shooting and playing a lot better in my opinion is Larkin. Larkin wasn't that good as a knick and he was given a lot of minutes.

This thread has a lot to do with players adjustments on new team in just 20 games.
Some players mention above are not put in the game to score, especially when the team show no concept of having a Gellin-system. The last time we had a Gellin-system on the court each night was when coach Jason Kidd were a player.

At the start of the season, I thought Fisher was going to keep coaching a Gellin-system first, then after the gellin look good then fit it into the triangle offense. We were having success in the preseason games using a starter-unit then a 2nd-unit in each game with the new 8 players added to roster.
Fisher stop using the 2nd-unit players before 10 games in the season .. when Fisher start rotating 10 players in n out of the 2nd unit lineup the players confidence dropped low to automatically assure us there will be no more Gellin in the 2nd unit lineup. I notice in several games Fisher has been having problems mixing the bench-players in a lineup with starters .. Lance Thomas should be the 6th man, and Serafin should be the 7th man, then Gallo as the 8th man. Gallo plays a better offensive game when 3 or 4 beench players are in the lineup.
The only Bench players that play well with the starters are Lance n Serafin

bigbasketballs wrote:

meloanyk wrote:All systems need time and talent to succeed.

Nature's shortest short term memory is sport's fan short term memory.

2014-15 Cleveland Cavaliers were 19-20 at one point.

Not saying the Knicks will be better than they are. They might be worse.

Just too soon to tell. Things can change a dime as quickly as the did when they were on a 4 game winning streak.

Miami's first year with the big 3: http://espn.go.com/nba/team/schedule/_/name/mia/year/2011/miami-heat

10-8 through end of November, and their schedule doesn't look that tough but I can't remember what was going on back then (no less last night).

yellowboy90 wrote:Jason Smith is shooting similar shots as last year, the question is if he is being assisted more?

wow! nice catch!

He is being assisted 20% more at a whopping 94%. Whats also wierd is that he is taking many more 16-23 footers.