I remember something from Jackson last year about (think it was after Melo finally shut things down) the team not having the individual talent to do certain things, and that this is one reason they stressed the Triangle so much with the squad they had.

If Phil was the GM of GS with that roster I don't think he would be forcing them to play a certain way, and you can make a case that GS knows how to pass, move without the ball, and, despite the dominance of Curry, they do show the teamwork and selflessness you want to see from a team.

Also remember that Jackson was the one who pointed out that penetration is one of the keys to getting open 3 pt shots and not just chucking them up.

At a period of the game when we needed some 3 pt shots to go in, we missed a number of opportunities where the hottest shooter on our team at that moment was not being recognized when he was open behind the line waving his 7'6" wingspan arms.

Anthony, Calderon, and others missed KP on multiple occasions when he was standing behind the line with nobody withing 10 ft of him, and he was there because one of the Knicks had penetrated.

The score, opposition D, and recognizing who has the open shot (especially the guy with the hot hand at the moment) have to factor into your decision making at the end of the game, and we F'd it up last night.

Has nothing to do with small ball...everything to do with smart ball.

mreinman wrote:

fishmike wrote:

mreinman wrote:

fishmike wrote:

mreinman wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Nalod wrote:

mreinman wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Nalod wrote:

mreinman wrote:

Nalod wrote:

mreinman wrote:

Nalod wrote:

mreinman wrote:not sure you know what small ball is. Is cleveland playing small ball? Did we play small ball when we won 54 games? Was MDA a small ball coach?

All four teams in the conf finals last year played small ball.

KP being 7 foot 3 does not mean that since he is big that he can't play small ball.

Did having Mozgov and Thompson as rim protectors be small ball? DId feeding Mozgov with Delledovavnovallavova penetrating be small ball?

I thought small ball is when you have killer snipers shooting at a high volume. At the same time running uptempo ball down the court. Providing your getting rebounds!!!!

Does having Bogut and Ezili as rim protectors stop small ball? You can have bigs on the court and play small ball. You just don't really post them up much or slow down the game.

All I know is if you got Klay and Steph you can go small and if you can shoot, you can run and open it up. One can say SAS went smallish and won two years ago. They basically had a eurostyle game for some time anyway. Im not saying go blotzing big exclusively.

small ball is not necessarily going small. Houston plays super super small ball and they have big dummy back there.

Lots of threes, pnr's, shots at the rim. Not much posting and slowing the game down or too many mid range sh1t shots.

Im not a fan of Small ball I guess unless you got the players to execute. Harden is a good one to have run it. After reading Phils books its apparent not all personel gets the triangle and/or it takes time.
The fact we are flirting with .500 this early is encouraging to me. To others, they seem frustrated with the knicks. After reading Phils last book of all his championships and teams that missed I just have a macro perspective at the moment and not into changing coaches every 30 games when shyt don't go right. Last year was an abortion. This year as sir Charles says we actually have an NBA roster and .500 would be great. Two games below, im not freaking out.

That, and we have a franchise 20 year old incubating right before our eyes. yeah, Melo needs to move the ball faster and "Hose-A" needs to shake more rust off. Melo is playing better and Jose has gotten better the last 10-12 games from the first 10 he played.

If Im rebuilding IM start big. If IM patient I keep playing Dwilliams and hope he gets the Zen of playing inside the structure. Gallo and Grant might be going thru the toughest part of "Master class" and asked to do more which might be why they are uneven.

I am in faith that this team can improve. If we are preaching a culture and building I doubt taking flyers on players cuz "what the hell" is a proper course.

Growth is not without pain.

I really agree with this. 20ish games in and Lopez is struggling with the triangle so folks want to scrap it for the PnR. Growing pains are ok. There is a great room for improvement from within and that needs to happen first. Some guys are doing well, other guys are struggling. KP, Lance and Jose have looked great of late. KOQ, Galloway and DWill look lost or out of the rotation. Lot of new guys. Im pretty enthused with the over all picture.

I'm all for experiment. When do we scratch it? Does Fisher have to get canned first? Do we have to bring in 4-5 more/diff bigs to see if they get it? Do we need to give up the house for a gasol who def look like triangle bigs? Noah?

Rolo and Seraphin (and sammy) all look like very questionable fits (seraphin perhaps has a shot if he can have a brain makeover).

Triangle is no experiment.

yea this.. if guys dont fit than yea, FO will have to find new ones. We should scrap the triangle because Lopez's career #s are down? Yea... no. He can figure it out. Not everyone is playing poorly, some are doing quite well. 20ish games we have seen some good and some not so good.

we are already scrapping the triangle much of time. So yes. Scrap the triangle because it ain't working that well and there are better options as we see when we scrap the triangle.

Get me a gasol and I will be all for triangle (sometimes)

We have a Gasol. Should we trade KP for a more seasoned guy or let the team grow and figure this out? Shooting 30 3s a game isnt fixing this.

who want 30 3's a game? It snot about how many threes you take its about which offensive initiation gets you the most efficient looks.

This year we are much much less triangle than last year. I hope that next year that it can be even further reduced.

Rockets and Phili... but your words after the bold are exactly what the triangle is there for. I mean did the guy win 11 titles running a system that doesnt get good shots?

We just arent consistent at all. Galloway as lights out to start and goes 2 weeks without hitting a shot. Melo has rarely shot 40% game in and game out. KP has been feash or famine. Same with AA and Lance who have big games followed by very quiet ones. Seraphin is looking better and better but was god awful to start the year. KOQ is out of the rotation because he cant hang with smalls. Jose is playing very well after a dismal start. This is not triangle problem.

with rolo, its a triangle problem. Phil is really smart and smart enough to continue to go away from it. I hope that he continues to ditch for smarter play and better shot selection.

Phil thought that he could turn Rolo into something that he can't. So for now, instead of rolo playing much more PnR, he is forcing some triangle and sitting him a lot.

Curious to see how this turns out and how Phil adjusts.

Lets remember that its not just Rolo but pretty much the whole front line that has been tanking in efficiency vs. previous years or career numbers.

fishmike wrote:

mreinman wrote:

fishmike wrote:

mreinman wrote:

fishmike wrote:

mreinman wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Nalod wrote:

mreinman wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Nalod wrote:

mreinman wrote:

Nalod wrote:

mreinman wrote:

Nalod wrote:

mreinman wrote:not sure you know what small ball is. Is cleveland playing small ball? Did we play small ball when we won 54 games? Was MDA a small ball coach?

All four teams in the conf finals last year played small ball.

KP being 7 foot 3 does not mean that since he is big that he can't play small ball.

Did having Mozgov and Thompson as rim protectors be small ball? DId feeding Mozgov with Delledovavnovallavova penetrating be small ball?

I thought small ball is when you have killer snipers shooting at a high volume. At the same time running uptempo ball down the court. Providing your getting rebounds!!!!

Does having Bogut and Ezili as rim protectors stop small ball? You can have bigs on the court and play small ball. You just don't really post them up much or slow down the game.

All I know is if you got Klay and Steph you can go small and if you can shoot, you can run and open it up. One can say SAS went smallish and won two years ago. They basically had a eurostyle game for some time anyway. Im not saying go blotzing big exclusively.

small ball is not necessarily going small. Houston plays super super small ball and they have big dummy back there.

Lots of threes, pnr's, shots at the rim. Not much posting and slowing the game down or too many mid range sh1t shots.

Im not a fan of Small ball I guess unless you got the players to execute. Harden is a good one to have run it. After reading Phils books its apparent not all personel gets the triangle and/or it takes time.
The fact we are flirting with .500 this early is encouraging to me. To others, they seem frustrated with the knicks. After reading Phils last book of all his championships and teams that missed I just have a macro perspective at the moment and not into changing coaches every 30 games when shyt don't go right. Last year was an abortion. This year as sir Charles says we actually have an NBA roster and .500 would be great. Two games below, im not freaking out.

That, and we have a franchise 20 year old incubating right before our eyes. yeah, Melo needs to move the ball faster and "Hose-A" needs to shake more rust off. Melo is playing better and Jose has gotten better the last 10-12 games from the first 10 he played.

If Im rebuilding IM start big. If IM patient I keep playing Dwilliams and hope he gets the Zen of playing inside the structure. Gallo and Grant might be going thru the toughest part of "Master class" and asked to do more which might be why they are uneven.

I am in faith that this team can improve. If we are preaching a culture and building I doubt taking flyers on players cuz "what the hell" is a proper course.

Growth is not without pain.

I really agree with this. 20ish games in and Lopez is struggling with the triangle so folks want to scrap it for the PnR. Growing pains are ok. There is a great room for improvement from within and that needs to happen first. Some guys are doing well, other guys are struggling. KP, Lance and Jose have looked great of late. KOQ, Galloway and DWill look lost or out of the rotation. Lot of new guys. Im pretty enthused with the over all picture.

I'm all for experiment. When do we scratch it? Does Fisher have to get canned first? Do we have to bring in 4-5 more/diff bigs to see if they get it? Do we need to give up the house for a gasol who def look like triangle bigs? Noah?

Rolo and Seraphin (and sammy) all look like very questionable fits (seraphin perhaps has a shot if he can have a brain makeover).

Triangle is no experiment.

yea this.. if guys dont fit than yea, FO will have to find new ones. We should scrap the triangle because Lopez's career #s are down? Yea... no. He can figure it out. Not everyone is playing poorly, some are doing quite well. 20ish games we have seen some good and some not so good.

we are already scrapping the triangle much of time. So yes. Scrap the triangle because it ain't working that well and there are better options as we see when we scrap the triangle.

Get me a gasol and I will be all for triangle (sometimes)

We have a Gasol. Should we trade KP for a more seasoned guy or let the team grow and figure this out? Shooting 30 3s a game isnt fixing this.

who want 30 3's a game? It snot about how many threes you take its about which offensive initiation gets you the most efficient looks.

This year we are much much less triangle than last year. I hope that next year that it can be even further reduced.

Rockets and Phili... but your words after the bold are exactly what the triangle is there for. I mean did the guy win 11 titles running a system that doesnt get good shots?

We just arent consistent at all. Galloway as lights out to start and goes 2 weeks without hitting a shot. Melo has rarely shot 40% game in and game out. KP has been feash or famine. Same with AA and Lance who have big games followed by very quiet ones. Seraphin is looking better and better but was god awful to start the year. KOQ is out of the rotation because he cant hang with smalls. Jose is playing very well after a dismal start. This is not triangle problem.

with rolo, its a triangle problem. Phil is really smart and smart enough to continue to go away from it. I hope that he continues to ditch for smarter play and better shot selection.

Phil thought that he could turn Rolo into something that he can't. So for now, instead of rolo playing much more PnR, he is forcing some triangle and sitting him a lot.

Curious to see how this turns out and how Phil adjusts.

Lets remember that its not just Rolo but pretty much the whole front line that has been tanking in efficiency vs. previous years or career numbers.

This is not reality. This is mreinman hates the triangle so if he sees it less it must be because Phil is smart and sees things like him. Cute try, but no.

lol ... I don't hate the triangle, I don't really know what the triangle is. I hate stupid shots thought and putting players in situations that don't seem to compliment their skill set.

mreinman is mostly right so look for us to toss/continue to toss a lot of this stupid sh1t.

mreinman wrote:

Nalod wrote:

mreinman wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Nalod wrote:

mreinman wrote:

Nalod wrote:

mreinman wrote:

Nalod wrote:

mreinman wrote:not sure you know what small ball is. Is cleveland playing small ball? Did we play small ball when we won 54 games? Was MDA a small ball coach?

All four teams in the conf finals last year played small ball.

KP being 7 foot 3 does not mean that since he is big that he can't play small ball.

Did having Mozgov and Thompson as rim protectors be small ball? DId feeding Mozgov with Delledovavnovallavova penetrating be small ball?

I thought small ball is when you have killer snipers shooting at a high volume. At the same time running uptempo ball down the court. Providing your getting rebounds!!!!

Does having Bogut and Ezili as rim protectors stop small ball? You can have bigs on the court and play small ball. You just don't really post them up much or slow down the game.

All I know is if you got Klay and Steph you can go small and if you can shoot, you can run and open it up. One can say SAS went smallish and won two years ago. They basically had a eurostyle game for some time anyway. Im not saying go blotzing big exclusively.

small ball is not necessarily going small. Houston plays super super small ball and they have big dummy back there.

Lots of threes, pnr's, shots at the rim. Not much posting and slowing the game down or too many mid range sh1t shots.

Im not a fan of Small ball I guess unless you got the players to execute. Harden is a good one to have run it. After reading Phils books its apparent not all personel gets the triangle and/or it takes time.
The fact we are flirting with .500 this early is encouraging to me. To others, they seem frustrated with the knicks. After reading Phils last book of all his championships and teams that missed I just have a macro perspective at the moment and not into changing coaches every 30 games when shyt don't go right. Last year was an abortion. This year as sir Charles says we actually have an NBA roster and .500 would be great. Two games below, im not freaking out.

That, and we have a franchise 20 year old incubating right before our eyes. yeah, Melo needs to move the ball faster and "Hose-A" needs to shake more rust off. Melo is playing better and Jose has gotten better the last 10-12 games from the first 10 he played.

If Im rebuilding IM start big. If IM patient I keep playing Dwilliams and hope he gets the Zen of playing inside the structure. Gallo and Grant might be going thru the toughest part of "Master class" and asked to do more which might be why they are uneven.

I am in faith that this team can improve. If we are preaching a culture and building I doubt taking flyers on players cuz "what the hell" is a proper course.

Growth is not without pain.

I really agree with this. 20ish games in and Lopez is struggling with the triangle so folks want to scrap it for the PnR. Growing pains are ok. There is a great room for improvement from within and that needs to happen first. Some guys are doing well, other guys are struggling. KP, Lance and Jose have looked great of late. KOQ, Galloway and DWill look lost or out of the rotation. Lot of new guys. Im pretty enthused with the over all picture.

I'm all for experiment. When do we scratch it? Does Fisher have to get canned first? Do we have to bring in 4-5 more/diff bigs to see if they get it? Do we need to give up the house for a gasol who def look like triangle bigs? Noah?

Rolo and Seraphin (and sammy) all look like very questionable fits (seraphin perhaps has a shot if he can have a brain makeover).

Triangle is no experiment.

tell that to samuel dalembert ;-)

And Where is Sam?

Sam I am?

I will not wear my hair in Bangle, I will not play with Triangle?
I will not get in shape, I will not drink watch tape...
Sam I am!

I will not even care, I am Sam Dalembart..>>>

ChuckBuck wrote:Why do we say "Phuch Small Ball"? Why can't we have both a structured and open spread system as well?

I think what was working in the beginning of the season, is the triangle at it's best. Not all of Jordan's or Kobe's played walk it up get into spot systems, they ran the fast breaks and even kicked to the open man like BJ, Kerr, or Fisher in transition.

Doesn't have to be all or none, as long as the personnel can execute the game plan. Hose-A is not a run it up and down guy, he's 80 years old, so there lies a personnel problem. RoLo isn't a true post threat and is a questionable passing big, so there's lies another one. KP at the 5 spreads the floor, but then you got Melo getting out quicked, out sized, and outplayed by true stretch 4s.

Let the process play out, we can play big and play small, it's just a matter of adding the right players that fit into this system. It's only year 1 of the renovation, gots to give it time.

nalod does not know what it means. His a traffic cop who is hear to stop the mutiny that he feels is coming for some reason.

The knicks are saying no to "phuck small ball" dumb ideas. Why do you think they sit Lopez for LT and park him in MDA's corner?

newyorknewyork wrote:I like the Tri as I like seeing players move without the ball. What ever we run though should be based off of matchup and personel. We should be able to do both effectively by switching up personel. And going with what's working vs our opponent.

agreed and that is certainly not posting Rolo up in the high post and having him initiate his fugly offense.

ChuckBuck wrote:Why do we say "Phuch Small Ball"? Why can't we have both a structured and open spread system as well?

I think what was working in the beginning of the season, is the triangle at it's best. Not all of Jordan's or Kobe's played walk it up get into spot systems, they ran the fast breaks and even kicked to the open man like BJ, Kerr, or Fisher in transition.

Doesn't have to be all or none, as long as the personnel can execute the game plan. Hose-A is not a run it up and down guy, he's 80 years old, so there lies a personnel problem. RoLo isn't a true post threat and is a questionable passing big, so there's lies another one. KP at the 5 spreads the floor, but then you got Melo getting out quicked, out sized, and outplayed by true stretch 4s.

Let the process play out, we can play big and play small, it's just a matter of adding the right players that fit into this system. It's only year 1 of the renovation, gots to give it time.

Its just me. Don't worry, I don't speak for the knicks like some around here do.
The jest of my post is we don't have the personal so we go with what we got, but the ideal is this roster is being constructed with a long term purpose. Nobody is ditching it after 6 weeks.

Knicks1969 wrote:

mreinman wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:I like the Tri as I like seeing players move without the ball. What ever we run though should be based off of matchup and personel. We should be able to do both effectively by switching up personel. And going with what's working vs our opponent.

agreed and that is certainly not posting Rolo up in the high post and having him initiate his fugly offense.

That statement should also include Seraphin. This is why I don't want to blame Phil. When RoLo is not on the floor, he is replaced by another dark hole. A tactic that was more then alive last season with Amare

Last year both Phil and Fisher both talked about guys moving without the ball with a purpose, and not just moving for the sake of moving.

I've seen Aflalo and KP doing the most off-ball movement with a purpose, and Williams and Grant have done the same thing at times. Seraphin will pass to an open cutter when he has the ball in the post, but guys have to cut to the basket, first.

cleveland almost beat that group of smalls from golden state. mozgov could not be stopped, but then blatt sat him on the bench for some reason.