mreinman wrote:

nixluva wrote:

mreinman wrote:

nixluva wrote:

mreinman wrote:

nixluva wrote:

mreinman wrote:Lets see how this trends. Seems like the triangle creates a lot mid range shots and Afflalo stated this pretty clearly as well. 27 shots from 3 is good.

You keep saying this and others keep parroting this idea, but in reality it's the players that decide what shots they get. There is no reason they can't get a decent amount of 3pt shots up every game. There are no rules against taking 3's and the general spacing actually puts guys in position for taking 3's if they move and move the ball.

The biggest issue is for this team to push and look for early offense before the defense gets set. Then only slowing down into the Triangle actions after they've probed the defense looking for early offense. The normal Triangle spacing has 3 players outside the 3pt line and that 4th player normally a Forward who is on the weak side and will be there for the 2 man game, but he has the option of stepping back behind the line as well. That is usually a forward like KP or DWill. That is how you can quickly end up with a 4 out 1 in alignment with no significant changes to the offense. They don't have to do it every single time down for it to be an effective option, which is what we've seen.

Afflalo said this. I have no idea, I just listen to what many smart guys have to say.

Look the offense is called the Triple Post Offense and was created decades before there was a 3pt line. Posting up is a huge part of the offense and those kinds of plays in the mid range areas of the floor are builtin into the offense but they are simply guidelines and not hard and fast rules about which shots the players can take. Stop overemphasizing comments and use your eyes. There are ample opportunities to take 3pt shots in this offense, but the PLAYERS have to want to take those shots.

I've said this over and over that if you want to take a mid range shot in this offense it will give you a great look so a lot of times our players have taken those looks, but they also have 3pt opportunities in this offense as well. As I said every single time down the spacing starts with players behind the 3pt line. The normal motion in the offense creates cuts to the basket or for players to flash or curl into the mid range for shots, but ALSO to cut to the corners for 3 or reverse the ball back up top for a 3.

the charts are cool and all but again, we need to see where this trends. I predict that we will continue to lead the league in the mid range shot attempts at an inefficient rate.

This isn't a team that is gonna lead the league in 3 pt attempts but they should increase the number of 3's they take. They took 27 last night and 25 tonight. They just didn't make many tonight.

the triangle seems to create fewer open 3's then the pnr / drive and kick game. It also seems to create fewer shots at the rim. Of course personnel makes a difference but still really don't like what we are getting. Again, I am no guru but the numbers need to trend differently then what it is now.

You seem to have a hard time accepting that the system isn't the reason we aren't attacking the basket enough or taking enough 3's!!! It's not the system. It's the tendencies of the players and their limitations as well.

We've got one guard who can effectively drive and score at the hoop and we don't really have any great 3 pt shooters. So taking those things into consideration it's the real source of the problem. No different from last year.

nixluva wrote:

mreinman wrote:

nixluva wrote:

mreinman wrote:

nixluva wrote:

mreinman wrote:

nixluva wrote:

mreinman wrote:Lets see how this trends. Seems like the triangle creates a lot mid range shots and Afflalo stated this pretty clearly as well. 27 shots from 3 is good.

You keep saying this and others keep parroting this idea, but in reality it's the players that decide what shots they get. There is no reason they can't get a decent amount of 3pt shots up every game. There are no rules against taking 3's and the general spacing actually puts guys in position for taking 3's if they move and move the ball.

The biggest issue is for this team to push and look for early offense before the defense gets set. Then only slowing down into the Triangle actions after they've probed the defense looking for early offense. The normal Triangle spacing has 3 players outside the 3pt line and that 4th player normally a Forward who is on the weak side and will be there for the 2 man game, but he has the option of stepping back behind the line as well. That is usually a forward like KP or DWill. That is how you can quickly end up with a 4 out 1 in alignment with no significant changes to the offense. They don't have to do it every single time down for it to be an effective option, which is what we've seen.

Afflalo said this. I have no idea, I just listen to what many smart guys have to say.

Look the offense is called the Triple Post Offense and was created decades before there was a 3pt line. Posting up is a huge part of the offense and those kinds of plays in the mid range areas of the floor are builtin into the offense but they are simply guidelines and not hard and fast rules about which shots the players can take. Stop overemphasizing comments and use your eyes. There are ample opportunities to take 3pt shots in this offense, but the PLAYERS have to want to take those shots.

I've said this over and over that if you want to take a mid range shot in this offense it will give you a great look so a lot of times our players have taken those looks, but they also have 3pt opportunities in this offense as well. As I said every single time down the spacing starts with players behind the 3pt line. The normal motion in the offense creates cuts to the basket or for players to flash or curl into the mid range for shots, but ALSO to cut to the corners for 3 or reverse the ball back up top for a 3.

the charts are cool and all but again, we need to see where this trends. I predict that we will continue to lead the league in the mid range shot attempts at an inefficient rate.

This isn't a team that is gonna lead the league in 3 pt attempts but they should increase the number of 3's they take. They took 27 last night and 25 tonight. They just didn't make many tonight.

the triangle seems to create fewer open 3's then the pnr / drive and kick game. It also seems to create fewer shots at the rim. Of course personnel makes a difference but still really don't like what we are getting. Again, I am no guru but the numbers need to trend differently then what it is now.

You seem to have a hard time accepting that the system isn't the reason we aren't attacking the basket enough or taking enough 3's!!! It's not the system. It's the tendencies of the players and their limitations as well.

We've got one guard who can effectively drive and score at the hoop and we don't really have any great 3 pt shooters. So taking those things into consideration it's the real source of the problem. No different from last year.

I accept that the guards are part of the problem but not the whole problem. You are not even considering that perhaps the triangle is creating less efficient shots. Many people believe this, I did not make it up. You are all in in your belief.

Why are our bigs efficiency in the complete tank?

Many offenses just don't allow some of the shots that we take.

nixluva wrote:Despite your beliefs it's simply a matter of intent and ability. It's not the system. You're looking at results without a clear understanding of the offense. Knicks knocked down open 3's last night and took nearly the same amount tonight but didn't hit.

In terms of offense the Triangle is supposed to start by pushing the ball and looking for early offense but we only have ONE GUARD who can routinely get to the rim and be somewhat effective scoring. Our starting PG won't drive and barely shoots. Gallo was hot but now he isn't and he's hesitant now. Afflalo likes mid range jumpers off post ups. At least he will take an open 3! It's mostly about the talent we have. It's really pretty simple.

In time I suspect Phil will address these roster weaknesses but only so much he could do in one summer.

Ok nix :-) you will never question phil even if a guy like afflalo says that the triangle creates alot of mid range shots.

I watch every game and its not all about the guards. We take the 10-16 footers like its part of the initial offense. Those are bad shots in any system. If we stretched the floor more that are threes and rim shots would be much more open.

Also, only 45% of our 2's are assisted. That is awful.

Phil is clearly modifying the offense with more threes but I think that he needs to modify it much more. Perhaps he will, he is not stupid.

mreinman wrote:http://knickerblogger.net/knicks-offensive-woes-the-triangle-or-the-underachievers/

Once again this has nothing to do with whether or not the system can be effective or not. Like most teams your offensive efficiency has a lot to do with the talent on your team. It's mostly about the actual talent that you have and how well they execute the offense as a group and individually. This idea that the offense is archaic is stupid. If you have more gifted Penetrators and 3pt shooters then you'll be able to score more efficiently from 3 and at the rim, even in the Triangle.

We start Jose and Afflalo, neither of which are really great penetrators. That is going to have a huge impact on the team's overall numbers when it comes to driving to the hoop.

The one big impact of the Triangle is that it's not a PnR heavy offense and so our bigs won't get a ton of rolls to the basket in the typical way that you do in a PnR heavy offense. We still runs some PnR but just not at the frequency of other offenses. Still much of that has to do with starting Jose and Afflalo. Gallo isn't a PnR guard so all that leaves is Jerian.

RoLo gets great position and looks inside and has been missing a lot of those great looks. The same can be said at times for KOQ and Seraphin. We started the year with horrid shooting and it had nothing to do with running the Triangle versus a Pace and Space system. Guys were missing wide open shots. When Melo, Jose and Afflalo started hitting shots it wasn't due to any change in the offense. THEY JUST HIT THEIR SHOTS.