mreinman wrote:

nixluva wrote:

mreinman wrote:

bigbasketballs wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:Better to win ugly, then not at all, right? I whole-heartedly agree with that. At the end of the day it's about W's and L's.

There are no ugly wins for a team that won 17 games last year, on the road, against the division leader.

It's an oxymoron.

That said, are we not allowed to pick apart and analyze what happened during that 48 minutes?

You're allowed to do whatever you like. The problem is the premise is false. The premise is the head coach had NOTHING to do with all the things that kept the Knicks in the game and got them leads, and only had influence on the things that prevented them from having a bigger lead.

The premise is, Fisher can ONLY have negative influence. The positives are solely the work of the players.

Knicks are .500, exactly where most everyone would have wanted the Knicks to be before the season started.

And in the NBA you don't win and lose clean games. This is what we all wanted and what we all wanted looks like.

we would like to win but also, we would like to play fundamentally sound basketball and build the correct culture.

One can be tickled pink at the win and at the same time point out the great, the good, the bad, the ugly. There was plenty of ugly to discuss.

How many times do we have to say this is a process? We know that these guys are being taught how to play TEAM BALL. The problem is that this isn't an easy process. Especially against good teams and while some of our players are trying to develop and adjust to the NBA level. Then you add in struggling vets and the absence of Afflalo and you can somewhat understand the Knicks not always looking great. Still they play hard every night and have been in every game.

you don't have to keep saying it, were not stupid

Apparently I do, cuz people keep forgetting. Still inside of the 10 game mark and this team is getting better in fits and starts. They have a long way to go but it's encouraging how they've handled things so far. They're fighting thru early struggles.

nixluva wrote:

mreinman wrote:

nixluva wrote:

mreinman wrote:

bigbasketballs wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:Better to win ugly, then not at all, right? I whole-heartedly agree with that. At the end of the day it's about W's and L's.

There are no ugly wins for a team that won 17 games last year, on the road, against the division leader.

It's an oxymoron.

That said, are we not allowed to pick apart and analyze what happened during that 48 minutes?

You're allowed to do whatever you like. The problem is the premise is false. The premise is the head coach had NOTHING to do with all the things that kept the Knicks in the game and got them leads, and only had influence on the things that prevented them from having a bigger lead.

The premise is, Fisher can ONLY have negative influence. The positives are solely the work of the players.

Knicks are .500, exactly where most everyone would have wanted the Knicks to be before the season started.

And in the NBA you don't win and lose clean games. This is what we all wanted and what we all wanted looks like.

we would like to win but also, we would like to play fundamentally sound basketball and build the correct culture.

One can be tickled pink at the win and at the same time point out the great, the good, the bad, the ugly. There was plenty of ugly to discuss.

How many times do we have to say this is a process? We know that these guys are being taught how to play TEAM BALL. The problem is that this isn't an easy process. Especially against good teams and while some of our players are trying to develop and adjust to the NBA level. Then you add in struggling vets and the absence of Afflalo and you can somewhat understand the Knicks not always looking great. Still they play hard every night and have been in every game.

you don't have to keep saying it, were not stupid

Apparently I do, cuz people keep forgetting. Still inside of the 10 game mark and this team is getting better in fits and starts. They have a long way to go but it's encouraging how they've handled things so far. They're fighting thru early struggles.

huh? we don't understand that its a process?

we are discussing things within the process, no?

yellowboy90 wrote:Who cares what his ast totals are when people don't care about his total when it doesn't fit there agenda. It's about ast attempts how he moves the ball. To me Melo didn't pass as much in the 4th as he did through the 1st 3 qtrs. Despite that I seem to remember a pass to Calderon who took his time on a corner 3 that was blk by Johnson, a cross court pass to Gallo for a 3pta, and a pocket pass to Lopez who missed. I also remember a pass to Lopez on the one that was a to when he thought Lopez was rolling but instead he popped.

I would Give Melo a C+ to B-. He made some big steals after his mistakes that helped mitigate some of his bed offensive blunders.

Very nice. People just look past the fact that Melo could have had another 4/5 assists if the players he made good passes to just made their shots. You can't get a assist if the guy you pass to doesn't make the shot.

Knixkik wrote:My observation is Fisher needs to stop treating this team like a grade-school team, where he let's everyone play. Not everyone deserves to play. He needs to cut this down significantly. Amundson did not need to play, neither did Seraphin at this point. Early brought some nice energy for a few mins, but otherwise he's not a rotation player. When Afflalo comes back tonight, Sasha needs to be shut down. Calderon needs to be reduced. Galloway and Afflalo need to play 30 mpg minimum. Time to tighten things up and establish a rotation to get some chemistry and rhythm. Other than that, a 4-4 start against all playoff teams except for LA is a start we can be very satisfied with.

newyorker4ever wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:Who cares what his ast totals are when people don't care about his total when it doesn't fit there agenda. It's about ast attempts how he moves the ball. To me Melo didn't pass as much in the 4th as he did through the 1st 3 qtrs. Despite that I seem to remember a pass to Calderon who took his time on a corner 3 that was blk by Johnson, a cross court pass to Gallo for a 3pta, and a pocket pass to Lopez who missed. I also remember a pass to Lopez on the one that was a to when he thought Lopez was rolling but instead he popped.

I would Give Melo a C+ to B-. He made some big steals after his mistakes that helped mitigate some of his bed offensive blunders.

Very nice. People just look past the fact that Melo could have had another 4/5 assists if the players he made good passes to just made their shots. You can't get a assist if the guy you pass to doesn't make the shot.

Its really incredible we are 4-4 against good teams shooting as poorly as we are from the outside. The only guys who are shooting the ball from the 3 consistently are Galloway and surprisingly Lance Thomas. These guys aren't playing a ton with Melo. Calderon and Sasha are here to make threes and they aren't doing it. Porzingis has hit some shots off Melo passes, but is not shooting the ball well yet. So in all, the starting lineup is shooting the ball horribly, yet Melo is expected to get his 5 assists. Maybe he would if guys were making shots. Hopefully Afflalo can bring that consistent outside threat that no one in our lineup has been able to.

mreinman wrote:

nixluva wrote:

mreinman wrote:

bigbasketballs wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:Better to win ugly, then not at all, right? I whole-heartedly agree with that. At the end of the day it's about W's and L's.

There are no ugly wins for a team that won 17 games last year, on the road, against the division leader.

It's an oxymoron.

That said, are we not allowed to pick apart and analyze what happened during that 48 minutes?

You're allowed to do whatever you like. The problem is the premise is false. The premise is the head coach had NOTHING to do with all the things that kept the Knicks in the game and got them leads, and only had influence on the things that prevented them from having a bigger lead.

The premise is, Fisher can ONLY have negative influence. The positives are solely the work of the players.

Knicks are .500, exactly where most everyone would have wanted the Knicks to be before the season started.

And in the NBA you don't win and lose clean games. This is what we all wanted and what we all wanted looks like.

we would like to win but also, we would like to play fundamentally sound basketball and build the correct culture.

One can be tickled pink at the win and at the same time point out the great, the good, the bad, the ugly. There was plenty of ugly to discuss.

How many times do we have to say this is a process? We know that these guys are being taught how to play TEAM BALL. The problem is that this isn't an easy process. Especially against good teams and while some of our players are trying to develop and adjust to the NBA level. Then you add in struggling vets and the absence of Afflalo and you can somewhat understand the Knicks not always looking great. Still they play hard every night and have been in every game.

you don't have to keep saying it, were not stupid

mreinman wrote:

newyorker4ever wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:Who cares what his ast totals are when people don't care about his total when it doesn't fit there agenda. It's about ast attempts how he moves the ball. To me Melo didn't pass as much in the 4th as he did through the 1st 3 qtrs. Despite that I seem to remember a pass to Calderon who took his time on a corner 3 that was blk by Johnson, a cross court pass to Gallo for a 3pta, and a pocket pass to Lopez who missed. I also remember a pass to Lopez on the one that was a to when he thought Lopez was rolling but instead he popped.

I would Give Melo a C+ to B-. He made some big steals after his mistakes that helped mitigate some of his bed offensive blunders.

Very nice. People just look past the fact that Melo could have had another 4/5 assists if the players he made good passes to just made their shots. You can't get a assist if the guy you pass to doesn't make the shot.

excuse is beyond old.

Somehow good players/passers rack up assists on bad teams.

You can say for a specific game that players are not hitting shots off passes but over the long run, the stats don't lie.

Why is it that Melo can always rack up first half assists with his crappy teammates?

It was only a few years ago Lebron James had a rep for passing big moments up and/or coming up small in the 4th quarter.

There is instinct involved. Melo has been asked to carry teams on his shoulders probably since he was in high school. That continued into the pros. Arguably over the last few years he's been surrounded by less talent and not more.

That is not a defense of hero ball and NOT advocating Melo not trying to improve and evolve.

It's just advocating understanding it for what it is, having an open mind 8 games in, and leaving the fixated, hyperbolic hate where it belongs.

mreinman wrote:

bigbasketballs wrote:

mreinman wrote:

bigbasketballs wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:Better to win ugly, then not at all, right? I whole-heartedly agree with that. At the end of the day it's about W's and L's.

There are no ugly wins for a team that won 17 games last year, on the road, against the division leader.

It's an oxymoron.

That said, are we not allowed to pick apart and analyze what happened during that 48 minutes?

You're allowed to do whatever you like. The problem is the premise is false. The premise is the head coach had NOTHING to do with all the things that kept the Knicks in the game and got them leads, and only had influence on the things that prevented them from having a bigger lead.

The premise is, Fisher can ONLY have negative influence. The positives are solely the work of the players.

Knicks are .500, exactly where most everyone would have wanted the Knicks to be before the season started.

And in the NBA you don't win and lose clean games. This is what we all wanted and what we all wanted looks like.

we would like to win but also, we would like to play fundamentally sound basketball and build the correct culture.

One can be tickled pink at the win and at the same time point out the great, the good, the bad, the ugly. There was plenty of ugly to discuss.

1.) I'm more referring to Fisher's rotations, second-guessing of which is speculative at best. His rotations resulted in the Knicks scoring 2 more points than the Raptors after 48 mins. Mission accomplished.

There is NO constant that you can say 'well, if he changed this, they would have won by 10'.

2.) I'm advocating a macro view. If Fisher has executed pretty much what we asked for in the best case scenario (.500 with one of the NBA's toughest schedule), that needs to be incorporated into the macro view.

Sure, in a vacuum you can argue how the 17-win Knicks could/might've had 6 or 7 wins by now, far exceeding reasonable expectations. The point is there are NO clean loses and few cleans wins.

If Fisher is accomplishing what we wanted and exceeding most other expectations, how bad of a job can h b doing?

agree. I think it would be stupid to ding fisher for last night. He did a great job.

bad from last night:

1) Seraphin is a terrible basketball player and dumb as a door knob
2) Dwil is lost in the half court and has a really low bball IQ too (all world athleticism may not be enough)
3) Melo really regressed in the second half. Zero assists. A few REALLY stupid and alarming shots from long 2 range against tough D and early in the shot clock.
Needs to pump fake but just does not. Still relies too much on being hot. Not smart long term winning playoff bball. GREAT FIRST HALF THOUGH

4)Calderon in at the end of the game situation. Guy immediately hits 3 in his eyeball. Fish should've done a defense-offense sub.
5)Waiting until 11 seconds to sub KP back in for defense at least. Guy is 7'3 but mobile and all he has to stick his paws in the air to distract guys. I'm not a super-analytical guy, but I'm pretty sure he's the Knicks leading rebounder this season.

Other than that Fish coached like this was his last game as a head coach, playing 13 guys. Can't knock that hustle.

ChuckBuck wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:Who cares what his ast totals are when people don't care about his total when it doesn't fit there agenda. It's about ast attempts how he moves the ball. To me Melo didn't pass as much in the 4th as he did through the 1st 3 qtrs. Despite that I seem to remember a pass to Calderon who took his time on a corner 3 that was blk by Johnson, a cross court pass to Gallo for a 3pta, and a pocket pass to Lopez who missed. I also remember a pass to Lopez on the one that was a to when he thought Lopez was rolling but instead he popped.

I would Give Melo a C+ to B-. He made some big steals after his mistakes that helped mitigate some of his bed offensive blunders.

C- is more accurate, I think he was 0-7 in the quarter.

RoLo and LT bailed him and the Knicks out, big time.

Dang, your C- = to an unbias B+ maybe I have to watch the game again. Also, he was 1-6

mreinman wrote:

newyorker4ever wrote:

mreinman wrote:

newyorker4ever wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:Who cares what his ast totals are when people don't care about his total when it doesn't fit there agenda. It's about ast attempts how he moves the ball. To me Melo didn't pass as much in the 4th as he did through the 1st 3 qtrs. Despite that I seem to remember a pass to Calderon who took his time on a corner 3 that was blk by Johnson, a cross court pass to Gallo for a 3pta, and a pocket pass to Lopez who missed. I also remember a pass to Lopez on the one that was a to when he thought Lopez was rolling but instead he popped.

I would Give Melo a C+ to B-. He made some big steals after his mistakes that helped mitigate some of his bed offensive blunders.

Very nice. People just look past the fact that Melo could have had another 4/5 assists if the players he made good passes to just made their shots. You can't get a assist if the guy you pass to doesn't make the shot.

excuse is beyond old.

Somehow good players/passers rack up assists on bad teams.

You can say for a specific game that players are not hitting shots off passes but over the long run, the stats don't lie.

Why is it that Melo can always rack up first half assists with his crappy teammates?

Wow you really don't get it?? Melo is not a assist guy but he should of had more last night cause he made some good passes but the shots were missed. The good players/passers that rack up assists are probably guards that you're talking about that aren't as good offensively as Melo is and i'm sure pass the ball a ton more than Melo does which results in more assists......get it now??

No. I don't get but thanks for trying.

Melo is not an assist guy? Amare has a low defensive IQ ... it is what it is?

Melo chucks much more in the second half of games. End of story. He needs to fix it and not have fans find silly excuses for it.

He could have had 10 assists in the first half. So what ... he needs to complete his game.