dk7th wrote:MVP!MVP!MVP!MVP! fukk these bryant/laker fans in msg. i mean wtf are you kidding me?!? god all-fukkin mighty

this game was exciting in spurts but overall i found it unwatchable because of the egos involved. "just two guys having fun". okay i guess this acceptable for most fans but still.... it was "entertaining" in the worst possible sense of the term. as trautwig said: "the game had no soul." this is not a "good win" because the team looked disjointed. but it WAS a "needed" win.

porzingis he alters shots of every assignment he has. he got jobbed on a couple of foul calls. fisher had a right to be upset. and the hustle? i have said this about porzingis: he has a chance to be a kevin garnett type of player, and with a three point shot. knicks are lucky and kudos to phil jackson. as it is i consider him the knicks most important player. i know this will drive the melo worshippers crazy. don't care

No need for this. There are some that have defended Melo, such as myself, but I by no means worship him. It is ignorant and foolish to think that anybody who has supported Melo in threads that went off the deep end here doesn't want talent on the roster. There may be 1 or 2 out there, but it's pretty safe to say that those people are in the minority. It's been a long time coming for this team to actually have another competent player on the roster. It's a shame that it got to that point but at least they are starting to right the ship. This is a Knicks forum and people on here are Knicks fans. All Knicks fans are pulling for KP. Just give it up man.

The Bryant MVP chants made me laugh. Even Kobe was laughing. For what they paid to buy those tickets on the secondary market, they can chant whatever they want I guess...

dk7th wrote:

dk7th wrote:MVP!MVP!MVP!MVP! fukk these bryant/laker fans in msg. i mean wtf are you kidding me?!? god all-fukkin mighty

this game was exciting in spurts but overall i found it unwatchable because of the egos involved. "just two guys having fun". okay i guess this acceptable for most fans but still.... it was "entertaining" in the worst possible sense of the term. as trautwig said: "the game had no soul." this is not a "good win" because the team looked disjointed. but it WAS a "needed" win.

galloway kid is cluuuuuutch. he has to get starters minutes even if he doesn't start... and i hope he does.
calderon maybe this gets him going... don't know, don't care. he isn't the future, galloway is. somebody mentioned he should just be a spot up shooter-- i agree, and that has been my position since the summer when other posters siad that he had to get minutes as the starter. i didn't even want to see him in the rotation.... but what are we doing having a starter who doesn't play any defense?!?
grant he is going to have to figure out how to adapt now that it is clear he is not a good shooter. just as troubling is his struggles finishing around the basket and two time he made terrible passes from the baseline off stifled drives, that happened to find their way to calderon one time and then melo another. but still... he picked up his dribble which is a big no-no. it's okay. he is going to need more time and frankly he looks like a 16 minute per game player as of right now. we shall see.
melo ego and inefficiency, pissing contest and playground ball... i lost track of poor shots today, and the negative effect it has on the offense is undeniable.
lopez he had floor impact again today doing the things he is being paid to do.
williams an okay game from him but he is showing his limitations as a player. does not have court vision or savvy but he is a terrific athlete and i love the way he can draw fouls and get to the line. that is a skill.
o'quinn & thomas serviceable bench players and these are the types of players who may be affected most by the disjointedness of the offense because of the egocentric sort of nonsense we saw today.
seraphin he does not deserve minutes. he has some attitude issues the way he plays and his lack of conditioning.
porzingis he alters shots of every assignment he has. he got jobbed on a couple of foul calls. fisher had a right to be upset. and the hustle? i have said this about porzingis: he has a chance to be a kevin garnett type of player, and with a three point shot. knicks are lucky and kudos to phil jackson. as it is i consider him the knicks most important player. i know this will drive the melo worshippers crazy. don't care

in spite of all this there is one overarching thing to this game, which is the coaching staff's being able to distribute minutes more concisely, especially if afflalo returns. remember afflalo?

so... monday morning and basketballreference.com http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201511080NYK.html?lid=yesterday_games_box comes out with it's box score-- the advanced box score says a lot about grant in terms of point guard skills, ie his usage to assist ratio is .28:1 which of course is off the charts terrific. obviously is shooting hurt(s) the knicks, as did his defense.

if you look at the usage to assist ratios for bryant and melo, it was clearly the bryant and melo show, with bryant clocking on at an unacceptable 1.83:1 and melo at his usual unacceptable 2.5:1. so lets not chime in with "melo passed the ball, melo shared the ball." he didn't. and combined with taking 5-6 bad shots, these two things hurt the team. on defense he sorta/kinda held his own, albeit in a shootout with his "big brother." lets hope he reverts to being a better team player, something he has already demonstrated he can do, happily.

as to lopez, i did give him short shrift when clearly this was one of his better games, if not his best game. it isn't the four "raw" assists, it is his usage/ast ratio, a fantastic .76:1 which is elite and defines a center as a playmaker. if he puts up this sort of ratio then that will be a huge factor in the knicks win total this season-- this is noah, gasol territory. and 5 offensive rebounds!

Stats don't always tell the whole story

knicks1248 wrote:

dk7th wrote:

dk7th wrote:MVP!MVP!MVP!MVP! fukk these bryant/laker fans in msg. i mean wtf are you kidding me?!? god all-fukkin mighty

this game was exciting in spurts but overall i found it unwatchable because of the egos involved. "just two guys having fun". okay i guess this acceptable for most fans but still.... it was "entertaining" in the worst possible sense of the term. as trautwig said: "the game had no soul." this is not a "good win" because the team looked disjointed. but it WAS a "needed" win.

galloway kid is cluuuuuutch. he has to get starters minutes even if he doesn't start... and i hope he does.
calderon maybe this gets him going... don't know, don't care. he isn't the future, galloway is. somebody mentioned he should just be a spot up shooter-- i agree, and that has been my position since the summer when other posters siad that he had to get minutes as the starter. i didn't even want to see him in the rotation.... but what are we doing having a starter who doesn't play any defense?!?
grant he is going to have to figure out how to adapt now that it is clear he is not a good shooter. just as troubling is his struggles finishing around the basket and two time he made terrible passes from the baseline off stifled drives, that happened to find their way to calderon one time and then melo another. but still... he picked up his dribble which is a big no-no. it's okay. he is going to need more time and frankly he looks like a 16 minute per game player as of right now. we shall see.
melo ego and inefficiency, pissing contest and playground ball... i lost track of poor shots today, and the negative effect it has on the offense is undeniable.
lopez he had floor impact again today doing the things he is being paid to do.
williams an okay game from him but he is showing his limitations as a player. does not have court vision or savvy but he is a terrific athlete and i love the way he can draw fouls and get to the line. that is a skill.
o'quinn & thomas serviceable bench players and these are the types of players who may be affected most by the disjointedness of the offense because of the egocentric sort of nonsense we saw today.
seraphin he does not deserve minutes. he has some attitude issues the way he plays and his lack of conditioning.
porzingis he alters shots of every assignment he has. he got jobbed on a couple of foul calls. fisher had a right to be upset. and the hustle? i have said this about porzingis: he has a chance to be a kevin garnett type of player, and with a three point shot. knicks are lucky and kudos to phil jackson. as it is i consider him the knicks most important player. i know this will drive the melo worshippers crazy. don't care

in spite of all this there is one overarching thing to this game, which is the coaching staff's being able to distribute minutes more concisely, especially if afflalo returns. remember afflalo?

so... monday morning and basketballreference.com http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201511080NYK.html?lid=yesterday_games_box comes out with it's box score-- the advanced box score says a lot about grant in terms of point guard skills, ie his usage to assist ratio is .28:1 which of course is off the charts terrific. obviously is shooting hurt(s) the knicks, as did his defense.

if you look at the usage to assist ratios for bryant and melo, it was clearly the bryant and melo show, with bryant clocking on at an unacceptable 1.83:1 and melo at his usual unacceptable 2.5:1. so lets not chime in with "melo passed the ball, melo shared the ball." he didn't. and combined with taking 5-6 bad shots, these two things hurt the team. on defense he sorta/kinda held his own, albeit in a shootout with his "big brother." lets hope he reverts to being a better team player, something he has already demonstrated he can do, happily.

as to lopez, i did give him short shrift when clearly this was one of his better games, if not his best game. it isn't the four "raw" assists, it is his usage/ast ratio, a fantastic .76:1 which is elite and defines a center as a playmaker. if he puts up this sort of ratio then that will be a huge factor in the knicks win total this season-- this is noah, gasol territory. and 5 offensive rebounds!

Stats don't always tell the whole story

no they don't-- but they do illuminate, which is all i am doing here when i utilize them. if they contradict your interpretation of what you saw (the eye test) then that is a learning opportunity for you. and that is not a dig at you, it is a friendly suggestion.

dk7th wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

dk7th wrote:

dk7th wrote:MVP!MVP!MVP!MVP! fukk these bryant/laker fans in msg. i mean wtf are you kidding me?!? god all-fukkin mighty

this game was exciting in spurts but overall i found it unwatchable because of the egos involved. "just two guys having fun". okay i guess this acceptable for most fans but still.... it was "entertaining" in the worst possible sense of the term. as trautwig said: "the game had no soul." this is not a "good win" because the team looked disjointed. but it WAS a "needed" win.

galloway kid is cluuuuuutch. he has to get starters minutes even if he doesn't start... and i hope he does.
calderon maybe this gets him going... don't know, don't care. he isn't the future, galloway is. somebody mentioned he should just be a spot up shooter-- i agree, and that has been my position since the summer when other posters siad that he had to get minutes as the starter. i didn't even want to see him in the rotation.... but what are we doing having a starter who doesn't play any defense?!?
grant he is going to have to figure out how to adapt now that it is clear he is not a good shooter. just as troubling is his struggles finishing around the basket and two time he made terrible passes from the baseline off stifled drives, that happened to find their way to calderon one time and then melo another. but still... he picked up his dribble which is a big no-no. it's okay. he is going to need more time and frankly he looks like a 16 minute per game player as of right now. we shall see.
melo ego and inefficiency, pissing contest and playground ball... i lost track of poor shots today, and the negative effect it has on the offense is undeniable.
lopez he had floor impact again today doing the things he is being paid to do.
williams an okay game from him but he is showing his limitations as a player. does not have court vision or savvy but he is a terrific athlete and i love the way he can draw fouls and get to the line. that is a skill.
o'quinn & thomas serviceable bench players and these are the types of players who may be affected most by the disjointedness of the offense because of the egocentric sort of nonsense we saw today.
seraphin he does not deserve minutes. he has some attitude issues the way he plays and his lack of conditioning.
porzingis he alters shots of every assignment he has. he got jobbed on a couple of foul calls. fisher had a right to be upset. and the hustle? i have said this about porzingis: he has a chance to be a kevin garnett type of player, and with a three point shot. knicks are lucky and kudos to phil jackson. as it is i consider him the knicks most important player. i know this will drive the melo worshippers crazy. don't care

in spite of all this there is one overarching thing to this game, which is the coaching staff's being able to distribute minutes more concisely, especially if afflalo returns. remember afflalo?

so... monday morning and basketballreference.com http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201511080NYK.html?lid=yesterday_games_box comes out with it's box score-- the advanced box score says a lot about grant in terms of point guard skills, ie his usage to assist ratio is .28:1 which of course is off the charts terrific. obviously is shooting hurt(s) the knicks, as did his defense.

if you look at the usage to assist ratios for bryant and melo, it was clearly the bryant and melo show, with bryant clocking on at an unacceptable 1.83:1 and melo at his usual unacceptable 2.5:1. so lets not chime in with "melo passed the ball, melo shared the ball." he didn't. and combined with taking 5-6 bad shots, these two things hurt the team. on defense he sorta/kinda held his own, albeit in a shootout with his "big brother." lets hope he reverts to being a better team player, something he has already demonstrated he can do, happily.

as to lopez, i did give him short shrift when clearly this was one of his better games, if not his best game. it isn't the four "raw" assists, it is his usage/ast ratio, a fantastic .76:1 which is elite and defines a center as a playmaker. if he puts up this sort of ratio then that will be a huge factor in the knicks win total this season-- this is noah, gasol territory. and 5 offensive rebounds!

Stats don't always tell the whole story

no they don't-- but they do illuminate, which is all i am doing here when i utilize them. if they contradict your interpretation of what you saw (the eye test) then that is a learning opportunity for you. and that is not a dig at you, it is a friendly suggestion.

holfresh wrote:

dk7th wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

dk7th wrote:

dk7th wrote:MVP!MVP!MVP!MVP! fukk these bryant/laker fans in msg. i mean wtf are you kidding me?!? god all-fukkin mighty

this game was exciting in spurts but overall i found it unwatchable because of the egos involved. "just two guys having fun". okay i guess this acceptable for most fans but still.... it was "entertaining" in the worst possible sense of the term. as trautwig said: "the game had no soul." this is not a "good win" because the team looked disjointed. but it WAS a "needed" win.

galloway kid is cluuuuuutch. he has to get starters minutes even if he doesn't start... and i hope he does.
calderon maybe this gets him going... don't know, don't care. he isn't the future, galloway is. somebody mentioned he should just be a spot up shooter-- i agree, and that has been my position since the summer when other posters siad that he had to get minutes as the starter. i didn't even want to see him in the rotation.... but what are we doing having a starter who doesn't play any defense?!?
grant he is going to have to figure out how to adapt now that it is clear he is not a good shooter. just as troubling is his struggles finishing around the basket and two time he made terrible passes from the baseline off stifled drives, that happened to find their way to calderon one time and then melo another. but still... he picked up his dribble which is a big no-no. it's okay. he is going to need more time and frankly he looks like a 16 minute per game player as of right now. we shall see.
melo ego and inefficiency, pissing contest and playground ball... i lost track of poor shots today, and the negative effect it has on the offense is undeniable.
lopez he had floor impact again today doing the things he is being paid to do.
williams an okay game from him but he is showing his limitations as a player. does not have court vision or savvy but he is a terrific athlete and i love the way he can draw fouls and get to the line. that is a skill.
o'quinn & thomas serviceable bench players and these are the types of players who may be affected most by the disjointedness of the offense because of the egocentric sort of nonsense we saw today.
seraphin he does not deserve minutes. he has some attitude issues the way he plays and his lack of conditioning.
porzingis he alters shots of every assignment he has. he got jobbed on a couple of foul calls. fisher had a right to be upset. and the hustle? i have said this about porzingis: he has a chance to be a kevin garnett type of player, and with a three point shot. knicks are lucky and kudos to phil jackson. as it is i consider him the knicks most important player. i know this will drive the melo worshippers crazy. don't care

in spite of all this there is one overarching thing to this game, which is the coaching staff's being able to distribute minutes more concisely, especially if afflalo returns. remember afflalo?

so... monday morning and basketballreference.com http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201511080NYK.html?lid=yesterday_games_box comes out with it's box score-- the advanced box score says a lot about grant in terms of point guard skills, ie his usage to assist ratio is .28:1 which of course is off the charts terrific. obviously is shooting hurt(s) the knicks, as did his defense.

if you look at the usage to assist ratios for bryant and melo, it was clearly the bryant and melo show, with bryant clocking on at an unacceptable 1.83:1 and melo at his usual unacceptable 2.5:1. so lets not chime in with "melo passed the ball, melo shared the ball." he didn't. and combined with taking 5-6 bad shots, these two things hurt the team. on defense he sorta/kinda held his own, albeit in a shootout with his "big brother." lets hope he reverts to being a better team player, something he has already demonstrated he can do, happily.

as to lopez, i did give him short shrift when clearly this was one of his better games, if not his best game. it isn't the four "raw" assists, it is his usage/ast ratio, a fantastic .76:1 which is elite and defines a center as a playmaker. if he puts up this sort of ratio then that will be a huge factor in the knicks win total this season-- this is noah, gasol territory. and 5 offensive rebounds!

Stats don't always tell the whole story

no they don't-- but they do illuminate, which is all i am doing here when i utilize them. if they contradict your interpretation of what you saw (the eye test) then that is a learning opportunity for you. and that is not a dig at you, it is a friendly suggestion.

No, I don't agree..U are asking a 31 year old sf/pf the create opportunities for the rest of the team...That's a lot of energy he has to expend..Melo should be doing what he is doing in spots...Melos value is that he attracts so much attention from opposing defenses...Ideally you want a big guard with young legs doing what Melo is trying to do..

you are insane.. going one on one, one on two, one on three-- often creating and absorbing contact-- takes far more energy than passing and moving without the ball. he has already demonstrated he can create opportunities for others and within the flow of the offense, and not in a desperate last ditch manner. for everyone else this is encouraging, but nope, not for "u." instead you want two games to be going on, one for melo and another for the other 4 "teammates."

he has an opportunity to grow and expand his game but you'd rather have him be indulged, feeding his flaws.

dk7th wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

dk7th wrote:

dk7th wrote:MVP!MVP!MVP!MVP! fukk these bryant/laker fans in msg. i mean wtf are you kidding me?!? god all-fukkin mighty

this game was exciting in spurts but overall i found it unwatchable because of the egos involved. "just two guys having fun". okay i guess this acceptable for most fans but still.... it was "entertaining" in the worst possible sense of the term. as trautwig said: "the game had no soul." this is not a "good win" because the team looked disjointed. but it WAS a "needed" win.

galloway kid is cluuuuuutch. he has to get starters minutes even if he doesn't start... and i hope he does.
calderon maybe this gets him going... don't know, don't care. he isn't the future, galloway is. somebody mentioned he should just be a spot up shooter-- i agree, and that has been my position since the summer when other posters siad that he had to get minutes as the starter. i didn't even want to see him in the rotation.... but what are we doing having a starter who doesn't play any defense?!?
grant he is going to have to figure out how to adapt now that it is clear he is not a good shooter. just as troubling is his struggles finishing around the basket and two time he made terrible passes from the baseline off stifled drives, that happened to find their way to calderon one time and then melo another. but still... he picked up his dribble which is a big no-no. it's okay. he is going to need more time and frankly he looks like a 16 minute per game player as of right now. we shall see.
melo ego and inefficiency, pissing contest and playground ball... i lost track of poor shots today, and the negative effect it has on the offense is undeniable.
lopez he had floor impact again today doing the things he is being paid to do.
williams an okay game from him but he is showing his limitations as a player. does not have court vision or savvy but he is a terrific athlete and i love the way he can draw fouls and get to the line. that is a skill.
o'quinn & thomas serviceable bench players and these are the types of players who may be affected most by the disjointedness of the offense because of the egocentric sort of nonsense we saw today.
seraphin he does not deserve minutes. he has some attitude issues the way he plays and his lack of conditioning.
porzingis he alters shots of every assignment he has. he got jobbed on a couple of foul calls. fisher had a right to be upset. and the hustle? i have said this about porzingis: he has a chance to be a kevin garnett type of player, and with a three point shot. knicks are lucky and kudos to phil jackson. as it is i consider him the knicks most important player. i know this will drive the melo worshippers crazy. don't care

in spite of all this there is one overarching thing to this game, which is the coaching staff's being able to distribute minutes more concisely, especially if afflalo returns. remember afflalo?

so... monday morning and basketballreference.com http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201511080NYK.html?lid=yesterday_games_box comes out with it's box score-- the advanced box score says a lot about grant in terms of point guard skills, ie his usage to assist ratio is .28:1 which of course is off the charts terrific. obviously is shooting hurt(s) the knicks, as did his defense.

if you look at the usage to assist ratios for bryant and melo, it was clearly the bryant and melo show, with bryant clocking on at an unacceptable 1.83:1 and melo at his usual unacceptable 2.5:1. so lets not chime in with "melo passed the ball, melo shared the ball." he didn't. and combined with taking 5-6 bad shots, these two things hurt the team. on defense he sorta/kinda held his own, albeit in a shootout with his "big brother." lets hope he reverts to being a better team player, something he has already demonstrated he can do, happily.

as to lopez, i did give him short shrift when clearly this was one of his better games, if not his best game. it isn't the four "raw" assists, it is his usage/ast ratio, a fantastic .76:1 which is elite and defines a center as a playmaker. if he puts up this sort of ratio then that will be a huge factor in the knicks win total this season-- this is noah, gasol territory. and 5 offensive rebounds!

Stats don't always tell the whole story

no they don't-- but they do illuminate, which is all i am doing here when i utilize them. if they contradict your interpretation of what you saw (the eye test) then that is a learning opportunity for you. and that is not a dig at you, it is a friendly suggestion.

Lol yes, learn NOT to trust your eyes, but some stats (numbers) published on some website. Sure, dude.

dk7th wrote:

holfresh wrote:

dk7th wrote:

holfresh wrote:

dk7th wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

dk7th wrote:

dk7th wrote:MVP!MVP!MVP!MVP! fukk these bryant/laker fans in msg. i mean wtf are you kidding me?!? god all-fukkin mighty

this game was exciting in spurts but overall i found it unwatchable because of the egos involved. "just two guys having fun". okay i guess this acceptable for most fans but still.... it was "entertaining" in the worst possible sense of the term. as trautwig said: "the game had no soul." this is not a "good win" because the team looked disjointed. but it WAS a "needed" win.

galloway kid is cluuuuuutch. he has to get starters minutes even if he doesn't start... and i hope he does.
calderon maybe this gets him going... don't know, don't care. he isn't the future, galloway is. somebody mentioned he should just be a spot up shooter-- i agree, and that has been my position since the summer when other posters siad that he had to get minutes as the starter. i didn't even want to see him in the rotation.... but what are we doing having a starter who doesn't play any defense?!?
grant he is going to have to figure out how to adapt now that it is clear he is not a good shooter. just as troubling is his struggles finishing around the basket and two time he made terrible passes from the baseline off stifled drives, that happened to find their way to calderon one time and then melo another. but still... he picked up his dribble which is a big no-no. it's okay. he is going to need more time and frankly he looks like a 16 minute per game player as of right now. we shall see.
melo ego and inefficiency, pissing contest and playground ball... i lost track of poor shots today, and the negative effect it has on the offense is undeniable.
lopez he had floor impact again today doing the things he is being paid to do.
williams an okay game from him but he is showing his limitations as a player. does not have court vision or savvy but he is a terrific athlete and i love the way he can draw fouls and get to the line. that is a skill.
o'quinn & thomas serviceable bench players and these are the types of players who may be affected most by the disjointedness of the offense because of the egocentric sort of nonsense we saw today.
seraphin he does not deserve minutes. he has some attitude issues the way he plays and his lack of conditioning.
porzingis he alters shots of every assignment he has. he got jobbed on a couple of foul calls. fisher had a right to be upset. and the hustle? i have said this about porzingis: he has a chance to be a kevin garnett type of player, and with a three point shot. knicks are lucky and kudos to phil jackson. as it is i consider him the knicks most important player. i know this will drive the melo worshippers crazy. don't care

in spite of all this there is one overarching thing to this game, which is the coaching staff's being able to distribute minutes more concisely, especially if afflalo returns. remember afflalo?

so... monday morning and basketballreference.com http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201511080NYK.html?lid=yesterday_games_box comes out with it's box score-- the advanced box score says a lot about grant in terms of point guard skills, ie his usage to assist ratio is .28:1 which of course is off the charts terrific. obviously is shooting hurt(s) the knicks, as did his defense.

if you look at the usage to assist ratios for bryant and melo, it was clearly the bryant and melo show, with bryant clocking on at an unacceptable 1.83:1 and melo at his usual unacceptable 2.5:1. so lets not chime in with "melo passed the ball, melo shared the ball." he didn't. and combined with taking 5-6 bad shots, these two things hurt the team. on defense he sorta/kinda held his own, albeit in a shootout with his "big brother." lets hope he reverts to being a better team player, something he has already demonstrated he can do, happily.

as to lopez, i did give him short shrift when clearly this was one of his better games, if not his best game. it isn't the four "raw" assists, it is his usage/ast ratio, a fantastic .76:1 which is elite and defines a center as a playmaker. if he puts up this sort of ratio then that will be a huge factor in the knicks win total this season-- this is noah, gasol territory. and 5 offensive rebounds!

Stats don't always tell the whole story

no they don't-- but they do illuminate, which is all i am doing here when i utilize them. if they contradict your interpretation of what you saw (the eye test) then that is a learning opportunity for you. and that is not a dig at you, it is a friendly suggestion.

No, I don't agree..U are asking a 31 year old sf/pf the create opportunities for the rest of the team...That's a lot of energy he has to expend..Melo should be doing what he is doing in spots...Melos value is that he attracts so much attention from opposing defenses...Ideally you want a big guard with young legs doing what Melo is trying to do..

you are insane.. going one on one, one on two, one on three-- often creating and absorbing contact-- takes far more energy than passing and moving without the ball. he has already demonstrated he can create opportunities for others and within the flow of the offense, and not in a desperate last ditch manner. for everyone else this is encouraging, but nope, not for "u." instead you want two games to be going on, one for melo and another for the other 4 "teammates."

he has an opportunity to grow and expand his game but you'd rather have him be indulged, feeding his flaws.

Having high usage does mean you are going one on one, or one on two..He is 31, he is what he is...What you have to do is change players around him...Add talent so he doesn't have to do everything or make every decision on every offensive play...It's not rocket science...

he has had nothing but players change around him his entire career.. maybe this it's time fro HIM to change. he has already shown he can, but does he have the will and the mind to do so?

as to your understanding of statistics and their limitations, you are just plain wrong: the more statistics collected over time, the greater the accuracy in terms of detecting patterns of play, both successful and unsuccessful. where you have a quarrel is HOW those statistics are used, especially in certain combinations. for instance i don't like PER because it favors volume shooting. you don't like TS% because you don't think free throws and drawing fouls don't count as the measure of a player.

but in this case you cannot talk about usage without looking at his assist rate, which is the assists generated when he is on the floor. his ratio for his career is close to 2.5:1 and when he gets the ratio closer to 1.4:1 he is helping his team, mitigating his poor shooting by passing the ball effectively and not as an act of desperation.

when he can put together a game with 1.4:1 usage/assist ratio, take no more than 18 shots, and not take any bad shots (or perhaps at least limit bad shots to 1 or 2 a game), the knicks will win 75% of the time.

So winning is not about talent, it about adherence to limits within usage and shot count?

newyorknewyork wrote:

holfresh wrote:

dk7th wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

dk7th wrote:

dk7th wrote:MVP!MVP!MVP!MVP! fukk these bryant/laker fans in msg. i mean wtf are you kidding me?!? god all-fukkin mighty

this game was exciting in spurts but overall i found it unwatchable because of the egos involved. "just two guys having fun". okay i guess this acceptable for most fans but still.... it was "entertaining" in the worst possible sense of the term. as trautwig said: "the game had no soul." this is not a "good win" because the team looked disjointed. but it WAS a "needed" win.

galloway kid is cluuuuuutch. he has to get starters minutes even if he doesn't start... and i hope he does.
calderon maybe this gets him going... don't know, don't care. he isn't the future, galloway is. somebody mentioned he should just be a spot up shooter-- i agree, and that has been my position since the summer when other posters siad that he had to get minutes as the starter. i didn't even want to see him in the rotation.... but what are we doing having a starter who doesn't play any defense?!?
grant he is going to have to figure out how to adapt now that it is clear he is not a good shooter. just as troubling is his struggles finishing around the basket and two time he made terrible passes from the baseline off stifled drives, that happened to find their way to calderon one time and then melo another. but still... he picked up his dribble which is a big no-no. it's okay. he is going to need more time and frankly he looks like a 16 minute per game player as of right now. we shall see.
melo ego and inefficiency, pissing contest and playground ball... i lost track of poor shots today, and the negative effect it has on the offense is undeniable.
lopez he had floor impact again today doing the things he is being paid to do.
williams an okay game from him but he is showing his limitations as a player. does not have court vision or savvy but he is a terrific athlete and i love the way he can draw fouls and get to the line. that is a skill.
o'quinn & thomas serviceable bench players and these are the types of players who may be affected most by the disjointedness of the offense because of the egocentric sort of nonsense we saw today.
seraphin he does not deserve minutes. he has some attitude issues the way he plays and his lack of conditioning.
porzingis he alters shots of every assignment he has. he got jobbed on a couple of foul calls. fisher had a right to be upset. and the hustle? i have said this about porzingis: he has a chance to be a kevin garnett type of player, and with a three point shot. knicks are lucky and kudos to phil jackson. as it is i consider him the knicks most important player. i know this will drive the melo worshippers crazy. don't care

in spite of all this there is one overarching thing to this game, which is the coaching staff's being able to distribute minutes more concisely, especially if afflalo returns. remember afflalo?

so... monday morning and basketballreference.com http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201511080NYK.html?lid=yesterday_games_box comes out with it's box score-- the advanced box score says a lot about grant in terms of point guard skills, ie his usage to assist ratio is .28:1 which of course is off the charts terrific. obviously is shooting hurt(s) the knicks, as did his defense.

if you look at the usage to assist ratios for bryant and melo, it was clearly the bryant and melo show, with bryant clocking on at an unacceptable 1.83:1 and melo at his usual unacceptable 2.5:1. so lets not chime in with "melo passed the ball, melo shared the ball." he didn't. and combined with taking 5-6 bad shots, these two things hurt the team. on defense he sorta/kinda held his own, albeit in a shootout with his "big brother." lets hope he reverts to being a better team player, something he has already demonstrated he can do, happily.

as to lopez, i did give him short shrift when clearly this was one of his better games, if not his best game. it isn't the four "raw" assists, it is his usage/ast ratio, a fantastic .76:1 which is elite and defines a center as a playmaker. if he puts up this sort of ratio then that will be a huge factor in the knicks win total this season-- this is noah, gasol territory. and 5 offensive rebounds!

Stats don't always tell the whole story

no they don't-- but they do illuminate, which is all i am doing here when i utilize them. if they contradict your interpretation of what you saw (the eye test) then that is a learning opportunity for you. and that is not a dig at you, it is a friendly suggestion.

It actually doesn't illuminate much..You are trying to use stats to determine what a player usage, etc should be..What range is acceptable in your opinion..This dynamic is dictated by his role on the team not by some arbitrary number some holds against being good versus bad...It has to do with role and what type of offense versus vets/rookie ratio and the player role in the offense...There is such a wide dynamic of things to balance that merely saying such numbers are good or bad isn't really looking at the big picture...

The usage should be balanced by ast%. That I agree with, doesn't matter how high the usage is as long as its balanced by the ast %.

Doesn't matter though seems when it comes down to Melo. DK will only speak about what he doesn't like and that's it. So let him speak his mind and keep it moving. Melo held a 26-20 usage to ast% vs Cavs with strong defense. And a 30 usage to 35 ast% vs Bucks. Because these were in Melo's favor he didn't speak on these things. He spoke on the bad shots. Now that the usage - ast isn't in Melo's favor he will now comment on it.

Its not that he is wrong in his analysis, but he picks and chooses which areas he can critic when it comes to Melo.

no that is not true. i want melo to do well, always have. never mind the trade or the money. i am over that. it's about the medium-term future and how he can succeed in a knick uniform. the problem is that he rarely puts together a complete game in terms of efficient shooting, proper sharing of the ball, and defense. so no, you're wrong about my picking and choosing to keep my proverbial foot on his proverbial neck.

when he does put together a complete game, i will praise him unequivocally-- that is a promise. meantime it's not my problem if he doesn't, it's the knicks and fisher's problem to solve. however the problem will not be solved unless melo wants it to be solved. even then, i question his mental toughness and focus.

holfresh wrote:

dk7th wrote:

holfresh wrote:

dk7th wrote:

holfresh wrote:

dk7th wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

dk7th wrote:

dk7th wrote:MVP!MVP!MVP!MVP! fukk these bryant/laker fans in msg. i mean wtf are you kidding me?!? god all-fukkin mighty

this game was exciting in spurts but overall i found it unwatchable because of the egos involved. "just two guys having fun". okay i guess this acceptable for most fans but still.... it was "entertaining" in the worst possible sense of the term. as trautwig said: "the game had no soul." this is not a "good win" because the team looked disjointed. but it WAS a "needed" win.

galloway kid is cluuuuuutch. he has to get starters minutes even if he doesn't start... and i hope he does.
calderon maybe this gets him going... don't know, don't care. he isn't the future, galloway is. somebody mentioned he should just be a spot up shooter-- i agree, and that has been my position since the summer when other posters siad that he had to get minutes as the starter. i didn't even want to see him in the rotation.... but what are we doing having a starter who doesn't play any defense?!?
grant he is going to have to figure out how to adapt now that it is clear he is not a good shooter. just as troubling is his struggles finishing around the basket and two time he made terrible passes from the baseline off stifled drives, that happened to find their way to calderon one time and then melo another. but still... he picked up his dribble which is a big no-no. it's okay. he is going to need more time and frankly he looks like a 16 minute per game player as of right now. we shall see.
melo ego and inefficiency, pissing contest and playground ball... i lost track of poor shots today, and the negative effect it has on the offense is undeniable.
lopez he had floor impact again today doing the things he is being paid to do.
williams an okay game from him but he is showing his limitations as a player. does not have court vision or savvy but he is a terrific athlete and i love the way he can draw fouls and get to the line. that is a skill.
o'quinn & thomas serviceable bench players and these are the types of players who may be affected most by the disjointedness of the offense because of the egocentric sort of nonsense we saw today.
seraphin he does not deserve minutes. he has some attitude issues the way he plays and his lack of conditioning.
porzingis he alters shots of every assignment he has. he got jobbed on a couple of foul calls. fisher had a right to be upset. and the hustle? i have said this about porzingis: he has a chance to be a kevin garnett type of player, and with a three point shot. knicks are lucky and kudos to phil jackson. as it is i consider him the knicks most important player. i know this will drive the melo worshippers crazy. don't care

in spite of all this there is one overarching thing to this game, which is the coaching staff's being able to distribute minutes more concisely, especially if afflalo returns. remember afflalo?

so... monday morning and basketballreference.com http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201511080NYK.html?lid=yesterday_games_box comes out with it's box score-- the advanced box score says a lot about grant in terms of point guard skills, ie his usage to assist ratio is .28:1 which of course is off the charts terrific. obviously is shooting hurt(s) the knicks, as did his defense.

if you look at the usage to assist ratios for bryant and melo, it was clearly the bryant and melo show, with bryant clocking on at an unacceptable 1.83:1 and melo at his usual unacceptable 2.5:1. so lets not chime in with "melo passed the ball, melo shared the ball." he didn't. and combined with taking 5-6 bad shots, these two things hurt the team. on defense he sorta/kinda held his own, albeit in a shootout with his "big brother." lets hope he reverts to being a better team player, something he has already demonstrated he can do, happily.

as to lopez, i did give him short shrift when clearly this was one of his better games, if not his best game. it isn't the four "raw" assists, it is his usage/ast ratio, a fantastic .76:1 which is elite and defines a center as a playmaker. if he puts up this sort of ratio then that will be a huge factor in the knicks win total this season-- this is noah, gasol territory. and 5 offensive rebounds!

Stats don't always tell the whole story

no they don't-- but they do illuminate, which is all i am doing here when i utilize them. if they contradict your interpretation of what you saw (the eye test) then that is a learning opportunity for you. and that is not a dig at you, it is a friendly suggestion.

No, I don't agree..U are asking a 31 year old sf/pf the create opportunities for the rest of the team...That's a lot of energy he has to expend..Melo should be doing what he is doing in spots...Melos value is that he attracts so much attention from opposing defenses...Ideally you want a big guard with young legs doing what Melo is trying to do..

you are insane.. going one on one, one on two, one on three-- often creating and absorbing contact-- takes far more energy than passing and moving without the ball. he has already demonstrated he can create opportunities for others and within the flow of the offense, and not in a desperate last ditch manner. for everyone else this is encouraging, but nope, not for "u." instead you want two games to be going on, one for melo and another for the other 4 "teammates."

he has an opportunity to grow and expand his game but you'd rather have him be indulged, feeding his flaws.

Having high usage does mean you are going one on one, or one on two..He is 31, he is what he is...What you have to do is change players around him...Add talent so he doesn't have to do everything or make every decision on every offensive play...It's not rocket science...

he has had nothing but players change around him his entire career.. maybe this it's time fro HIM to change. he has already shown he can, but does he have the will and the mind to do so?

as to your understanding of statistics and their limitations, you are just plain wrong: the more statistics collected over time, the greater the accuracy in terms of detecting patterns of play, both successful and unsuccessful. where you have a quarrel is HOW those statistics are used, especially in certain combinations. for instance i don't like PER because it favors volume shooting. you don't like TS% because you don't think free throws and drawing fouls don't count as the measure of a player.

but in this case you cannot talk about usage without looking at his assist rate, which is the assists generated when he is on the floor. his ratio for his career is close to 2.5:1 and when he gets the ratio closer to 1.4:1 he is helping his team, mitigating his poor shooting by passing the ball effectively and not as an act of desperation.

when he can put together a game with 1.4:1 usage/assist ratio, take no more than 18 shots, and not take any bad shots (or perhaps at least limit bad shots to 1 or 2 a game), the knicks will win 75% of the time.

So winning is not about talent, it about adherence to limits within usage and shot count?

winning is about channelling the talent and adapting to circumstances fluidly from one game to the next, one possession to the next. and winning is about pruning bad habits, inculcating good habits, and tightening up ones game accordingly.

guys with less talent but tight games will excel and win more than more talented guys with loose games.

dk7th wrote:

holfresh wrote:

dk7th wrote:

holfresh wrote:

dk7th wrote:

holfresh wrote:

dk7th wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

dk7th wrote:

dk7th wrote:MVP!MVP!MVP!MVP! fukk these bryant/laker fans in msg. i mean wtf are you kidding me?!? god all-fukkin mighty

this game was exciting in spurts but overall i found it unwatchable because of the egos involved. "just two guys having fun". okay i guess this acceptable for most fans but still.... it was "entertaining" in the worst possible sense of the term. as trautwig said: "the game had no soul." this is not a "good win" because the team looked disjointed. but it WAS a "needed" win.

galloway kid is cluuuuuutch. he has to get starters minutes even if he doesn't start... and i hope he does.
calderon maybe this gets him going... don't know, don't care. he isn't the future, galloway is. somebody mentioned he should just be a spot up shooter-- i agree, and that has been my position since the summer when other posters siad that he had to get minutes as the starter. i didn't even want to see him in the rotation.... but what are we doing having a starter who doesn't play any defense?!?
grant he is going to have to figure out how to adapt now that it is clear he is not a good shooter. just as troubling is his struggles finishing around the basket and two time he made terrible passes from the baseline off stifled drives, that happened to find their way to calderon one time and then melo another. but still... he picked up his dribble which is a big no-no. it's okay. he is going to need more time and frankly he looks like a 16 minute per game player as of right now. we shall see.
melo ego and inefficiency, pissing contest and playground ball... i lost track of poor shots today, and the negative effect it has on the offense is undeniable.
lopez he had floor impact again today doing the things he is being paid to do.
williams an okay game from him but he is showing his limitations as a player. does not have court vision or savvy but he is a terrific athlete and i love the way he can draw fouls and get to the line. that is a skill.
o'quinn & thomas serviceable bench players and these are the types of players who may be affected most by the disjointedness of the offense because of the egocentric sort of nonsense we saw today.
seraphin he does not deserve minutes. he has some attitude issues the way he plays and his lack of conditioning.
porzingis he alters shots of every assignment he has. he got jobbed on a couple of foul calls. fisher had a right to be upset. and the hustle? i have said this about porzingis: he has a chance to be a kevin garnett type of player, and with a three point shot. knicks are lucky and kudos to phil jackson. as it is i consider him the knicks most important player. i know this will drive the melo worshippers crazy. don't care

in spite of all this there is one overarching thing to this game, which is the coaching staff's being able to distribute minutes more concisely, especially if afflalo returns. remember afflalo?

so... monday morning and basketballreference.com http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201511080NYK.html?lid=yesterday_games_box comes out with it's box score-- the advanced box score says a lot about grant in terms of point guard skills, ie his usage to assist ratio is .28:1 which of course is off the charts terrific. obviously is shooting hurt(s) the knicks, as did his defense.

if you look at the usage to assist ratios for bryant and melo, it was clearly the bryant and melo show, with bryant clocking on at an unacceptable 1.83:1 and melo at his usual unacceptable 2.5:1. so lets not chime in with "melo passed the ball, melo shared the ball." he didn't. and combined with taking 5-6 bad shots, these two things hurt the team. on defense he sorta/kinda held his own, albeit in a shootout with his "big brother." lets hope he reverts to being a better team player, something he has already demonstrated he can do, happily.

as to lopez, i did give him short shrift when clearly this was one of his better games, if not his best game. it isn't the four "raw" assists, it is his usage/ast ratio, a fantastic .76:1 which is elite and defines a center as a playmaker. if he puts up this sort of ratio then that will be a huge factor in the knicks win total this season-- this is noah, gasol territory. and 5 offensive rebounds!

Stats don't always tell the whole story

no they don't-- but they do illuminate, which is all i am doing here when i utilize them. if they contradict your interpretation of what you saw (the eye test) then that is a learning opportunity for you. and that is not a dig at you, it is a friendly suggestion.

No, I don't agree..U are asking a 31 year old sf/pf the create opportunities for the rest of the team...That's a lot of energy he has to expend..Melo should be doing what he is doing in spots...Melos value is that he attracts so much attention from opposing defenses...Ideally you want a big guard with young legs doing what Melo is trying to do..

you are insane.. going one on one, one on two, one on three-- often creating and absorbing contact-- takes far more energy than passing and moving without the ball. he has already demonstrated he can create opportunities for others and within the flow of the offense, and not in a desperate last ditch manner. for everyone else this is encouraging, but nope, not for "u." instead you want two games to be going on, one for melo and another for the other 4 "teammates."

he has an opportunity to grow and expand his game but you'd rather have him be indulged, feeding his flaws.

Having high usage does mean you are going one on one, or one on two..He is 31, he is what he is...What you have to do is change players around him...Add talent so he doesn't have to do everything or make every decision on every offensive play...It's not rocket science...

he has had nothing but players change around him his entire career.. maybe this it's time fro HIM to change. he has already shown he can, but does he have the will and the mind to do so?

as to your understanding of statistics and their limitations, you are just plain wrong: the more statistics collected over time, the greater the accuracy in terms of detecting patterns of play, both successful and unsuccessful. where you have a quarrel is HOW those statistics are used, especially in certain combinations. for instance i don't like PER because it favors volume shooting. you don't like TS% because you don't think free throws and drawing fouls don't count as the measure of a player.

but in this case you cannot talk about usage without looking at his assist rate, which is the assists generated when he is on the floor. his ratio for his career is close to 2.5:1 and when he gets the ratio closer to 1.4:1 he is helping his team, mitigating his poor shooting by passing the ball effectively and not as an act of desperation.

when he can put together a game with 1.4:1 usage/assist ratio, take no more than 18 shots, and not take any bad shots (or perhaps at least limit bad shots to 1 or 2 a game), the knicks will win 75% of the time.

So winning is not about talent, it about adherence to limits within usage and shot count?

winning is about channelling the talent and adapting to circumstances fluidly from one game to the next, one possession to the next. and winning is about pruning bad habits, inculcating good habits, and tightening up ones game accordingly.

guys with less talent but tight games will excel and win more than more talented guys with loose games.

Winning is about loading up on 5 all stars like San Antonio, The Heat, Cavs so that those numbers you cherish are a by product and result of talent executing team play...Remember a by product not the future team goal, those numbers should be backward looking as oppose to what you are promoting...Also, the burden isn't on one player to make 14 others better...Certainly not at age 31..

jrodmc wrote:And when all else fails, you can always revert to the "he's not worth the money" argument...

Maybe we could let the mreinman post a few post game observation threads? Seems winning actually takes an edge off of some people's melohate.

mreinman wrote:

dk7th wrote:

mreinman wrote:

dk7th wrote:

mreinman wrote:very unfair to lopez and even to melo.

sorry but i was in a hurry to tune in to the giants game. we can discuss your quarrel with my brief observations later. meantime i just heard moose on fox talk about playing with other versus playing for others. where does melo fit in to this spectrum?

the question is if you see more team play from him. Which direction is he going? You know that I am all over him in games but if you counted the number of passes that he made today and the speed of his passes (not holding the ball) you would be surprised.

i see what you mean. however how many dumb shots did he take of the twenty he took? and at the expense of working the ball for a better shot?

5-7. Better than 10-12. under 5 is ok as long as they are not momentum killers and/or he did not miss a wide open teammate.

I was hoping Monday morning's analysis would provide some insight to Melo's momentum killer possession % as well as % of missed assist opportunities.

thats because I don't hate him, he just annoys me and not so much when we are winning.