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Carmelo--perfect NBA 4 man
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ChuckBuck
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10/7/2015  10:31 AM
gunsnewing wrote:
ChuckBuck wrote:Melo at the 4 only worked, because we had 2 point guards in the backcourt, and we set a franchise record for 3s that season. Eventually he broke down, sat some games due to the Wests and KG's pounding Melo into submission, then we saw the final outcome in the Indy series.

Forget Melo at the 4, won't work. Traditional lineups worked since the dawn of time. No need to get cute like Golden State, we don't have a Draymond Green or Harrison Barnes or Andre Iguodala that could play multiple positions, defend, pass, and play it all well.

Does GS even beat Lebron and Cleveland if Kevin Love had played?

It makes it closer for sure, especially if they let Love play more inside and not standing at the 3 pt line all day. Mozgov proved that you can play a big lineup to counter speedball lineups.

Let's play traditional, we don't have the roster to play speedball. You got like 4 or 5 guys 6'10 or taller on the roster. Play to your strengths.
AUTOADVERT
gunsnewing
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10/7/2015  10:33 AM
You can get by playing Draymond Green and Kawhi Leonard at the 4 at times because they are great defenders. Melo isn't. He is not even average defensively. Also Melo is a lot older than those guys and has been banged up enough already the last few years. So Briggs this isn't the same thing. Tell me why Melo play PF? Just because he fits the physical profile of those guys? Age, wear & tear & subpar defense is just over looked?
ChuckBuck
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10/7/2015  10:55 AM
gunsnewing wrote:You can get by playing Draymond Green and Kawhi Leonard at the 4 at times because they are great defenders. Melo isn't. He is not even average defensively. Also Melo is a lot older than those guys and has been banged up enough already the last few years. So Briggs this isn't the same thing. Tell me why Melo play PF? Just because he fits the physical profile of those guys? Age, wear & tear & subpar defense is just over looked?

This guy. He gets it.

You have a big roster constructed by Phil Jax who loves big lineups. Why create a roster mismatch and defensive deficiency from day 1? Let Melo play the small, because that's his natural position. No need to compound things and get everyone else in foul trouble, because Melo can't guard his man.
Finestrg
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10/7/2015  10:56 AM    LAST EDITED: 10/7/2015  11:25 AM
mreinman wrote:
Finestrg wrote:
ChuckBuck wrote:Melo at the 4 only worked, because we had 2 point guards in the backcourt, and we set a franchise record for 3s that season. Eventually he broke down, sat some games due to the Wests and KG's pounding Melo into submission, then we saw the final outcome in the Indy series.

Forget Melo at the 4, won't work. Traditional lineups worked since the dawn of time. No need to get cute like Golden State, we don't have a Draymond Green or Harrison Barnes or Andre Iguodala that could play multiple positions, defend, pass, and play it all well.

Can see it both ways but I tend to agree with you...You mentioned Iggy -- now Thanasis obviously isn't on his level yet but in terms of athleticism at the 2/3, overall game, defensive ability/two-way potential at that position etc., I think he resembles Iggy quite a bit. TA is my sleeper this year. I don't think it's unreasonable to think he could develop into a better version of Gerald Wilkins eventually, maybe something close to Andre Iguodala. If that's the case, that's a very useful rotation player for us.

the kid is an athletic freak! However, he will need much more consistency on his jump shot to be successful.


No question, but go take a look at a lot of his offensive highlights--I think he's a lot closer to being an offensive contributor in the NBA than some realize. And then there's the athleticism and defensive ability which looks top shelf. Very intriguing young player...I loved Gerald Wilkins, was always one of my favorite Knicks growing up, but looking back--he was a mixed bag offensively, esp. shooting the ball. No reason to believe that TA couldn't develop into a better shooter/better overall player than Wilkins and soon if he continues to put in the work. That'd be a damn good rotation player right there--we wouldn't have anything like him on the roster. I'd love to build this guy up to the point where we have him as a viable option to put on a Paul George, a Lebron James, etc--a guy that could play standout D on those guys PLUS make them work a little at the other end as well. I think he's close to that right now in fact. And obviously, if he could ever get himself close to Andre Iguodala's level of play, even better--that'd be one hell of a player...I'd love to hear that TA's in the gym every day working with a guy like H2O on his jumper. Developing TA should be one of their highest priorities imo, right up there with KP & Grant.

Up to me, I'd have TA working in the gym with Allan Houston whenever possible, putting up hundreds of jumpers at a time, and I'd have KP work with Hakeem Olajuwon heavily next off-season. We know KP can shoot the ball--developing a legit post game to complement his outside shooting should be a priority.
Finestrg
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10/7/2015  11:05 AM    LAST EDITED: 10/7/2015  11:13 AM
ChuckBuck wrote:
Finestrg wrote:
ChuckBuck wrote:Melo at the 4 only worked, because we had 2 point guards in the backcourt, and we set a franchise record for 3s that season. Eventually he broke down, sat some games due to the Wests and KG's pounding Melo into submission, then we saw the final outcome in the Indy series.

Forget Melo at the 4, won't work. Traditional lineups worked since the dawn of time. No need to get cute like Golden State, we don't have a Draymond Green or Harrison Barnes or Andre Iguodala that could play multiple positions, defend, pass, and play it all well.

Can see it both ways but I tend to agree with you...You mentioned Iggy -- now Thanasis obviously isn't on his level yet but in terms of athleticism at the 2/3, overall game, defensive ability/two-way potential at that position etc., I think he resembles Iggy quite a bit. TA is my sleeper this year. I don't think it's unreasonable to think he could develop into a better version of Gerald Wilkins eventually, maybe something close to Andre Iguodala. If that's the case, that's a very useful rotation player for us. They're gonna have to weigh developing a player like that vs. whatever they think Sasha Vujacic could give them.

Athletically, Thanasis has the "look" of an Iggy clone. You just can't teach that high BBall IQ, the making the extra pass, the defensive know how to make Lebron take the shots that Iggy wanted and not make Lebron get into rhythm, the veteran professionalism to be shuffled in and out as a starter or as a 6th man and play well either way.

I'm sorry Thanasis maybe called Greek Freak 2, but his younger brother got all the good bball genes in the family already. Same could be said for Seth Curry.

Just phuck the Melo at the 4 bullshyt already. Take one look at the roster construction for one long minute, and what's the first thing that comes to mind...."SIZE". Use that shyt. It's not rocket science, it's common sense.

Disagree with you on TA and Seth Curry--both of those guys may not be as good as their brothers but they're each talented enough for the NBA imo...I do agree with you about using our size against teams though. As of right now, our size clearly looks to be a team strength. I think you have the best chance at success playing to your strengths.
nixluva
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10/7/2015  11:16 AM
ChuckBuck wrote:
gunsnewing wrote:
ChuckBuck wrote:Melo at the 4 only worked, because we had 2 point guards in the backcourt, and we set a franchise record for 3s that season. Eventually he broke down, sat some games due to the Wests and KG's pounding Melo into submission, then we saw the final outcome in the Indy series.

Forget Melo at the 4, won't work. Traditional lineups worked since the dawn of time. No need to get cute like Golden State, we don't have a Draymond Green or Harrison Barnes or Andre Iguodala that could play multiple positions, defend, pass, and play it all well.

Does GS even beat Lebron and Cleveland if Kevin Love had played?

It makes it closer for sure, especially if they let Love play more inside and not standing at the 3 pt line all day. Mozgov proved that you can play a big lineup to counter speedball lineups.

Let's play traditional, we don't have the roster to play speedball. You got like 4 or 5 guys 6'10 or taller on the roster. Play to your strengths.


Yeah Phil clearly was going for more of a Power game with this roster. Playing small against the Knicks may not be a good idea. We are going to be able to pound teams inside with really massive guys like Seraphin, O'quinn and RoLo. They will always be near the basket in this offense. They are big and strong enough to hold their positions and score inside. This was a huge missing element to the Triangle last year. When you don't have guard or wing penetration or post up penetration, you end up with nothing but a lot of jumpers. That's not what the Triangle is actually about.

Phil always liked the idea of having a big man presence to get inside and create more space for the offense and at the same time give the team a strong defensive presence on the other end. Defense, Rebounds and Post Play.
WaltLongmire
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10/7/2015  11:20 AM    LAST EDITED: 10/7/2015  2:36 PM
Much will depend on how Anthony does on D at the 3 position. Perhaps Briggs fears that Carmelo won't be able to guard most SFs.

Briggs...If you look at how we drafted and who we picked up in FA, I can't see Melo getting major minutes at the 4. I think you have to accept the fact that we are bucking the trend in terms of offensive systems. Maybe Fisher creates a hybrid offense that incorporates the Triangle with the stretch game...I don't know, but I just can't see Carmelo starting at the 4 unless things get really bad.

KP is the perfect piece for Jackson/Fisher because he has the size and court awareness to be a good help defender, and is developing a post game, but he is also used to the stretch 4 position, which I saw him play last year. I know that this is not our system, but he can play that system quite well, and has the outside shot to do many of the things Green did last year. Against smaller teams you can also throw him in at center, too, and not worry about him getting bullied down low.

I still feel that team with versatility, good D at the guard position, and size on the frontline can handle smaller teams, and make a team like GS pay when they throw a small lineup at you.

We have a flexible roster, with a lot of guys who might be able to play multiple positions. Just a matter of guys getting comfortable with each other and the system.

Expect growing pains, but I think we should have a solid second half as things fall into place.

EnySpree: Can we agree to agree not to mention Phil Jackson and triangle for the rest of our lives?
SupremeCommander
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10/7/2015  11:22 AM
WaltLongmire wrote:Much will depend on how Anthony does on D at the 3 position. Perhaps Briggs fears that Carmelo won't be able to guard most SFs.

It's not just that it's that Melo is also a much more physical player and is more efficient when he is playing bully ball. Otherwise he is just the prototypical corner three chucker

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blkexec
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10/7/2015  11:29 AM    LAST EDITED: 10/7/2015  11:31 AM
BRIGGS wrote:I guess moving Paul George to PF can have significant benefits. Thats why every time I make a line up I put Carmelo at 4. Zinger is either a back up 5 or 4==hes not the main guy. In this NBA Carmelo Anthony--like the year we won 54 games--is an impossible match up nightmare at the 4. Putting Carmelo at the 4 with smarter pieces and better defense will help make the team to be much more competitive. From there its how much they can share the ball IN ADDITION to Melo and how good the % are in those other shots.

3 is the new 4......You said it yourself, with Paul George now playing the 4.

Maybe we should've traded Briggs with JR smith as a package deal. Both guys rather fight the system than play in the system. It doesn't matter where Melo plays in this system, he's going to be one of the top NBA scorers.

The question is, how many games did Melo play the following year after playing the 4....and guarding the 4's?

Why force Dantoni out one year....Then try to implement his system next year. What's next, you will ask for Mike Brown's ISO system to take advantage of KP's talent, and how the triangle is holding him back.

You know what, this forum wouldn't be here if it wasn't for these types of threads. I'm just glad I'm not the only one thats not afraid to challenge the ole wise 1. Sounds like most of us get it.

And I believe Phil loaded the team of bigs for a few reasons.
1. Thats Phils old position, so thats what he knows best.
2. The triangle needs healthy bigs that know how to pass.
3. KP has room to grow and will not be forced into extra minutes.
4. Melo is older and shouldn't guard the best forward while scoring the most points. Hard to do when approaching 40 (I'm a witness).

Born in Brooklyn, Raised in Queens, Lives in Maryland. The future is bright, I'm a Knicks fan for life!
nixluva
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10/7/2015  12:15 PM
Melo can be just as effective offensively if he buys into the flow of the offense. He has all of the skills necessary and doesn't have to rely on only one aspect of his skills. He will still get post looks so there's no issue there. This team needs for more than just Melo to be successful and so they need to play the guys they have at the C and PF spots. Melo for most of his career played SF and there's no reason he can't do it again. It's not like he suddenly lost all of those skills.

On Defense Melo is going to have to learn how to use his help behind him and force his man to put the ball on the floor and towards his help. I'm not expecting miracles from him on D. If he can just shave a couple of points off what he allows his man to score it would be a plus. More importantly Melo himself needs to score more efficiently. He can do that if he buys into the offense and takes smarter shots.
gunsnewing
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10/7/2015  12:37 PM
Playing Melo at the 4 goes against everything they have done to this roster and how to run the triangle effectively. Did you see how slim Melo is? His upper body is more like Kobe than the body of a player who is ready to taking a beating from opposing 4's. And I'm sure it's not by accident. Melo role as the primary scorer in this offense will be the same as Kobe & Jordan's role. He had to commit to bring in superior shape for it to work and so far he has. Hopefully it continues as the season progresses
blkexec
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10/7/2015  1:07 PM    LAST EDITED: 10/7/2015  1:08 PM
gunsnewing wrote:Playing Melo at the 4 goes against everything they have done to this roster and how to run the triangle effectively. Did you see how slim Melo is? His upper body is more like Kobe than the body of a player who is ready to taking a beating from opposing 4's. And I'm sure it's not by accident. Melo role as the primary scorer in this offense will be the same as Kobe & Jordan's role. He had to commit to bring in superior shape for it to work and so far he has. Hopefully it continues as the season progresses

Thats why it doesn't matter where Melo plays. On offense, he will be a beast regardless who's guarding him. And on defense, if I was Fisher, I would put him on easier players to guard, instead of using all his energy to shut down Lebron, like he's done in the past.
We need his offense more than his defense. Especially with this roster!

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Finestrg
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10/7/2015  1:17 PM    LAST EDITED: 10/7/2015  1:43 PM
gunsnewing wrote:Playing Melo at the 4 goes against everything they have done to this roster and how to run the triangle effectively. Did you see how slim Melo is? His upper body is more like Kobe than the body of a player who is ready to taking a beating from opposing 4's. And I'm sure it's not by accident. Melo role as the primary scorer in this offense will be the same as Kobe & Jordan's role. He had to commit to bring in superior shape for it to work and so far he has. Hopefully it continues as the season progresses

Good point. I agree with you there. I asked the question the other day--why go out and load up on all these big men if the plan wasn't to use them? Even Seraphin -- sounds like Fisher and Mills went out of their way to talk Phil into signing this guy. It would surprise me to see Seraphin not get court time now after hearing that...In order to get all these bigs enough time, Melo will have to play 3. With Melo at the 3 it would create enough PT to get all the bigs in there -- say Lopez and O'Quinn start--you figure they'll be backed up by Seraphin and KP (or flip flop O'Quinn and KP--sounds like Fish could start KP tonight -- if he responds well, it may be something they look to keep), then D-Will backs up Melo at the 3. One guy that could get shut out completely is Early -- just don't see how he fits in on this team... I do think we'll see some Melo at the 4 though -- I have a funny feeling he prefers that position now (he seemed pleased that he would be playing the 4 the other day, almost giddy about it). He probably prefers banging down low on defense rather than chasing these quicker wings out on the perimeter, through screens, etc. I bet he feels the latter is more demanding/taxing at this stage in his career. He may have a point there in terms of preserving stamina, making sure he has enough left in the tank to close out individual games strong/finish the season strong, etc. I just don't know if that's in this team's best interest though given the way they restructured the roster...If we see Melo primarily at the 4, I think it'll be at his request and Fisher relents to keep him happy.

Afflalo will be missing tonight's game due to a strained left hammy. Al Iannazzone from Newsday: "Fishers options at SG are vet Sasha Vujacic, who has been impressive during camp, second-year guard Langston Galloway and rookie Jerian Grant." Why no mention of Thanasis Antetokounmpo? That's the guy I really wanna see esp. with Afflalo down. Calderon's gonna start at the point and really needn't play more than 10 mins or so. Grant, I wanna see play the point for most of the game. No real need to see him play off the ball--we know that will always be there. I wanna see him with the ball in his hands, even though many argue that in this offense you don't need that one ball-dominant initiator. Wouldn't mind see LG with the ball in his hands as well--let's see if he's made any progress there. Vujacic/Galloway will both get mins at the 2 -- I just hope Fish finds some time for TA tonight. He one of the players I'm most eager to find out more about.
gunsnewing
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10/7/2015  1:47 PM
I'm done talking about something that's never going to happen outside of the occasional time that the present matchup dictates him playing a little PF in a game. I thought Melo made him self very clear after his misleading opening statement that he would play the 4 and than Herring tweeted only that part. Leaving out the part where he said 3 or 4 it doesn't matter to him and it depends on the matchups. Of course it doesn't help when Briggs keeps telling Phil how to do his job
blkexec
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10/7/2015  1:55 PM
gunsnewing wrote:I'm done talking about something that's never going to happen outside of the occasional time that the present matchup dictates him playing a little PF in a game. I thought Melo made him self very clear after his misleading opening statement that he would play the 4 and than Herring tweeted only that part. Leaving out the part where he said 3 or 4 it doesn't matter to him and it depends on the matchups. Of course it doesn't help when Briggs keeps telling Phil how to do his job

Briggs is Phills alter ego. A snickers can solve that!

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10/7/2015  3:00 PM
ChuckBuck wrote:
crzymdups wrote:
ChuckBuck wrote:Melo at the 4 only worked, because we had 2 point guards in the backcourt, and we set a franchise record for 3s that season. Eventually he broke down, sat some games due to the Wests and KG's pounding Melo into submission, then we saw the final outcome in the Indy series.

Forget Melo at the 4, won't work. Traditional lineups worked since the dawn of time. No need to get cute like Golden State, we don't have a Draymond Green or Harrison Barnes or Andre Iguodala that could play multiple positions, defend, pass, and play it all well.

If the 54 win Knicks had some guys like Barnes and Iggy to put alongside Melo and guard guys like Lance Stephenson and Paul George, they could've beaten the Pacers.

I agree with Briggs that Melo is best at the 4. I think Melo at the 4 and Tyson at the 5 was the beginnings of a formula to be very very good. Unfortunately they rarely had any quality guys at the 1, 2, or 3.

54 win season was a mirage. You had Kidd-Felton or Felton- Prigioni, then you had Smith or Shump at the small. They rained 3s and led the league raining 3s. Once that well dried up, they got exposed.

Melo got West'ed and the rest is history. Let's not revisit bad history.

The last two years NBA champions (Spurs and Warriors) led the league in 3pt%. Raining threes is a pretty good way to win in the NBA.

¿ △ ?
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10/7/2015  4:24 PM    LAST EDITED: 10/7/2015  4:28 PM
WaltLongmire wrote:Much will depend on how Anthony does on D at the 3 position. Perhaps Briggs fears that Carmelo won't be able to guard most SFs.

Briggs...If you look at how we drafted and who we picked up in FA, I can't see Melo getting major minutes at the 4. I think you have to accept the fact that we are bucking the trend in terms of offensive systems. Maybe Fisher creates a hybrid offense that incorporates the Triangle with the stretch game...I don't know, but I just can't see Carmelo starting at the 4 unless things get really bad.

KP is the perfect piece for Jackson/Fisher because he has the size and court awareness to be a good help defender, and is developing a post game, but he is also used to the stretch 4 position, which I saw him play last year. I know that this is not our system, but he can play that system quite well, and has the outside shot to do many of the things Green did last year. Against smaller teams you can also throw him in at center, too, and not worry about him getting bullied down low.

I still feel that team with versatility, good D at the guard position, and size on the frontline can handle smaller teams, and make a team like GS pay when they throw a small lineup at you.

We have a flexible roster, with a lot of guys who might be able to play multiple positions. Just a matter of guys getting comfortable with each other and the system.

Expect growing pains, but I think we should have a solid second half as things fall into place.


Yeah, I agree about KP. The one thing we had during that 54 win season were wings who could hit the three. Brewer and Shuman shot way over their heads that season. If Melo is playing 4 with a non scoring threat at the other forward spot, it won't cause a mismatch. Opposing coaches will just play their best defender on Melo, double team him and force our guys to make shots. I'm hopeful KP's shot is solid enough to make opposing defenses honor him. If that happens, it won't matter whose three or four, especially in the triangle.
Always... always remember: Less is less. More is more. More is better and twice as much is good too. Not enough is bad, and too much is never enough except when it's just about right. - The Tick
WaltLongmire
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10/7/2015  4:24 PM
crzymdups wrote:
ChuckBuck wrote:
crzymdups wrote:
ChuckBuck wrote:Melo at the 4 only worked, because we had 2 point guards in the backcourt, and we set a franchise record for 3s that season. Eventually he broke down, sat some games due to the Wests and KG's pounding Melo into submission, then we saw the final outcome in the Indy series.

Forget Melo at the 4, won't work. Traditional lineups worked since the dawn of time. No need to get cute like Golden State, we don't have a Draymond Green or Harrison Barnes or Andre Iguodala that could play multiple positions, defend, pass, and play it all well.

If the 54 win Knicks had some guys like Barnes and Iggy to put alongside Melo and guard guys like Lance Stephenson and Paul George, they could've beaten the Pacers.

I agree with Briggs that Melo is best at the 4. I think Melo at the 4 and Tyson at the 5 was the beginnings of a formula to be very very good. Unfortunately they rarely had any quality guys at the 1, 2, or 3.

54 win season was a mirage. You had Kidd-Felton or Felton- Prigioni, then you had Smith or Shump at the small. They rained 3s and led the league raining 3s. Once that well dried up, they got exposed.

Melo got West'ed and the rest is history. Let's not revisit bad history.

The last two years NBA champions (Spurs and Warriors) led the league in 3pt%. Raining threes is a pretty good way to win in the NBA.


Spurs move the ball around for good looks...GS has Curry and Thompson.

If you are talking about shooting % you are talking about taking good shots or having players who are better at shooting the 3...No?

By the way, 15 other teams shot more 3s than the champion SA Spurs two years ago...one being the Knicks, who took the 5 most in the league and were well above the league average in %. I guess the raining thing doesn't always work.


Defending against them is also important- The Knicks were also the worst in the league in terms of 3pt% against, GS was the 5th best.

EnySpree: Can we agree to agree not to mention Phil Jackson and triangle for the rest of our lives?
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10/7/2015  5:11 PM
gunsnewing wrote:Playing Melo at the 4 goes against everything they have done to this roster and how to run the triangle effectively. Did you see how slim Melo is? His upper body is more like Kobe than the body of a player who is ready to taking a beating from opposing 4's. And I'm sure it's not by accident. Melo role as the primary scorer in this offense will be the same as Kobe & Jordan's role. He had to commit to bring in superior shape for it to work and so far he has. Hopefully it continues as the season progresses

So Me70 isn't really fat? Or are you just being sarcasnarky?

Either we're going to hear about how Melo can't play 4 because bully bull wears him down, or he's going to be eaten alive trying to guard threes on the wings. Can't wait for this season to start already...
nixluva
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10/7/2015  5:35 PM
WaltLongmire wrote:
crzymdups wrote:
ChuckBuck wrote:
crzymdups wrote:
ChuckBuck wrote:Melo at the 4 only worked, because we had 2 point guards in the backcourt, and we set a franchise record for 3s that season. Eventually he broke down, sat some games due to the Wests and KG's pounding Melo into submission, then we saw the final outcome in the Indy series.

Forget Melo at the 4, won't work. Traditional lineups worked since the dawn of time. No need to get cute like Golden State, we don't have a Draymond Green or Harrison Barnes or Andre Iguodala that could play multiple positions, defend, pass, and play it all well.

If the 54 win Knicks had some guys like Barnes and Iggy to put alongside Melo and guard guys like Lance Stephenson and Paul George, they could've beaten the Pacers.

I agree with Briggs that Melo is best at the 4. I think Melo at the 4 and Tyson at the 5 was the beginnings of a formula to be very very good. Unfortunately they rarely had any quality guys at the 1, 2, or 3.

54 win season was a mirage. You had Kidd-Felton or Felton- Prigioni, then you had Smith or Shump at the small. They rained 3s and led the league raining 3s. Once that well dried up, they got exposed.

Melo got West'ed and the rest is history. Let's not revisit bad history.

The last two years NBA champions (Spurs and Warriors) led the league in 3pt%. Raining threes is a pretty good way to win in the NBA.


Spurs move the ball around for good looks...GS has Curry and Thompson.

If you are talking about shooting % you are talking about taking good shots or having players who are better at shooting the 3...No?

By the way, 15 other teams shot more 3s than the champion SA Spurs two years ago...one being the Knicks, who took the 5 most in the league and were well above the league average in %. I guess the raining thing doesn't always work.


Defending against them is also important- The Knicks were also the worst in the league in terms of 3pt% against, GS was the 5th best.

Yeah the key is to be efficient on both ends. PERIOD. Doesn't really matter if you aren't the top 3pt shooting team. If you're one of the top efficient teams that's what matters most. Phil wants his team to be versatile and playoff capable. You don't want teams to be able to take away the 3 and that's pretty much all they need to stop you. This team will be able to score inside as well and not just from midrange or from 3. We should be able to draw a lot of fouls and get to the line a lot. Hopefully we can get some shot blocks and get easy transition points.
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