If everyone plays well, what do we do? Seraphin, O'Quinn, Lopez, Melo, Kristaps, Cleananthony and Derrick....we don't need one guy to emerge as a 20/10 guy, but if the guys all can collectively respond and play for one another on both sides, the Knicks could be back in business.

The talk of Durant is cool, but having a pulverizing defense and rebounding team would be what we have been crying for since the 90s. The potential is there.

knickscity wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

dk7th wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

dk7th wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:IDK, i keep seeing the same veteran teams win championship after championship, the teams like the hornets, raptors, celtics, wiz, ect that are developing their young talent for the last 2 to 3 yrs are only playoff teams that are done in rnd 1 or 2.

In 3 to 4 yrs we will be a 48 win team, with really no shot at being a contender if we go the development rout, if you don't believe me go look at the standings and see if any non playoff team in that time span are contenders now.

The teams that make significant jumps in the standings, are the teams that traded for marquee talent, veterans and have a really good experience coach. I would love to watch KP and grant grow, but they need to make significant strides, be above avg from the start, and the team needs to be winning big, or you'll get frustrated with them and trade them just like THJ, gallo, wilson, and lee

i don't see where you come to this conclusion. the warriors just won a title and they were not an elite team two seasons ago. the landscape is changing in the nba. last season the final four was atlanta, cleveland, houston, and golden state. memphis clippers and spurs are up there somewhere. other than the spurs and lebron, who is the only genuine, proven franchise player, the nba is in flux.

hence there is no reason to conclude that the knicks, if they remain patient and build from within, cannot become a top 6 team three seasons from now. 2015-2016 and 2016-2017 will be developmental seasons.

have a look at the list of summer 2017 free agents... it's eye-opening: http://www.spotrac.com/nba/free-agents/2017/

except for golden state, these teams were made up of trades, houston hasn't develop anyone since yao ming. Again, it was in the 90's when teams would develop their drafts and have patients. With the way things are now, your toast after 2 season of no playoffs.

Yes phil is trying to set a foundation of patients and trust, but how much trust did he have in THJ, or Shump, if it was all about a learning curb and build confidence and gelling.

So if for whatever reason grant is only a marginal upgrade over calderon, or KP is too much of a project, how patient will you be.

Im telling you now, the only way these players stay together for more than a season and a half, is if we make the playoffs. If someone comes to phil with a offer for a marquee player( paul george, CP3, ect) I can bet my life that KP or grant is gone.

I believe Phil would be very careful about trading KP. A trade for Paul George feels like the McDyess trade all over again. I believe he would trade for CP3 if Phil thought that the team now would be instant contenders, serious contenders. Not just a good showing. Paul is 30, he's been pretty healthy for the last few years, but that probably is going to change.

The Knicks have the highest pick since Ewing, KP looks like he could be something special. I want a very special player coming back in return who can give us more than one or two good seasons. Otherwise I would rather take my chances with KP, Grant, and some kind of long term plan.

the operative question for me is if knicks1248 would feel the same had we drafted any one of the three players ahead of porzingis?

I would trade anyone who will make my team instantly better/contender, that's the bottom line.

It's point less having melo on the knicks without a 2nd scorer and a real vocal leader, and that goes for JORDAN, KOBE, WADE, SHAQ. Those guys by themselves will win you a some games and then breakdown form the overload.

I don't want seem to demanding of the rooks, but i'm expecting "1st all team rookie" or I'm exploring trades.

Tim Jr was 1st team all rookie. Trust me, thats not a ringing endorsement, nor is that a high bar to achieve, dude was absolute garbage.

THJ is not garbage by any stretch, he's very one dimensional, but he'll get better.

Notice the difference in THJ from his rookie yr (mostly vets around him) and his second yr (team in a flux, lot of young players) where he seem to go backwards.

In order to develop a rookie, he has to be around very solid high level veterans. That's why the spurs rookies develop quicker, they don't have 5 to 6 young guys on their team at once, they grab 1 or 2 quality players late in the draft and go from there. They also seem to have a very high level and experience coaching and training staff.

When you have a bunch of young players playing together(phili, mini, hornets) they're all making the same mistakes, their work ethic isn't as intense, and they seem to develop at a slower pace, and most end up expendable, or out of the league in 3 to 4 yrs.

EnySpree wrote:I'm a big fan of Seraphin and O'Quinn.... i think one if not both are going to really impress us out there this season.

If everyone plays well, what do we do? Seraphin, O'Quinn, Lopez, Melo, Kristaps, Cleananthony and Derrick....we don't need one guy to emerge as a 20/10 guy, but if the guys all can collectively respond and play for one another on both sides, the Knicks could be back in business.

The talk of Durant is cool, but having a pulverizing defense and rebounding team would be what we have been crying for since the 90s. The potential is there.

seraphin could be the guy we have been waiting for to be the center for the next decade. i really hope he pans out. he sounds dedicated to the game and not a party animal (hopefully no JR type characters around to change that).

knicks1248 wrote:

nixluva wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:
THJ is not garbage by any stretch, he's very one dimensional, but he'll get better.

Notice the difference in THJ from his rookie yr (mostly vets around him) and his second yr (team in a flux, lot of young players) where he seem to go backwards.

In order to develop a rookie, he has to be around very solid high level veterans. That's why the spurs rookies develop quicker, they don't have 5 to 6 young guys on their team at once, they grab 1 or 2 quality players late in the draft and go from there. They also seem to have a very high level and experience coaching and training staff.

When you have a bunch of young players playing together(phili, mini, hornets) they're all making the same mistakes, their work ethic isn't as intense, and they seem to develop at a slower pace, and most end up expendable, or out of the league in 3 to 4 yrs.

While playing with young players can have an impact on some young players, we've seen some young guys develop despite who they're playing with. In college all the have is other young players for the most part. I think THJ's problems on D were all his own. His failures weren't because he didn't have enough vets around him to learn. He's still young and has a chance to get better, but I think he was not the right guy for what this team is looking for now. Phil and his staff are clearly looking to bring in more players who play the way he needs them to play in this system and on D.

you put 4 defensive players around one bad defensive player, who's habit will get pick up, certainly the 4 defensive guys are not going to turn into the bad defensive guy.

notice melo's intensity on the defensive end in the 54 win season when we had a lot of defensive minded players, notice melo's willingness to pass in that same season, yet still was a top scorer (im only using melo because it was so evident).

Culture change does change players, they just need more time to buy in

dk7th wrote:The narrative arc for this team should be over two seasons or 184 games. Yes, state your goal as "playoffs" but stick to a developmental philosophy no matter what.

The Knicks start off the season with Lopez, O'Quinn, Melo, Afflalo, and Calderon as the starters.

Our two rookies, Kris and Grant, are the first to come off the bench to replace O'Quinn and Calderon, thus getting playing time with three-fifths of the starting lineup. The timing of the substitution should become earlier and earlier through the first 30 games, with the goal of the rookies eventually becoming starters by the end of the season-- just so long as the playoffs are still a possibility. Either way, the rookies should not be played more than 24 minutes a game by the end of the season.

That accounts for seven players in a system-based offense and a philosophy that stresses defense. A deep and effective bench is crucial, just so the starters are never averaging more than 32 minutes a game-- especially Calderon and Melo, which is why acquiring Grant and Kris was a good move. Therefore, Fisher must identify those three other Knick players who are better than average defenders and who have grasped the Triangle sufficiently.

My vote is Seraphin for Lopez, Galloway for Afflalo, and Williams, although if Williams doesn't cut it, Lance Thomas should be given minutes.

Again-- although it would be a real accomplishment to reach the playoffs this season, the narrative should have a greater arc than just this season, ie the arc should extend over this season and the following season, or 184 games. In that time the team will have an opportunity to gel into something that is viable for several seasons beyond the next two, in which it should be expected that the Knicks are a top 6 team in the league. In order to get there, the Knicks from top to bottom should be preaching patience and stick-to-it-iveness.

It would be a mistake to think "playoffs this season or bust" or "all or nothing." Jackson is trying to nurture a sapling right now. Any free agent worth signing-- and make no mistake it's slim pickings as it is http://www.spotrac.com/nba/free-agents/2016/-- should be able to recognize that the Knicks are developing something and are showing signs of improvement. At any rate, whoever may be available should not be older than 27-28 by the start of the 2016-2017 season.

i am revisiting this post now that we are around 40% of the way through the season. the knicks are pretty bad defensively, and here is a list of defensive real plus minus for the main players, notably:

1) afflalo's defensive real plus/minus is ranked 77th among shooting guards at -2.32. this is just awful, even unacceptable. he is hurting the team in this regard. combined with his selfishness with the ball, and it's like having a shorter version of the "old Melo" out there, and in a prime position in the triangle offense too. overall rpm he is ranked 34th. not starting material on a winner.
2) calderon is ranked 42nd among point guards at -1.53, 27th overall in rpm. a starter on a bottom feeder.
3) galloway is ranked 31st among shooting guards at -.56, 21st overall. he could be a starter on the knicks.
3) carmelo's is ranked 37th among small forwards, at -.16, which is, relatively speaking, a welcome surprise. overall his rpm is 7th, so this season he's a starter on a winner.
4) lance thomas's, ranked 68th among sfs, is a surprisingly bad -1.59, but at least it's better than afflalo. he's ranked 42nd overall this season.
5) derrick williams, ranked 80th among pfs is also negative at -.23, which is not as bad as some might think, but still below average. ranked 47th in rpm among power forwards.

the team may be in need of a shake up. if i were derek fisher, i would consider benching afflalo and calderon and inserting lance thomas at the shooting guard and galloway at the point guard.... in the triangle offense, this is entirely doable. lance is a better playmaker than afflalo and a better defender, and galloway the better defender.

second unit would be a lot stronger with afflalo, calderon, oquinn, williams, and the triangle would not have to be run as much.