dk7th wrote:

holfresh wrote:

dk7th wrote:

holfresh wrote:

dk7th wrote:a contender is being one of the top 6 teams in the league, something that a win-loss record doesn't always reflect accurately.

http://www.ultimateknicks.com/forum/topic.asp?t=52356&page=5

there is no contradiction between the notion of top 6 teams being contenders and reaching the nba's final four as a real achievement.

but since you went there then please explain to the board how it IS a contradiction.

two choices for "u": "my bad" or <holfresh's special brand of talking mess> or <fronting gobbledygook>

Answer the question I posed to you in the other thread..

sure. which thread?

I gave u the link, loser..Don't answer, I know u can't and have been avoiding it..

holfresh wrote:

dk7th wrote:

holfresh wrote:

dk7th wrote:

holfresh wrote:

dk7th wrote:a contender is being one of the top 6 teams in the league, something that a win-loss record doesn't always reflect accurately.

http://www.ultimateknicks.com/forum/topic.asp?t=52356&page=5

there is no contradiction between the notion of top 6 teams being contenders and reaching the nba's final four as a real achievement.

but since you went there then please explain to the board how it IS a contradiction.

two choices for "u": "my bad" or <holfresh's special brand of talking mess> or <fronting gobbledygook>

Answer the question I posed to you in the other thread..

sure. which thread?

I gave u the link, loser..Don't answer, I know u can't and have been avoiding it..

this is what you wrote:

"It doesn't matter what I write, you will keep moving the goal post..Let's give it a shot...You are trying to assess his value on how his team results noit his personal results...He already went to the WCF without playing with another current all star...I'm sure that doesn't count in your book...You will move the goal post even after your just stated "Final Four"...But why should his value be assess to the whims of a GM..For example, Phil decided not to speak to Aldridge, clearly the Knicks would be better with Aldridge than with Lopez, O'Quinn and Dwill...Melo and Adridge with anyone else on the roster is a playoff team...As constructed now, we aren't a playoff team...But you want to actually say that Melo cannot take this scrub team to the ECF, so he is overpaid???"

fallacy #1: "He already went to the WCF without playing with another current all star...I'm sure that doesn't count in your book." wrong again, dog anus breath: you can't slip in "current all-star" and get away with that because chauncey billups was running that team and he is an nba finals mvp. billups knows how to win... melo clearly doesn't.

fallacy #2: "Phil decided not to speak to Aldridge, clearly the Knicks would be better with Aldridge than with Lopez, O'Quinn and Dwill. ...Melo and Adridge with anyone else on the roster is a playoff team." and ypu know this how? never mind-- you don't: here you are pulling a classic "begging the question" tactic, which is a conclusion that repeats the premise instead of proving said premise. homey don't play dat

fallacy #3: "As constructed now, we aren't a playoff team...But you want to actually say that Melo cannot take this scrub team to the ECF, so he is overpaid???" as constructed we aren't a playoff team"... again, and you know this how? i already laid out for you how the knicks can make the playoffs: melo buys in on both ends of the court and adds 8-10 wins to the 29-win baseline, based on the win shares he has achieved during the seasons where he had leaders like billups and kidd running the team-- being the leaders that melo has never been. with kidd/prigioni he had 9.5 win shares (projects to 11.6 on 82 games) and with billups he had 8 in his 69 games (projects to 9.5 win shares over 82 games). now the triangle is a system that removes the orchestrating point guard from the equation, and forces the players to generate plays by 5-man involvement and cooperation-- the exact opposite of the isolation play that losers love to watch and to play but never understand why it always falls short of winning titles.

fallacy #4: "But you want to actually say that Melo cannot take this scrub team to the ECF, so he is overpaid???" no i never said that and you will need to show me where i did. your putting words in my mouth is not a valid way of making a compelling argument.

there. i have answered your question.

now address the post i made.

StarksEwing1 wrote:

dk7th wrote:

holfresh wrote:

dk7th wrote:

holfresh wrote:

dk7th wrote:

holfresh wrote:

dk7th wrote:a contender is being one of the top 6 teams in the league, something that a win-loss record doesn't always reflect accurately.

http://www.ultimateknicks.com/forum/topic.asp?t=52356&page=5

there is no contradiction between the notion of top 6 teams being contenders and reaching the nba's final four as a real achievement.

but since you went there then please explain to the board how it IS a contradiction.

two choices for "u": "my bad" or <holfresh's special brand of talking mess> or <fronting gobbledygook>

Answer the question I posed to you in the other thread..

sure. which thread?

I gave u the link, loser..Don't answer, I know u can't and have been avoiding it..

this is what you wrote:

"It doesn't matter what I write, you will keep moving the goal post..Let's give it a shot...You are trying to assess his value on how his team results noit his personal results...He already went to the WCF without playing with another current all star...I'm sure that doesn't count in your book...You will move the goal post even after your just stated "Final Four"...But why should his value be assess to the whims of a GM..For example, Phil decided not to speak to Aldridge, clearly the Knicks would be better with Aldridge than with Lopez, O'Quinn and Dwill...Melo and Adridge with anyone else on the roster is a playoff team...As constructed now, we aren't a playoff team...But you want to actually say that Melo cannot take this scrub team to the ECF, so he is overpaid???"

fallacy #1: "He already went to the WCF without playing with another current all star...I'm sure that doesn't count in your book." wrong again, dog anus breath: you can't slip in "current all-star" and get away with that because chauncey billups was running that team and he is an nba finals mvp. billups knows how to win... melo clearly doesn't.

fallacy #2: "Phil decided not to speak to Aldridge, clearly the Knicks would be better with Aldridge than with Lopez, O'Quinn and Dwill. ...Melo and Adridge with anyone else on the roster is a playoff team." and ypu know this how? never mind-- you don't: here you are pulling a classic "begging the question" tactic, which is a conclusion that repeats the premise instead of proving said premise. homey don't play dat

fallacy #3: "As constructed now, we aren't a playoff team...But you want to actually say that Melo cannot take this scrub team to the ECF, so he is overpaid???" as constructed we aren't a playoff team"... again, and you know this how? i already laid out for you how the knicks can make the playoffs: melo buys in on both ends of the court and adds 8-10 wins to the 29-win baseline, based on the win shares he has achieved during the seasons where he had leaders like billups and kidd running the team-- being the leaders that melo has never been. with kidd/prigioni he had 9.5 win shares (projects to 11.6 on 82 games) and with billups he had 8 in his 69 games (projects to 9.5 win shares over 82 games). now the triangle is a system that removes the orchestrating point guard from the equation, and forces the players to generate plays by 5-man involvement and cooperation-- the exact opposite of the isolation play that losers love to watch and to play but never understand why it always falls short of winning titles.

fallacy #4: "But you want to actually say that Melo cannot take this scrub team to the ECF, so he is overpaid???" no i never said that and you will need to show me where i did. your putting words in my mouth is not a valid way of making a compelling argument.

there. i have answered your question.

now address the post i made.

awesome post

thank you. funny how virtually everything in his post was fallacious.

holfresh wrote:

dk7th wrote:

holfresh wrote:

dk7th wrote:

holfresh wrote:

dk7th wrote:

holfresh wrote:

dk7th wrote:a contender is being one of the top 6 teams in the league, something that a win-loss record doesn't always reflect accurately.

http://www.ultimateknicks.com/forum/topic.asp?t=52356&page=5

there is no contradiction between the notion of top 6 teams being contenders and reaching the nba's final four as a real achievement.

but since you went there then please explain to the board how it IS a contradiction.

two choices for "u": "my bad" or <holfresh's special brand of talking mess> or <fronting gobbledygook>

Answer the question I posed to you in the other thread..

sure. which thread?

I gave u the link, loser..Don't answer, I know u can't and have been avoiding it..

this is what you wrote:

"It doesn't matter what I write, you will keep moving the goal post..Let's give it a shot...You are trying to assess his value on how his team results noit his personal results...He already went to the WCF without playing with another current all star...I'm sure that doesn't count in your book...You will move the goal post even after your just stated "Final Four"...But why should his value be assess to the whims of a GM..For example, Phil decided not to speak to Aldridge, clearly the Knicks would be better with Aldridge than with Lopez, O'Quinn and Dwill...Melo and Adridge with anyone else on the roster is a playoff team...As constructed now, we aren't a playoff team...But you want to actually say that Melo cannot take this scrub team to the ECF, so he is overpaid???"

fallacy #1: "He already went to the WCF without playing with another current all star...I'm sure that doesn't count in your book." wrong again, dog anus breath: you can't slip in "current all-star" and get away with that because chauncey billups was running that team and he is an nba finals mvp. billups knows how to win... melo clearly doesn't.

fallacy #2: "Phil decided not to speak to Aldridge, clearly the Knicks would be better with Aldridge than with Lopez, O'Quinn and Dwill. ...Melo and Adridge with anyone else on the roster is a playoff team." and ypu know this how? never mind-- you don't: here you are pulling a classic "begging the question" tactic, which is a conclusion that repeats the premise instead of proving said premise. homey don't play dat

fallacy #3: "As constructed now, we aren't a playoff team...But you want to actually say that Melo cannot take this scrub team to the ECF, so he is overpaid???" as constructed we aren't a playoff team"... again, and you know this how? i already laid out for you how the knicks can make the playoffs: melo buys in on both ends of the court and adds 8-10 wins to the 29-win baseline, based on the win shares he has achieved during the seasons where he had leaders like billups and kidd running the team-- being the leaders that melo has never been. with kidd/prigioni he had 9.5 win shares (projects to 11.6 on 82 games) and with billups he had 8 in his 69 games (projects to 9.5 win shares over 82 games). now the triangle is a system that removes the orchestrating point guard from the equation, and forces the players to generate plays by 5-man involvement and cooperation-- the exact opposite of the isolation play that losers love to watch and to play but never understand why it always falls short of winning titles.

fallacy #4: "But you want to actually say that Melo cannot take this scrub team to the ECF, so he is overpaid???" no i never said that and you will need to show me where i did. your putting words in my mouth is not a valid way of making a compelling argument.

there. i have answered your question.

now address the post i made.

so now you wanna hide behind the skirts of samuel l. jackson?!? okayyyy, just call me 44 magnum:

holfresh wrote:

dk7th wrote:

holfresh wrote:

dk7th wrote:

holfresh wrote:

dk7th wrote:

holfresh wrote:

dk7th wrote:a contender is being one of the top 6 teams in the league, something that a win-loss record doesn't always reflect accurately.

http://www.ultimateknicks.com/forum/topic.asp?t=52356&page=5

there is no contradiction between the notion of top 6 teams being contenders and reaching the nba's final four as a real achievement.

but since you went there then please explain to the board how it IS a contradiction.

two choices for "u": "my bad" or <holfresh's special brand of talking mess> or <fronting gobbledygook>

Answer the question I posed to you in the other thread..

sure. which thread?

I gave u the link, loser..Don't answer, I know u can't and have been avoiding it..

this is what you wrote:

"It doesn't matter what I write, you will keep moving the goal post..Let's give it a shot...You are trying to assess his value on how his team results noit his personal results...He already went to the WCF without playing with another current all star...I'm sure that doesn't count in your book...You will move the goal post even after your just stated "Final Four"...But why should his value be assess to the whims of a GM..For example, Phil decided not to speak to Aldridge, clearly the Knicks would be better with Aldridge than with Lopez, O'Quinn and Dwill...Melo and Adridge with anyone else on the roster is a playoff team...As constructed now, we aren't a playoff team...But you want to actually say that Melo cannot take this scrub team to the ECF, so he is overpaid???"

fallacy #1: "He already went to the WCF without playing with another current all star...I'm sure that doesn't count in your book." wrong again, dog anus breath: you can't slip in "current all-star" and get away with that because chauncey billups was running that team and he is an nba finals mvp. billups knows how to win... melo clearly doesn't.

fallacy #2: "Phil decided not to speak to Aldridge, clearly the Knicks would be better with Aldridge than with Lopez, O'Quinn and Dwill. ...Melo and Adridge with anyone else on the roster is a playoff team." and ypu know this how? never mind-- you don't: here you are pulling a classic "begging the question" tactic, which is a conclusion that repeats the premise instead of proving said premise. homey don't play dat

fallacy #3: "As constructed now, we aren't a playoff team...But you want to actually say that Melo cannot take this scrub team to the ECF, so he is overpaid???" as constructed we aren't a playoff team"... again, and you know this how? i already laid out for you how the knicks can make the playoffs: melo buys in on both ends of the court and adds 8-10 wins to the 29-win baseline, based on the win shares he has achieved during the seasons where he had leaders like billups and kidd running the team-- being the leaders that melo has never been. with kidd/prigioni he had 9.5 win shares (projects to 11.6 on 82 games) and with billups he had 8 in his 69 games (projects to 9.5 win shares over 82 games). now the triangle is a system that removes the orchestrating point guard from the equation, and forces the players to generate plays by 5-man involvement and cooperation-- the exact opposite of the isolation play that losers love to watch and to play but never understand why it always falls short of winning titles.

fallacy #4: "But you want to actually say that Melo cannot take this scrub team to the ECF, so he is overpaid???" no i never said that and you will need to show me where i did. your putting words in my mouth is not a valid way of making a compelling argument.

there. i have answered your question.

now address the post i made.

The problem with these discussions are usually getting you to admit to factual events or data..I will press forward..

fallacy #1: "He already went to the WCF without playing with another current all star...I'm sure that doesn't count in your book." wrong again, dog anus breath: you can't slip in "current all-star" and get away with that because chauncey billups was running that team and he is an nba finals mvp. billups knows how to win... melo clearly doesn't.

Do you concede that Melo was the best player on the 2008/09 Denver Nuggets??

your question is utterly devoid of validity, and here's why:

in basketball or any other team sport "best" means virtually nothing. how about asking a valid question instead of an invalid one, like:

"Do you concede that Melo was the most valuable player on the 2008/09 Denver Nuggets??"

the answer to the valid question is "no, chauncey billups was the most valuable player on that nugget team."

dk7th wrote:He was only slightly overpaid that season and was 25 at the time. Sadly he has not improved enough by tightening up his game since then, ergo he is now being grossly overpaid. Can you really be this slow-witted??

fallacy #3: "As constructed now, we aren't a playoff team...But you want to actually say that Melo cannot take this scrub team to the ECF, so he is overpaid???" as constructed we aren't a playoff team"... again, and you know this how? i already laid out for you how the knicks can make the playoffs: melo buys in on both ends of the court and adds 8-10 wins to the 29-win baseline, based on the win shares he has achieved during the seasons where he had leaders like billups and kidd running the team-- being the leaders that melo has never been. with kidd/prigioni he had 9.5 win shares (projects to 11.6 on 82 games) and with billups he had 8 in his 69 games (projects to 9.5 win shares over 82 games). now the triangle is a system that removes the orchestrating point guard from the equation, and forces the players to generate plays by 5-man involvement and cooperation-- the exact opposite of the isolation play that losers love to watch and to play but never understand why it always falls short of winning titles.

1       c-Atlanta Hawks * 	60 	22 	.732 	– 	82
2 	y-Cleveland Cavaliers * 53 	29 	.646 	7.0 	82
3 	x-Chicago Bulls 	50 	32 	.610 	10.0 	82
4 	y-Toronto Raptors * 	49 	33 	.598 	11.0 	82
5 	x-Washington Wizards 	46 	36 	.561 	14.0 	82
6 	x-Milwaukee Bucks 	41 	41 	.500 	19.0 	82
7 	x-Boston Celtics 	40 	42 	.488 	20.0 	82
8 	x-Brooklyn Nets 	38 	44 	.463 	22.0 	82
9 	Indiana Pacers 	        38 	44 	.463 	22.0 	82
10 	Miami Heat 	        37 	45 	.451 	23.0 	82
11 	Charlotte Hornets 	33 	49 	.402 	27.0 	82
12 	Detroit Pistons 	32 	50 	.390 	28.0 	82
13 	Orlando Magic 	        25 	57 	.305 	35.0 	82
14 	Philadelphia 76ers 	18 	64 	.220 	42.0 	82
15 	New York Knicks         17 	65 	.207 	43.0 	82
  

dk7th wrote:

holfresh wrote:

dk7th wrote:He was only slightly overpaid that season and was 25 at the time. Sadly he has not improved enough by tightening up his game since then, ergo he is now being grossly overpaid. Can you really be this slow-witted??

So that's two fallacy claims disproved correct?

only in upsidedownandbackwardsland. you do realize you are only further convincing others of your obtuseness..

Why do I waste my time..U asked me to show u proof of what u said and I did like I always do..U not even man enough to own it..

holfresh wrote:

dk7th wrote:He was only slightly overpaid that season and was 25 at the time. Sadly he has not improved enough by tightening up his game since then, ergo he is now being grossly overpaid. Can you really be this slow-witted??

fallacy #3: "As constructed now, we aren't a playoff team...But you want to actually say that Melo cannot take this scrub team to the ECF, so he is overpaid???" as constructed we aren't a playoff team"... again, and you know this how? i already laid out for you how the knicks can make the playoffs: melo buys in on both ends of the court and adds 8-10 wins to the 29-win baseline, based on the win shares he has achieved during the seasons where he had leaders like billups and kidd running the team-- being the leaders that melo has never been. with kidd/prigioni he had 9.5 win shares (projects to 11.6 on 82 games) and with billups he had 8 in his 69 games (projects to 9.5 win shares over 82 games). now the triangle is a system that removes the orchestrating point guard from the equation, and forces the players to generate plays by 5-man involvement and cooperation-- the exact opposite of the isolation play that losers love to watch and to play but never understand why it always falls short of winning titles.

I'm not quite sure how you arrive at these baseline numbers...Maybe we can look at it another way..Here are the teams in the East..With every team outside of Brooklyn getting better, please tell me who the Knicks will leapfrog and why...

1       c-Atlanta Hawks * 	60 	22 	.732 	– 	82
2 	y-Cleveland Cavaliers * 53 	29 	.646 	7.0 	82
3 	x-Chicago Bulls 	50 	32 	.610 	10.0 	82
4 	y-Toronto Raptors * 	49 	33 	.598 	11.0 	82
5 	x-Washington Wizards 	46 	36 	.561 	14.0 	82
6 	x-Milwaukee Bucks 	41 	41 	.500 	19.0 	82
7 	x-Boston Celtics 	40 	42 	.488 	20.0 	82
8 	x-Brooklyn Nets 	38 	44 	.463 	22.0 	82
9 	Indiana Pacers 	        38 	44 	.463 	22.0 	82
10 	Miami Heat 	        37 	45 	.451 	23.0 	82
11 	Charlotte Hornets 	33 	49 	.402 	27.0 	82
12 	Detroit Pistons 	32 	50 	.390 	28.0 	82
13 	Orlando Magic 	        25 	57 	.305 	35.0 	82
14 	Philadelphia 76ers 	18 	64 	.220 	42.0 	82
15 	New York Knicks         17 	65 	.207 	43.0 	82
  

IMO none of these teams are going to be out of reach of the Knicks, with the exception of possibly the Heat if healthy.

6 	x-Milwaukee Bucks 	41 	41 	.500 	19.0 	82
7 	x-Boston Celtics 	40 	42 	.488 	20.0 	82
8 	x-Brooklyn Nets 	38 	44 	.463 	22.0 	82
9 	Indiana Pacers 	        38 	44 	.463 	22.0 	82
10 	Miami Heat 	        37 	45 	.451 	23.0 	82
11 	Charlotte Hornets 	33 	49 	.402 	27.0 	82
12 	Detroit Pistons 	32 	50 	.390 	28.0 	82
13 	Orlando Magic 	        25 	57 	.305 	35.0 	82
14 	Philadelphia 76ers 	18 	64 	.220 	42.0 	82

EnySpree wrote:Knicks front court will be their strength. Also their back court is full of sharp shooting vets with high Basketball IQ. It's a good mix for what we are trying to do.

I don't think enough is said about these facts. The real test will be how well the guys gel. Training camp is going to be huge. I absolutely can't wait.

I have some degree of comfort with how fast this group can come together. I think it helps that they have added smart players. Also Melo, Jose, Gallo, Early in particular are coming in with some feel for the system already and for practice LT and LA are gonna be helpful for instruction. Jerian Looked VERY comfortable in running the system this summer.

I think Fish tweaked the system just enough to make it a bit easier for the new players. Adding the Drag Screens last year really does help to keep things from being stagnant and predictable. It allows for more PG activity along with PnR bigs, which should be great for RoLo. So the beginning of the offense is pretty standard NBA stuff before they settle into the Triangle if there's no scoring opportunity early in the clock.