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nixluva
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8/21/2015  9:09 PM
The kid had surgery during the season. It slowed his development. He clearly has talent and needs a chance to show it this year. If he stays healthy I like his chances. I'm so tired of the automatic hate on our own prospect after very little actual time in the league. Once he got his legs he looked much better. I like his potential for growth this year.
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blkexec
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8/21/2015  11:38 PM
nixluva wrote:The kid had surgery during the season. It slowed his development. He clearly has talent and needs a chance to show it this year. If he stays healthy I like his chances. I'm so tired of the automatic hate on our own prospect after very little actual time in the league. Once he got his legs he looked much better. I like his potential for growth this year.

SL hasnt showed me any improvements....

Born in Brooklyn, Raised in Queens, Lives in Maryland. The future is bright, I'm a Knicks fan for life!
dk7th
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8/22/2015  1:13 AM
blkexec wrote:
nixluva wrote:The kid had surgery during the season. It slowed his development. He clearly has talent and needs a chance to show it this year. If he stays healthy I like his chances. I'm so tired of the automatic hate on our own prospect after very little actual time in the league. Once he got his legs he looked much better. I like his potential for growth this year.

SL hasnt showed me any improvements....

what is your assessment of lance thomas?

knicks win 38-43 games in 16-17. rose MUST shoot no more than 14 shots per game, defer to kp6 + melo, and have a usage rate of less than 25%
nixluva
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8/22/2015  1:24 AM
blkexec wrote:
nixluva wrote:The kid had surgery during the season. It slowed his development. He clearly has talent and needs a chance to show it this year. If he stays healthy I like his chances. I'm so tired of the automatic hate on our own prospect after very little actual time in the league. Once he got his legs he looked much better. I like his potential for growth this year.

SL hasnt showed me any improvements....


I wouldn't rest my judgement solely on how he looked in SL. It's a continuing process. Not every player is gonna be able to display dramatic improvement in just a few months of offseason work and 5 SL games? But you already know this. I saw a more confident player who wasn't hesitating. He was active and actually moved the ball this summer. That was some good progress IMO. I like to give my rookies more than 1 surgery interrupted season, before I kick the dirt on their career. We'll see how he does this year in only his 2ND season.

My point about fans being impatient is summed up in your post. Tell me when do you think Early should've been able to fix all of his flaws? Season ended April 15th, so what do you think, maybe by May 15th or June 15th was enough time for Early to fix his handle and passing etc. The 1st SL practice was July 9th. How about we give him the entire summer and some of the coming season to make enough improvement to satisfy the fans? It takes some players years to fix flaws in their skills. I'm hoping he can at least make enough progress to make him a better fit in the rotation.

dk7th
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8/22/2015  1:44 AM
nixluva wrote:
blkexec wrote:
nixluva wrote:The kid had surgery during the season. It slowed his development. He clearly has talent and needs a chance to show it this year. If he stays healthy I like his chances. I'm so tired of the automatic hate on our own prospect after very little actual time in the league. Once he got his legs he looked much better. I like his potential for growth this year.

SL hasnt showed me any improvements....


I wouldn't rest my judgement solely on how he looked in SL. It's a continuing process. Not every player is gonna be able to display dramatic improvement in just a few months of offseason work and 5 SL games? But you already know this. I saw a more confident player who wasn't hesitating. He was active and actually moved the ball this summer. That was some good progress IMO. I like to give my rookies more than 1 surgery interrupted season, before I kick the dirt on their career. We'll see how he does this year in only his 2ND season.

My point about fans being impatient is summed up in your post. Tell me when do you think Early should've been able to fix all of his flaws? Season ended April 15th, so what do you think, maybe by May 15th or June 15th was enough time for Early to fix his handle and passing etc. The 1st SL practice was July 9th. How about we give him the entire summer and some of the coming season to make enough improvement to satisfy the fans? It takes some players years to fix flaws in their skills. I'm hoping he can at least make enough progress to make him a better fit in the rotation.

the fixing of flaws is very arduous and he has so many to work on..

knicks win 38-43 games in 16-17. rose MUST shoot no more than 14 shots per game, defer to kp6 + melo, and have a usage rate of less than 25%
shinmen
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8/22/2015  2:37 AM
I don't understand some of you. Anybody and everybody is saying we need to groom our youngs but when we draft someone and he doesn't necessarily reach stardom during their rookie season, he's a bum. Early was regarded a steal last year, there must be some reason. Plus, he was injured last season.
He doesn't cost much. The team drafted him, let's stick with him at least 3 full seasons. Maybe he won't pan out but it's a low risk investment.
Our current strategy is to ship our youngs to other teams once their growing pains are almost over. The other teams reap the benefit.

We need continuity and give our youngs time to improve. GS did it, SA does it.
Go look at Draymond Green stats on his rookie year (I'm not saying he will reach Green's level), he was not a stud. We won't win anything next season anyway.

TripleThreat
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8/22/2015  7:40 AM
shinmen wrote:I don't understand some of you. Anybody and everybody is saying we need to groom our youngs but when we draft someone and he doesn't necessarily reach stardom during their rookie season, he's a bum. Early was regarded a steal last year, there must be some reason. Plus, he was injured last season.
He doesn't cost much.


He's not clearly in the rotation. There is no practical path to playing time other than multiple injuries in the front court, the one place where the Knicks have more players than minutes available. When he does play, it's painfully clear he is not suited for the Triangle Offense and, moreso, he has not established any kind of "trust" with his play with Derek Fisher.

He does have a nice young talent base. However there are two "taxes" at work here.

There's a Melo "tax" which dictates the team should choose empty wins to treadmill than a true full on rebuild. In a true full on rebuild, the team doesn't sign a Derrick Williams. On the flip side, if Early wanted the job, he should have simply earned it by dominating the D League when he did play there and shown more in limited minutes. Some will say, that's not fair. Well some UDFA corner for the Jets might only get 10 snaps to show what he can do before getting cut. I'm sure someone will say that's not fair either. It's not about fair. If you have higher draft pedigree, you will get more opportunity in your career to show you can be something compared to lower drafted and undrafted counterparts. Not conjecture, not opinion, but pure hard lockdown fact across all modern professional sports.

Then there's the Phil Jackson Triangle "tax" where the kid is forced to not just assimilate to the NBA, but to a complex offense and have massive and key responsibilities to run said offense at times based purely on positional value. Hence why I keep saying over and over - THERE IS A REASON NO OTHER TEAM IS USING THE TRIANGLE OFFENSE IN THE NBA RIGHT NOW. When the offense plays to Lou Amundson traits and experience but not to Clem Early's, then you start to see there is a massive "disconnect" between the idea of the Triangle and a practical team rebuild.

Early simply doesn't have, by draft pedigree, enough practical team controllable years to keep hoping he will "show up". When you are cheap to get, great if you break out, but if you are cheap to get, then you are also cheap to let go if it doesn't work out for the team. WORKS BOTH WAYS.

I doubt anyone here has a "glitch" against Early personally or Knicks rookies in general. This isn't about absurd expectations. The kid CANNOT function in the Triangle Offense and has no practical path to minutes. That's not a failure to be "optimistic", it's simply the kid CANNOT FUNCTION in the Triangle Offense and has NO PRACTICAL PATH TO MINUTES.

You CANNOT DEVELOP A YOUNG PLAYER UNLESS HE GETS ACTUAL ROTATIONAL PLAYING TIME. HE ISN'T GOING TO PLAY IF HE DOESN'T EVEN UNDERSTAND THE BASIC OFFENSE AND BASIC SETS OF THE TRIANGLE OFFENSE AND WOULD NEED MULTIPLE INJURIES AS A PATH TO EVEN BACK END ROTATION MINUTES.

NO UNDERSTAND OFFENSE = NO MINUTES

NO MINUTES = NO DEVELOPMENT


" Tell me when do you think Early should've been able to fix all of his flaws?"


NO UNDERSTAND OFFENSE = NO MINUTES

NO MINUTES = NO DEVELOPMENT

Nixluva, you were at the forefront to blindly defend Phil Jackson ( well for pretty much everything) when he signed Lou Amundson and Lance Thomas and Kevin Seraphin and Derrick Williams. Did you think signing those players had no ripple effect on Clem Early's chance to get minutes and playing time and a chance to develop? What do you think people were saying in all those posts when you kept ignoring their points? You can't ignore it now.

DO NOT BLAME CLEM EARLY'S LACK OF MORE OPPORTUNITIES ON UK MEMBERS YOU CALL "IMPATIENT"

Your beloved Phil Jackson did so when he kept signing fringe front court player after player.

Please do not go running like a snitch again saying I'm here bullying you. You want to defend every Phil Jackson move like he carries the Hand Of God? Fine, do it. Your prerogative. But every move Phil makes comes with some consequence. A reality of the job. None of us squeezed Early out, Phil did. It's not optimism to ignore the basic concept of "tradeoffs"

Rosey
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8/22/2015  8:25 AM
Early is athletic but I still don't know what he is at this level. He played more inside in college. Ariza is much better and showed much more in his first year. Early should be featured on the D-League squad to get more seasoning.
dk7th
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8/22/2015  10:22 AM
shinmen wrote:I don't understand some of you. Anybody and everybody is saying we need to groom our youngs but when we draft someone and he doesn't necessarily reach stardom during their rookie season, he's a bum. Early was regarded a steal last year, there must be some reason. Plus, he was injured last season.
He doesn't cost much. The team drafted him, let's stick with him at least 3 full seasons. Maybe he won't pan out but it's a low risk investment.
Our current strategy is to ship our youngs to other teams once their growing pains are almost over. The other teams reap the benefit.

We need continuity and give our youngs time to improve. GS did it, SA does it.
Go look at Draymond Green stats on his rookie year (I'm not saying he will reach Green's level), he was not a stud. We won't win anything next season anyway.

we are talking about the 34th pick in the 2014 draft? THAT cleanthony early? how much time do the knicks need to invest in the 34th pick? other 34th picks:

anthony brown rookie tweener
isaiah canaan 6-foot pg TRADED from playoff team houston to d-league philly
jae crowder TRADED from playoff team dallas to rebuilding boston
shelvin mack is a tweener TRADED from washington to philadelphia to atlanta
armon johnson TRADED from portland to brooklyn

knicks win 38-43 games in 16-17. rose MUST shoot no more than 14 shots per game, defer to kp6 + melo, and have a usage rate of less than 25%
nixluva
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8/22/2015  12:38 PM
In the NBA Early has to be a SF. His role in College didn't prepare him for that. He lacked the ball handling to really effectively drive the ball and he's been working on that. IMO he has made some progress in that area and if he can make progress as a defender he should be able to find a role off the bench. Nothing is guaranteed in this league. It's unfortunate that he had to have surgery last season. I think the kid gets a lot of flack but hopefully he can make the needed progress this year.

TT I have no idea why you think it's somehow an issue that Phil signed other forwards to the team. I'm sure he'd love for Early to finally play up to his full potential because he has more talent than some of the other guys mentioned and he's a SF. It's going to be up to Early to grab the opportunity. No one has locked down a role yet behind Melo. I don't appreciate the notion that i'm defending Phil like he's the hand of God. That's your interpretation and it's wrong. When people make inane comments I respond and because of that it makes it seem like I never have any issues with anything. That's never been the case. It's just the nature of the way I respond to negative posts that I don't believe have much validity. You know like most of the BS you post.

dk7th
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8/22/2015  1:16 PM
nixluva wrote:In the NBA Early has to be a SF. His role in College didn't prepare him for that. He lacked the ball handling to really effectively drive the ball and he's been working on that. IMO he has made some progress in that area and if he can make progress as a defender he should be able to find a role off the bench. Nothing is guaranteed in this league. It's unfortunate that he had to have surgery last season. I think the kid gets a lot of flack but hopefully he can make the needed progress this year.

TT I have no idea why you think it's somehow an issue that Phil signed other forwards to the team. I'm sure he'd love for Early to finally play up to his full potential because he has more talent than some of the other guys mentioned and he's a SF. It's going to be up to Early to grab the opportunity. No one has locked down a role yet behind Melo. I don't appreciate the notion that i'm defending Phil like he's the hand of God. That's your interpretation and it's wrong. When people make inane comments I respond and because of that it makes it seem like I never have any issues with anything. That's never been the case. It's just the nature of the way I respond to negative posts that I don't believe have much validity. You know like most of the BS you post.

given the career paths of other 34th draft picks, i would not get too attached to cleanthiny early

knicks win 38-43 games in 16-17. rose MUST shoot no more than 14 shots per game, defer to kp6 + melo, and have a usage rate of less than 25%
CrushAlot
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8/22/2015  2:33 PM
dk7th wrote:
shinmen wrote:I don't understand some of you. Anybody and everybody is saying we need to groom our youngs but when we draft someone and he doesn't necessarily reach stardom during their rookie season, he's a bum. Early was regarded a steal last year, there must be some reason. Plus, he was injured last season.
He doesn't cost much. The team drafted him, let's stick with him at least 3 full seasons. Maybe he won't pan out but it's a low risk investment.
Our current strategy is to ship our youngs to other teams once their growing pains are almost over. The other teams reap the benefit.

We need continuity and give our youngs time to improve. GS did it, SA does it.
Go look at Draymond Green stats on his rookie year (I'm not saying he will reach Green's level), he was not a stud. We won't win anything next season anyway.

we are talking about the 34th pick in the 2014 draft? THAT cleanthony early? how much time do the knicks need to invest in the 34th pick? other 34th picks:

anthony brown rookie tweener
isaiah canaan 6-foot pg TRADED from playoff team houston to d-league philly
jae crowder TRADED from playoff team dallas to rebuilding boston
shelvin mack is a tweener TRADED from washington to philadelphia to atlanta
armon johnson TRADED from portland to brooklyn

Crowder was awesome for the Celtics last year. Heart and soul type player.
I'm tired,I'm tired, I'm so tired right now......Kristaps Porzingis 1/3/18
nixluva
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8/22/2015  4:21 PM
CrushAlot wrote:
dk7th wrote:
shinmen wrote:I don't understand some of you. Anybody and everybody is saying we need to groom our youngs but when we draft someone and he doesn't necessarily reach stardom during their rookie season, he's a bum. Early was regarded a steal last year, there must be some reason. Plus, he was injured last season.
He doesn't cost much. The team drafted him, let's stick with him at least 3 full seasons. Maybe he won't pan out but it's a low risk investment.
Our current strategy is to ship our youngs to other teams once their growing pains are almost over. The other teams reap the benefit.

We need continuity and give our youngs time to improve. GS did it, SA does it.
Go look at Draymond Green stats on his rookie year (I'm not saying he will reach Green's level), he was not a stud. We won't win anything next season anyway.

we are talking about the 34th pick in the 2014 draft? THAT cleanthony early? how much time do the knicks need to invest in the 34th pick? other 34th picks:

anthony brown rookie tweener
isaiah canaan 6-foot pg TRADED from playoff team houston to d-league philly
jae crowder TRADED from playoff team dallas to rebuilding boston
shelvin mack is a tweener TRADED from washington to philadelphia to atlanta
armon johnson TRADED from portland to brooklyn

Crowder was awesome for the Celtics last year. Heart and soul type player.

I agree. One thing that people need to learn from Crowder and DeMarre Carroll is that sometimes you need to be patient. Especially when young players aren't even costing you anything. We need to let Early find his game this year and see how he develops. There are never any guarantees with prospects. If he works out it's great for us and right now there's really on reason to be panicking over a kid who really didn't have the best of circumstances last year.

I feel pretty confident that we never really saw the best of the kid yet. There were flashes late last year where he looked more like the player we thought we drafted. To me he looked far more confident in SL, which is the 1st step IMO. He has to play with more aggression and energy, like he did in college.

TPercy
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8/22/2015  10:11 PM
nixluva wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:
dk7th wrote:
shinmen wrote:I don't understand some of you. Anybody and everybody is saying we need to groom our youngs but when we draft someone and he doesn't necessarily reach stardom during their rookie season, he's a bum. Early was regarded a steal last year, there must be some reason. Plus, he was injured last season.
He doesn't cost much. The team drafted him, let's stick with him at least 3 full seasons. Maybe he won't pan out but it's a low risk investment.
Our current strategy is to ship our youngs to other teams once their growing pains are almost over. The other teams reap the benefit.

We need continuity and give our youngs time to improve. GS did it, SA does it.
Go look at Draymond Green stats on his rookie year (I'm not saying he will reach Green's level), he was not a stud. We won't win anything next season anyway.

we are talking about the 34th pick in the 2014 draft? THAT cleanthony early? how much time do the knicks need to invest in the 34th pick? other 34th picks:

anthony brown rookie tweener
isaiah canaan 6-foot pg TRADED from playoff team houston to d-league philly
jae crowder TRADED from playoff team dallas to rebuilding boston
shelvin mack is a tweener TRADED from washington to philadelphia to atlanta
armon johnson TRADED from portland to brooklyn

Crowder was awesome for the Celtics last year. Heart and soul type player.

I agree. One thing that people need to learn from Crowder and DeMarre Carroll is that sometimes you need to be patient. Especially when young players aren't even costing you anything. We need to let Early find his game this year and see how he develops. There are never any guarantees with prospects. If he works out it's great for us and right now there's really on reason to be panicking over a kid who really didn't have the best of circumstances last year.

I feel pretty confident that we never really saw the best of the kid yet. There were flashes late last year where he looked more like the player we thought we drafted. To me he looked far more confident in SL, which is the 1st step IMO. He has to play with more aggression and energy, like he did in college.


We do, but the problem is that Early is going to be Melo's back up player for some time, so he is going to deal with the pressure of being able to produce enough coming off the bench. That is why I thought it may have been better if we got an decent back up SF that way Early's development wouldn't be that much of a risk..
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CrushAlot
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8/22/2015  11:15 PM
Does Early get moved to get Crawford and Wilcox with Jose? It works on trade checker.
I'm tired,I'm tired, I'm so tired right now......Kristaps Porzingis 1/3/18
TripleThreat
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8/23/2015  4:45 AM
nixluva wrote:.... One thing that people need to learn from Crowder and DeMarre Carroll is that sometimes you need to be patient. Especially when young players aren't even costing you anything. We need to let Early find his game this year and see how he develops. ....


DeMarre Carroll was a FIRST ROUND DRAFT PICK from two CBA's ago. That means he was rock solid guaranteed the first two years of his rookie deal, then his drafting team had the option for two successive team option years. Carroll's controllable years situation was and is far different from Early's.

Carroll did find success, ON HIS FIFTH NBA TEAM.

Crowder showed massive promise right out of the gate, dominating in his Summer League play. As a rookie, he was already a plus wing defender on the court and he got some burn that season because of two injuries in front of him.

Neither situation remotely approximates Clem Early. If Early was a lock down young athletic versatile defender, the Knicks would find time for him on the court and could let other parts of his game grow. But he's not. If Early was crushing his peers in open competition like Crowder, then maybe he'd be in the true running for even rotational duty, which he is not.

You talk about these players nixluva, without any of the actual context as to why they got the opportunities they did in the league.

You keep talking about Early developing yet you have no practical discussion of HOW HE IS GOING TO GET ANY MINUTES.

You seem to refuse to discuss the basic issue that HE HAS NO IDEA WHAT HE IS DOING MOST OF THE TIME IN THE TRIANGLE OFFENSE. While most players have a gradual learning curve to it, he looks no better off now than he did last year.

You keep talking about "patience" without ANY CONTEXT. Then you've got the balls to call the discussion of it "BS"

Phil Jackson did not pay Derrick Williams 5 million a year to not play.
Phil Jackson did not pay Kevin Seraphin 2.8 million this year to not play.
Phil Jackson resigned two fringe roster guys, Lance Thomas and Lou Amundson, who were in the back end of the rotation last year, do you think those guys magically will not cut into minutes that could be used on Early?


"It's just the nature of the way I respond to negative posts that I don't believe have much validity. You know like most of the BS you post. "

Clem Early has NO PRACTICAL PATH TO MINUTES.
Clem Early shows no real development or practical understanding of the base TRIANGLE OFFENSE
Clem Early has been squeezed out of the rotation so far by Phil Jackson signing FRINGE 5th TIER FREE AGENT AFTER FREE AGENT
Clem Early does not have the luxury of the guaranteed money and cost controllable years or baseline developmental opportunity of a FIRST ROUND PICK.
Clem Early, unlike Crowder, has no definable single skill set to get him onto the floor ( like plus defense) to allow other aspects of his game to develop more slowly over time
Clem Early has never dominated his peer competition to the point where he FORCED his way into the rotation

Go on, go on and keep running and begging for help like a snitch because you can't seem to understand that your only response to what you don't know is to tell people that they are negative and don't get it.

yellowboy90
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8/23/2015  4:56 AM
CrushAlot wrote:Does Early get moved to get Crawford and Wilcox with Jose? It works on trade checker.

No, because the knicks would need a pg. If they wanted to unload Jose why not do it during the FA period?

TPercy
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8/24/2015  7:37 PM
TripleThreat wrote:
nixluva wrote:.... One thing that people need to learn from Crowder and DeMarre Carroll is that sometimes you need to be patient. Especially when young players aren't even costing you anything. We need to let Early find his game this year and see how he develops. ....


DeMarre Carroll was a FIRST ROUND DRAFT PICK from two CBA's ago. That means he was rock solid guaranteed the first two years of his rookie deal, then his drafting team had the option for two successive team option years. Carroll's controllable years situation was and is far different from Early's.

Carroll did find success, ON HIS FIFTH NBA TEAM.

Crowder showed massive promise right out of the gate, dominating in his Summer League play. As a rookie, he was already a plus wing defender on the court and he got some burn that season because of two injuries in front of him.

Neither situation remotely approximates Clem Early. If Early was a lock down young athletic versatile defender, the Knicks would find time for him on the court and could let other parts of his game grow. But he's not. If Early was crushing his peers in open competition like Crowder, then maybe he'd be in the true running for even rotational duty, which he is not.

You talk about these players nixluva, without any of the actual context as to why they got the opportunities they did in the league.

You keep talking about Early developing yet you have no practical discussion of HOW HE IS GOING TO GET ANY MINUTES.

You seem to refuse to discuss the basic issue that HE HAS NO IDEA WHAT HE IS DOING MOST OF THE TIME IN THE TRIANGLE OFFENSE. While most players have a gradual learning curve to it, he looks no better off now than he did last year.

You keep talking about "patience" without ANY CONTEXT. Then you've got the balls to call the discussion of it "BS"

Phil Jackson did not pay Derrick Williams 5 million a year to not play.
Phil Jackson did not pay Kevin Seraphin 2.8 million this year to not play.
Phil Jackson resigned two fringe roster guys, Lance Thomas and Lou Amundson, who were in the back end of the rotation last year, do you think those guys magically will not cut into minutes that could be used on Early?


"It's just the nature of the way I respond to negative posts that I don't believe have much validity. You know like most of the BS you post. "

Clem Early has NO PRACTICAL PATH TO MINUTES.
Clem Early shows no real development or practical understanding of the base TRIANGLE OFFENSE
Clem Early has been squeezed out of the rotation so far by Phil Jackson signing FRINGE 5th TIER FREE AGENT AFTER FREE AGENT
Clem Early does not have the luxury of the guaranteed money and cost controllable years or baseline developmental opportunity of a FIRST ROUND PICK.
Clem Early, unlike Crowder, has no definable single skill set to get him onto the floor ( like plus defense) to allow other aspects of his game to develop more slowly over time
Clem Early has never dominated his peer competition to the point where he FORCED his way into the rotation

Go on, go on and keep running and begging for help like a snitch because you can't seem to understand that your only response to what you don't know is to tell people that they are negative and don't get it.

Would Early not play behind Carmelo?

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