ChuckBuck wrote:As effective as the 2 point guard system was for that particular year, I'm hoping we never...ever....see that shyt again.

Let's play with a more traditional size guard and shooting guards, and not have to worry which opposing guard will have their career day against us.

Also, Melo 3rd in MVP voting that 54 win season aside, let's not have him play Power Forward this season. You risk losing him to injury to the David Wests, Garnetts, Blakes, Aldridges, and the rest of power forwards much bigger and stronger than Melo banging his body to kingdom come.

I think Phil has no intention of playing Melo defensively against PF's. He's really loaded the team with legit PF's who are built to bang. This roster has some similarities with the 54 win team in regards to capable PF's.

The big difference between the 2015-16 team and the 54 win team is that they played more of a 4 out style and we now play the Triangle which is a motion offense. At it's best the 54 win team's offense was a more potent offense but it's hard to really depend on the 3pt shooting. The Triangle is not as dynamic but you can rely on it more from regular season to post season.

I believe that Phil is going to do everything he can to help this team become a legit defensive team. That was his calling card coming into coaching. He's already talked about wanting the team to be more aggressive defensively and attack the opposing PG more. He's added more Rim Protection to the roster as well. If this team can really defend at a high enough level that could be the key to a very successful season. They have some defensive talent to get it done.

The main thing about this current roster is that even though we are bnking on a lot of potential instead of proven commodities. We have flexibility to compound on what we have moving forward.

nixluva wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:As effective as the 2 point guard system was for that particular year, I'm hoping we never...ever....see that shyt again.

Let's play with a more traditional size guard and shooting guards, and not have to worry which opposing guard will have their career day against us.

Also, Melo 3rd in MVP voting that 54 win season aside, let's not have him play Power Forward this season. You risk losing him to injury to the David Wests, Garnetts, Blakes, Aldridges, and the rest of power forwards much bigger and stronger than Melo banging his body to kingdom come.

Phil likes his SG to have PG type skills. There is no pure PG in the Triangle. You really want as many capable passers at every position as you can get. The 2 PG style is actually very smart. Teams can't take away 2 PG's or passers. So it's not so much playing 2 real PG's but having capable passers/playmakers at more than the PG position.

I think Phil has no intention of playing Melo defensively against PF's. He's really loaded the team with legit PF's who are built to bang. This roster has some similarities with the 54 win team in regards to capable PF's.

The big difference between the 2015-16 team and the 54 win team is that they played more of a 4 out style and we now play the Triangle which is a motion offense. At it's best the 54 win team's offense was a more potent offense but it's hard to really depend on the 3pt shooting. The Triangle is not as dynamic but you can rely on it more from regular season to post season.

I believe that Phil is going to do everything he can to help this team become a legit defensive team. That was his calling card coming into coaching. He's already talked about wanting the team to be more aggressive defensively and attack the opposing PG more. He's added more Rim Protection to the roster as well. If this team can really defend at a high enough level that could be the key to a very successful season. They have some defensive talent to get it done.

I didn't mind having 2 points on offense that year...it's when you got absolutely smoked on the defensive end that was killer.

The corpses of Kidd and Prigioni couldn't stand in front of anyone, and Felton didn't fare much better. Lance Stephenson torched the entire Knicks backcourt in the last Knicks playoff game. It didn't matter who they put in front of him.

I don't care about the pure PG or traditional PG...just make sure both guard positions can defend reasonably. Sorry Jose.

holfresh wrote:

dk7th wrote:

holfresh wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

dk7th wrote:when you have a playmaker and orchestrator like kidd on the floor it helps a ton. woodson's mistake was not recognizing prigioni's prowess as a playmaker and orchestrator early on to help keep kidd fresh. that's one of things that makes woodson suck as a head coach.

anyway guess what, the triangle is the paradigm or blueprint such that the orchestrating happens among all five players instead of being dependent on one player.

the issue is whether this year the knicks will establish themselves as a top-ten defensive team. that's the only way they have a chance of reaching 38 wins or more.

100% agree, i dont think they will avg a 100 ppg, plus all of phils teams were top 10 defensively.

Kidd was no longer a playmaker like that though. He was a shooting guard. He no longer was able to penitrate at the level he used to and he was no longer able to keep up with quicker guards like he used to. His size and strength allowed him to be a good SG though. His IQ on offense and defense did allow him to make defensive plays and make that extra pass and heady plays.

Kidd's value was making the extra pass...I think that helped the team tremendously...The biggest asset for that team was Felton being able to get into the lane...That defined the offense...

get into the lane and do what? throw up a brick? make a desperation pass after leaving his feet leading to a difficult catch and shoot?

I'm not sure if u just like being an antagonist or you are just so clueless when it comes to the game..

Why does he keep getting traded

holfresh wrote:

dk7th wrote:

holfresh wrote:

dk7th wrote:

holfresh wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

dk7th wrote:when you have a playmaker and orchestrator like kidd on the floor it helps a ton. woodson's mistake was not recognizing prigioni's prowess as a playmaker and orchestrator early on to help keep kidd fresh. that's one of things that makes woodson suck as a head coach.

anyway guess what, the triangle is the paradigm or blueprint such that the orchestrating happens among all five players instead of being dependent on one player.

the issue is whether this year the knicks will establish themselves as a top-ten defensive team. that's the only way they have a chance of reaching 38 wins or more.

100% agree, i dont think they will avg a 100 ppg, plus all of phils teams were top 10 defensively.

Kidd was no longer a playmaker like that though. He was a shooting guard. He no longer was able to penitrate at the level he used to and he was no longer able to keep up with quicker guards like he used to. His size and strength allowed him to be a good SG though. His IQ on offense and defense did allow him to make defensive plays and make that extra pass and heady plays.

Kidd's value was making the extra pass...I think that helped the team tremendously...The biggest asset for that team was Felton being able to get into the lane...That defined the offense...

get into the lane and do what? throw up a brick? make a desperation pass after leaving his feet leading to a difficult catch and shoot?

I'm not sure if u just like being an antagonist or you are just so clueless when it comes to the game..

Why does he keep getting traded

Your question has nothing to do with the 54 win team..Woodson ran a pick and roll/ISO offense...Felton was key to that offense, he got in the lane and opened up the offense..Kidd commented that Felton was the engine of the team..He was MVP of the Boston series...

Account for the collapse the following season

codeunknown wrote:The starting unit of Calderon, Afflalo, Melo, O Quinn/Porzingis and Lopez is defensively average. They are a good to great shooting team and decent passing team that can operate reasonably within the triangle. The bench of Grant, Galloway, Porzingis and Seraphin is thin on experience but crucial for future development.

If the team wins, it wins on shooting and the shooting comes from the triangle and stretch 4 options, because our dribble penetration and post options are limited. Grant is the X factor that keeps the bench afloat, and with it the win percentage. I like ~ 45 wins without a significant injury.

dk7th wrote:

holfresh wrote:

dk7th wrote:

holfresh wrote:

dk7th wrote:

holfresh wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

dk7th wrote:when you have a playmaker and orchestrator like kidd on the floor it helps a ton. woodson's mistake was not recognizing prigioni's prowess as a playmaker and orchestrator early on to help keep kidd fresh. that's one of things that makes woodson suck as a head coach.

anyway guess what, the triangle is the paradigm or blueprint such that the orchestrating happens among all five players instead of being dependent on one player.

the issue is whether this year the knicks will establish themselves as a top-ten defensive team. that's the only way they have a chance of reaching 38 wins or more.

100% agree, i dont think they will avg a 100 ppg, plus all of phils teams were top 10 defensively.

Kidd was no longer a playmaker like that though. He was a shooting guard. He no longer was able to penitrate at the level he used to and he was no longer able to keep up with quicker guards like he used to. His size and strength allowed him to be a good SG though. His IQ on offense and defense did allow him to make defensive plays and make that extra pass and heady plays.

Kidd's value was making the extra pass...I think that helped the team tremendously...The biggest asset for that team was Felton being able to get into the lane...That defined the offense...

get into the lane and do what? throw up a brick? make a desperation pass after leaving his feet leading to a difficult catch and shoot?

I'm not sure if u just like being an antagonist or you are just so clueless when it comes to the game..

Why does he keep getting traded

Your question has nothing to do with the 54 win team..Woodson ran a pick and roll/ISO offense...Felton was key to that offense, he got in the lane and opened up the offense..Kidd commented that Felton was the engine of the team..He was MVP of the Boston series...

Account for the collapse the following season

The 54 win team owed 100% of its offense to what D'Antoni instilled in them the year before.
Unfortunately for D'Antoni he was a horrific defensive coach and always relied on outscoring opponents as opposed to stopping them.

When Woodson took over his entire focus was on defense and let everything that D'Antoni had going ride. He did not change anything about that offense.
Woodson was actually a half-decent defensive coach that excelled when his primary weakness was covered up.
Woodson was not that smart and could not adapt offensively to what other coaches did defensively.
Only thing left for him to do was resort to ISO Melo because it required zero thought.
A lot of people burn Melo for all those ISO plays, but it was Woodson that was calling them.

By the time playoffs rolled around we were hit hard with injuries, but the team had already spent over a year without any real offensive coaching and they fell apart.

I said Woodson ran DAntoni's offense.. but when other teams adjusted... Woodson would resort to ISO Melo in order to score because he could not come up with anything more creative.

nyvector16 wrote:The 54 wins were mostly due to 1 person... that no one on this thread has mentioned. Mike D'Antoni.

The 54 win team owed 100% of its offense to what D'Antoni instilled in them the year before.
Unfortunately for D'Antoni he was a horrific defensive coach and always relied on outscoring opponents as opposed to stopping them.

When Woodson took over his entire focus was on defense and let everything that D'Antoni had going ride. He did not change anything about that offense.
Woodson was actually a half-decent defensive coach that excelled when his primary weakness was covered up.
Woodson was not that smart and could not adapt offensively to what other coaches did defensively.
Only thing left for him to do was resort to ISO Melo because it required zero thought.
A lot of people burn Melo for all those ISO plays, but it was Woodson that was calling them.

By the time playoffs rolled around we were hit hard with injuries, but the team had already spent over a year without any real offensive coaching and they fell apart.

that team didn't remind me of ssol at all. looked to me like it was pretty much jason kidd doing his thing, orchestrating as best as he could since felton was incompetent.

nixluva wrote:

holfresh wrote:

nyvector16 wrote:The 54 wins were mostly due to 1 person... that no one on this thread has mentioned. Mike D'Antoni.

The 54 win team owed 100% of its offense to what D'Antoni instilled in them the year before.
Unfortunately for D'Antoni he was a horrific defensive coach and always relied on outscoring opponents as opposed to stopping them.

When Woodson took over his entire focus was on defense and let everything that D'Antoni had going ride. He did not change anything about that offense.
Woodson was actually a half-decent defensive coach that excelled when his primary weakness was covered up.
Woodson was not that smart and could not adapt offensively to what other coaches did defensively.
Only thing left for him to do was resort to ISO Melo because it required zero thought.
A lot of people burn Melo for all those ISO plays, but it was Woodson that was calling them.

By the time playoffs rolled around we were hit hard with injuries, but the team had already spent over a year without any real offensive coaching and they fell apart.

Woodson ran ISO as well as pick and roll..How is ISO MDA's offense?

That offense early in the season of the 54 win team that was largely responsible for the final record was not an ISO heavy offense. That was MDA stuff thru and thru. There's no question what they were doing and how they were playing. Just go look at any full game video and you'll see pretty much MDA's half court 4 out style offense.