TripleThreat wrote:

nixluva wrote:Well you should be very happy to know that the Triangle is a very efficient offense and it's adaptable. Since it's a complete system you can mold it to your talent, add or take away any aspect of it. Phil has been constantly adapting the Triangle to take more advantage of the talents he's had and that process will continue in NY.

Are you really going to compare the current Knicks to the a pair of previous contenders in the Kobe/Shaq Lakers and the Jordan/Pippen/Rodman Bulls? Teams constructed several CBAs ago and literally, in sports timeline, in an entirely different era of play?

Adapt or die. Not that complicated a concept.

Any "system" looks to do pretty much the same things. Look for the open man. Take what the defense gives you. Take the high percentage shot. Keep the ball moving. Limit turnovers. Make your possessions count.

What no one wants to talk about is with no college based feeder system and with no other teams running the Triangle, choking out the talent and experience pipeline, a team would be forced to build through the draft, to gain that "synergy" that comes with players who have played together a very long time, to build that critical rapport and chemistry to run ANY offensive set more efficiently.

The problems here aren't going to change.

1) The current iteration of the Knicks WERE NOT BUILT THROUGH THE DRAFT. Right now it's a collection of free agents and fringe ones at that and a couple of rookies and some defensive sieve holdovers. It takes time for a team to gel together and learn to play together. If the Knicks wanted full usage of the Triangle, given there is no other feeder system, then they'd need to have been drafting and developing players in house, year after year.

2) Teams are jacking up threes at a historic pace in the modern game. A study at the MIT/Nike Sloan Conference produced results that said that even if you had historic level production in an offense that generates long twos, it would still be at a disadvantage to the average modern team jacking up those threes at a historic rate. The game, at some level, still comes down to a finite number of possessions against a shot clock and game clock. If you have the fastest horse in the world and take it onto the freeway, you will get smoked by the 15 year old puttering off brand sedan that limps around the city. If the Triangle gives you a clean look each time down the floor, but it takes your players 8-10 seconds to initiate the Triangle base set and burning valuable shot clock and reduces their ability to score in those critical last 4-5 seconds of the clock, that's not winning the war for the sake of the appearance of winning a single battle.

3) The signature player on the Knicks, Melo, does not move well off the ball. Is not a fundamentally sound player. Does not pass the ball well. Dribbles far too much and too often. Seems to only thrive in pure isolation even if his skill set suggests he should be functional in any offensive set.

The Triangle Offense can help *A* NBA team somewhere and some time.

The Triangle Offense WILL NOT help this current iteration of the modern Knicks and not against the backdrop of the modern game, which is about space and pace and drive and kick.

Do you want to know part of the bigger issue here?

Melo coach killed Mike D'Antoni. Who actually was far ahead of his time in terms of understanding where modern NBA offense would go and why they would go there. To embrace the modern game would be to redeploy many D'Antoni concepts, which opens up the question, if that's the case, why the hell did the Knicks fire him in the first place. Which opens the question, if that's the case, why did Melo coach kill him in the first place. To deny Melo to deal with any accountability over Pringles getting whacked, the Knicks have to deviate from D'Antoni principles, which most of the rest of the league is using right now.

Do you know why cars show Miles Per Gallon ratings that don't really work in real life driving?

BECAUSE THEY TEST THOSE CARS IN A WIND TUNNEL.

But people don't drive all day in a wind tunnel do they? You can't just ignore how teams are built, limitations of the salary cap, how players are developed or not in college and that not all types of shots and scoring are created equal.

nixluva can throw out all the diagrams he wants, talk about previous teams nowhere near the Knicks current situation, and then continue to IGNORE ALL OTHER FORMS OF CONTEXT.

In most of these free agent threads, I keep going back to the same point - THERE IS A REASON THE GUY WAS AVAILABLE IN THE FIRST PLACE.

Well here - THERE'S A REASON WHY NO OTHER TEAM AND JUST ABOUT EVERY NOTABLE COLLEGE FEEDER PROGRAM DON'T USE THE TRIANGLE OFFENSE.

Isn't that just the sad bitter irony of all of this. Nixluva screaming out, and then creating a phantom account, that the Triangle Offense is some cure all elixir for the current Knicks because of it's adaptability, but in order to dogmatically get to that point with tunnel vision without any basic courtesy to the concept of context, it requires one to refuse to adapt how one actually views the modern game.

Nix wasn't comparing the current iteration of the Knicks to that of the Bulls or Lakers, that was your poor assumption, he was talking about the system in general. And this iteration of the Knicks is the first iteration of feeder system you so well describe: KP, Grant, Gallo, Early, Lopez (4 years), OQuin (4 years); surrounded by vets and professionals Melo, Calderon, AA, Lou, Thomas, Sasha; and 1+ year fliers Thansis, DWill, Seraphin. Next year Guillermo Hernangomez hits town. Add in the development of the D-League system. It's a process so why take a snapshot and declare it done?

Your assumption that the Triangle won't help this iteration of the Knicks because they haven't been together can be said about any team trying to implement any system. It takes time, duh.

All teams need to be built through the draft to succeed or just the Knicks? Or just team that want to run the triangle?

Dude, you need to lay off the personal attracts and dumb ass assumptions about posters in general, you've done it way too many times and it's only embarrassing to you and it takes away from everything else. Thanks.

Last year the "Triangle" vetted out players who would not adhere for various reasons. With the clarity of hindsight we know better but take a guy like Bargnani who has all the tools to be a great player in the triangle but lacks in other areas. He was untradeable so you give him a chance. We game Shump, JR, and Hardaway all ample opportunity.

martin wrote:

TripleThreat wrote:

nixluva wrote:Well you should be very happy to know that the Triangle is a very efficient offense and it's adaptable. Since it's a complete system you can mold it to your talent, add or take away any aspect of it. Phil has been constantly adapting the Triangle to take more advantage of the talents he's had and that process will continue in NY.

Are you really going to compare the current Knicks to the a pair of previous contenders in the Kobe/Shaq Lakers and the Jordan/Pippen/Rodman Bulls? Teams constructed several CBAs ago and literally, in sports timeline, in an entirely different era of play?

Adapt or die. Not that complicated a concept.

Any "system" looks to do pretty much the same things. Look for the open man. Take what the defense gives you. Take the high percentage shot. Keep the ball moving. Limit turnovers. Make your possessions count.

What no one wants to talk about is with no college based feeder system and with no other teams running the Triangle, choking out the talent and experience pipeline, a team would be forced to build through the draft, to gain that "synergy" that comes with players who have played together a very long time, to build that critical rapport and chemistry to run ANY offensive set more efficiently.

The problems here aren't going to change.

1) The current iteration of the Knicks WERE NOT BUILT THROUGH THE DRAFT. Right now it's a collection of free agents and fringe ones at that and a couple of rookies and some defensive sieve holdovers. It takes time for a team to gel together and learn to play together. If the Knicks wanted full usage of the Triangle, given there is no other feeder system, then they'd need to have been drafting and developing players in house, year after year.

2) Teams are jacking up threes at a historic pace in the modern game. A study at the MIT/Nike Sloan Conference produced results that said that even if you had historic level production in an offense that generates long twos, it would still be at a disadvantage to the average modern team jacking up those threes at a historic rate. The game, at some level, still comes down to a finite number of possessions against a shot clock and game clock. If you have the fastest horse in the world and take it onto the freeway, you will get smoked by the 15 year old puttering off brand sedan that limps around the city. If the Triangle gives you a clean look each time down the floor, but it takes your players 8-10 seconds to initiate the Triangle base set and burning valuable shot clock and reduces their ability to score in those critical last 4-5 seconds of the clock, that's not winning the war for the sake of the appearance of winning a single battle.

3) The signature player on the Knicks, Melo, does not move well off the ball. Is not a fundamentally sound player. Does not pass the ball well. Dribbles far too much and too often. Seems to only thrive in pure isolation even if his skill set suggests he should be functional in any offensive set.

The Triangle Offense can help *A* NBA team somewhere and some time.

The Triangle Offense WILL NOT help this current iteration of the modern Knicks and not against the backdrop of the modern game, which is about space and pace and drive and kick.

Do you want to know part of the bigger issue here?

Melo coach killed Mike D'Antoni. Who actually was far ahead of his time in terms of understanding where modern NBA offense would go and why they would go there. To embrace the modern game would be to redeploy many D'Antoni concepts, which opens up the question, if that's the case, why the hell did the Knicks fire him in the first place. Which opens the question, if that's the case, why did Melo coach kill him in the first place. To deny Melo to deal with any accountability over Pringles getting whacked, the Knicks have to deviate from D'Antoni principles, which most of the rest of the league is using right now.

Do you know why cars show Miles Per Gallon ratings that don't really work in real life driving?

BECAUSE THEY TEST THOSE CARS IN A WIND TUNNEL.

But people don't drive all day in a wind tunnel do they? You can't just ignore how teams are built, limitations of the salary cap, how players are developed or not in college and that not all types of shots and scoring are created equal.

nixluva can throw out all the diagrams he wants, talk about previous teams nowhere near the Knicks current situation, and then continue to IGNORE ALL OTHER FORMS OF CONTEXT.

In most of these free agent threads, I keep going back to the same point - THERE IS A REASON THE GUY WAS AVAILABLE IN THE FIRST PLACE.

Well here - THERE'S A REASON WHY NO OTHER TEAM AND JUST ABOUT EVERY NOTABLE COLLEGE FEEDER PROGRAM DON'T USE THE TRIANGLE OFFENSE.

Isn't that just the sad bitter irony of all of this. Nixluva screaming out, and then creating a phantom account, that the Triangle Offense is some cure all elixir for the current Knicks because of it's adaptability, but in order to dogmatically get to that point with tunnel vision without any basic courtesy to the concept of context, it requires one to refuse to adapt how one actually views the modern game.

Nix wasn't comparing the current iteration of the Knicks to that of the Bulls or Lakers, that was your poor assumption, he was talking about the system in general. And this iteration of the Knicks is the first iteration of feeder system you so well describe: KP, Grant, Gallo, Early, Lopez (4 years), OQuin (4 years); surrounded by vets and professionals Melo, Calderon, AA, Lou, Thomas, Sasha; and 1+ year fliers Thansis, DWill, Seraphin. Next year Guillermo Hernangomez hits town. Add in the development of the D-League system. It's a process so why take a snapshot and declare it done?

Your assumption that the Triangle won't help this iteration of the Knicks because they haven't been together can be said about any team trying to implement any system. It takes time, duh.

All teams need to be built through the draft to succeed or just the Knicks? Or just team that want to run the triangle?

Dude, you need to lay off the personal attracts and dumb ass assumptions about posters in general, you've done it way too many times and it's only embarrassing to you and it takes away from everything else. Thanks.

You see what happens when you take a decidedly one-sided approach to an idea without any consideration or thought or balance? It makes you look very stupid. And this one wasn't even that hard to fathom.

TripleThreat left long ago, so he won't be able to appreciate his pile of self-created dung.

CrushAlot wrote:^^^I was thinking about Triple and all of his posts where he aged Phil Jackson, talked about how he wasn't qualified as a gm and suggested that the Knicks would be better with a Hinkie or Morey type gm. Phil had one shot with the draft and he nailed it. It appears to be the same with free agency and his first free agent signing the year before.

And here's the kicker: Hinkie had 1 pick better, more cap space and lots more tries at the drafter over the past few years than Phil/Knicks and he has failed to date. It also seems to me that Morey has a broken team that has a lot of $$$ tied up in a world beating SG who doesn't play a lick of D; an all star C that has a bad back, bad personality and still can't hit a FT who has broken up more teams than we can remember; and a backup PG who is still out on suspension from DUI's. He fired the coach that over achieved. What now?

Malcolm wrote:

martin wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:^^^I was thinking about Triple and all of his posts where he aged Phil Jackson, talked about how he wasn't qualified as a gm and suggested that the Knicks would be better with a Hinkie or Morey type gm. Phil had one shot with the draft and he nailed it. It appears to be the same with free agency and his first free agent signing the year before.

And here's the kicker: Hinkie had 1 pick better, more cap space and lots more tries at the drafter over the past few years than Phil/Knicks and he has failed to date. It also seems to me that Morey has a broken team that has a lot of $$$ tied up in a world beating SG who doesn't play a lick of D; an all star C that has a bad back, bad personality and still can't hit a FT who has broken up more teams than we can remember; and a backup PG who is still out on suspension from DUI's. He fired the coach that over achieved. What now?

See how much easier it is to be a Knicks fan now (?)

Here . . . one can blame everything that goes wrong on the Triangle.

What do you do in Houston (?)

It's fun, gonna get better too

nixluva wrote:Lots of teams use Triangle Concepts today and have been for years. They just don't call it Triangle or adhere to all the other aspect of the System.

But I'll also fully admit that it's harder to know and see what's going on behind the scenes with that (mindfulness training and so on . . .)

martin wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:^^^I was thinking about Triple and all of his posts where he aged Phil Jackson, talked about how he wasn't qualified as a gm and suggested that the Knicks would be better with a Hinkie or Morey type gm. Phil had one shot with the draft and he nailed it. It appears to be the same with free agency and his first free agent signing the year before.

And here's the kicker: Hinkie had 1 pick better, more cap space and lots more tries at the drafter over the past few years than Phil/Knicks and he has failed to date. It also seems to me that Morey has a broken team that has a lot of $$$ tied up in a world beating SG who doesn't play a lick of D; an all star C that has a bad back, bad personality and still can't hit a FT who has broken up more teams than we can remember; and a backup PG who is still out on suspension from DUI's. He fired the coach that over achieved. What now?

wow a few wins and we are already chest banging as if we are in the ECF's

I think that I need a losing streak so that there is a humbling

CrushAlot wrote:

mreinman wrote:

martin wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:^^^I was thinking about Triple and all of his posts where he aged Phil Jackson, talked about how he wasn't qualified as a gm and suggested that the Knicks would be better with a Hinkie or Morey type gm. Phil had one shot with the draft and he nailed it. It appears to be the same with free agency and his first free agent signing the year before.

And here's the kicker: Hinkie had 1 pick better, more cap space and lots more tries at the drafter over the past few years than Phil/Knicks and he has failed to date. It also seems to me that Morey has a broken team that has a lot of $$$ tied up in a world beating SG who doesn't play a lick of D; an all star C that has a bad back, bad personality and still can't hit a FT who has broken up more teams than we can remember; and a backup PG who is still out on suspension from DUI's. He fired the coach that over achieved. What now?

wow a few wins and we are already chest banging as if we are in the ECF's

I think that I need a losing streak so that there is a humbling

I think the responses were to Triple who was brutal in his critique. Bumping threads is okay though right?

absolutely ok.

especially if one keeps bumping their own then its certainly fair game.

Anyway ... thats mr police man

nixluva wrote:

mreinman wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

mreinman wrote:

martin wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:^^^I was thinking about Triple and all of his posts where he aged Phil Jackson, talked about how he wasn't qualified as a gm and suggested that the Knicks would be better with a Hinkie or Morey type gm. Phil had one shot with the draft and he nailed it. It appears to be the same with free agency and his first free agent signing the year before.

And here's the kicker: Hinkie had 1 pick better, more cap space and lots more tries at the drafter over the past few years than Phil/Knicks and he has failed to date. It also seems to me that Morey has a broken team that has a lot of $$$ tied up in a world beating SG who doesn't play a lick of D; an all star C that has a bad back, bad personality and still can't hit a FT who has broken up more teams than we can remember; and a backup PG who is still out on suspension from DUI's. He fired the coach that over achieved. What now?

wow a few wins and we are already chest banging as if we are in the ECF's

I think that I need a losing streak so that there is a humbling

I think the responses were to Triple who was brutal in his critique. Bumping threads is okay though right?

absolutely ok.

especially if one keeps bumping their own then its certainly fair game.

Anyway ... thats mr police man

I don't understand why we need a losing streak to humble the fans that are happy with the team's progress!

Remember the threads discussing Phil's GM skills and whether he could effectively build a team? Guys like TT said he wasn't going to be able to do it for various reasons. So now if those of us who believed in Phil's plan and ability are pleased with the progress why is that somehow wrong or over the top and deserving of being humbled?

its just plain wrong.

Haven't we already been through decades of losing?
We have had one 50+ win season and 1 Finals appearance since..... ?

We are sharing the ball today and playing the right way and I dont care who chest bumps who on the way to a ticker tape parade down 5th Ave coz that's what its all about. If nixluva's optimism rubs some people the wrong way THAT BAD, there is an ignore button...you could use it, right?

I don't think we are running triangle sets, system etc whatever the bleep you wanna call it every single offensive play, but the fact is NO ONE can deny we are playing gorgeous basketball right now.

Put your energies into optimism for the Knicks today because we are playing the right way. Not just because we are winning, but because we are playing the right way AND winning!

Energy is a beautiful thing. Keep it upbeat, people! The sky is not falling! We are flying up to touch it!