dk7th wrote:

holfresh wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

TeamBall wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:Phil has taken a lot of heat for calling last yrs team a playoff team. It was and has been pretty clear to me though that he said that in order to test how the players would respond, then adapted accordingly.

I'm curious what makes you believe that

When he stated his experiment failed. Underachieveres like JR and Bargs would have to play close to alstar level in order for us to have been a playoff team. Shumpert would also need to bring his game to another level. Melo would need to use the tri to get way easier looks raising his overall efficiency. All these guys have talent. So it came down to mentality.

I think Phil tried to get them to buy in by giving them the goal of playoffs and publically endorsing them.

Or maybe the experiment was flawed..You can't subtract talent and coaching ability from a team that didn't make the playoffs the year before and then think the same team with less talent and coaching ability will make the playoffs...Either some one is drinking their own cool aid or they are not capable of appropriately assessing what's necessary to build a playoff team...

he's allowed to make bold assertions just like every other gm or president who is clearly in rebuild mode. walsh used the words "competitive" during the previous phase of roster teardown.

in case folks haven't noticed-- the knicks narrative has changed from "win-now with melo" to "rebuild a team and expect melo to buy in" to what the new regime is trying to do.

Now we've long since moved on from that group and it's a mostly new roster in terms of the rotation players. Theirs no point in worrying about the previous roster. It's all about the coming season and beyond. I think Phil has built a solid group. Nothing sexy but plenty of upside with the younger players. The vets should be solidly dependable role players. This team could be no less competitive than other teams in the East that are in the lower half of the playoff race.

holfresh wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

TeamBall wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:Phil has taken a lot of heat for calling last yrs team a playoff team. It was and has been pretty clear to me though that he said that in order to test how the players would respond, then adapted accordingly.

I'm curious what makes you believe that

When he stated his experiment failed. Underachieveres like JR and Bargs would have to play close to alstar level in order for us to have been a playoff team. Shumpert would also need to bring his game to another level. Melo would need to use the tri to get way easier looks raising his overall efficiency. All these guys have talent. So it came down to mentality.

I think Phil tried to get them to buy in by giving them the goal of playoffs and publically endorsing them.

Or maybe the experiment was flawed..You can't subtract talent and coaching ability from a team that didn't make the playoffs the year before and then think the same team with less talent and coaching ability will make the playoffs...Either some one is drinking their own cool aid or they are not capable of appropriately assessing what's necessary to build a playoff team...

You left out the option of him not realistically believing they were a playoff team but saying so in order to see how they respond. Other then Carmelo, Smith & Calderon every player on the roster was coming off the books. Tearing down and rebuilding was always available. Phil didn't make any short term move try to save the season and make playoff moves when things went south early. He could have easily packaged our 2018 pick Bargs expiring and maybe Early for an attempt to save the season. Phil didn't do anything to attempt to back up his claims if he truly beleived them. But he was def ready to tear it down.

newyorknewyork wrote:

holfresh wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

TeamBall wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:Phil has taken a lot of heat for calling last yrs team a playoff team. It was and has been pretty clear to me though that he said that in order to test how the players would respond, then adapted accordingly.

I'm curious what makes you believe that

When he stated his experiment failed. Underachieveres like JR and Bargs would have to play close to alstar level in order for us to have been a playoff team. Shumpert would also need to bring his game to another level. Melo would need to use the tri to get way easier looks raising his overall efficiency. All these guys have talent. So it came down to mentality.

I think Phil tried to get them to buy in by giving them the goal of playoffs and publically endorsing them.

Or maybe the experiment was flawed..You can't subtract talent and coaching ability from a team that didn't make the playoffs the year before and then think the same team with less talent and coaching ability will make the playoffs...Either some one is drinking their own cool aid or they are not capable of appropriately assessing what's necessary to build a playoff team...

You left out the option of him not realistically believing they were a playoff team but saying so in order to see how they respond. Other then Carmelo, Smith & Calderon every player on the roster was coming off the books. Tearing down and rebuilding was always available. Phil didn't make any short term move try to save the season and make playoff moves when things went south early. He could have easily packaged our 2018 pick Bargs expiring and maybe Early for an attempt to save the season. Phil didn't do anything to attempt to back up his claims if he truly beleived them. But he was def ready to tear it down.

nixluva wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

holfresh wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

TeamBall wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:Phil has taken a lot of heat for calling last yrs team a playoff team. It was and has been pretty clear to me though that he said that in order to test how the players would respond, then adapted accordingly.

I'm curious what makes you believe that

When he stated his experiment failed. Underachieveres like JR and Bargs would have to play close to alstar level in order for us to have been a playoff team. Shumpert would also need to bring his game to another level. Melo would need to use the tri to get way easier looks raising his overall efficiency. All these guys have talent. So it came down to mentality.

I think Phil tried to get them to buy in by giving them the goal of playoffs and publically endorsing them.

Or maybe the experiment was flawed..You can't subtract talent and coaching ability from a team that didn't make the playoffs the year before and then think the same team with less talent and coaching ability will make the playoffs...Either some one is drinking their own cool aid or they are not capable of appropriately assessing what's necessary to build a playoff team...

You left out the option of him not realistically believing they were a playoff team but saying so in order to see how they respond. Other then Carmelo, Smith & Calderon every player on the roster was coming off the books. Tearing down and rebuilding was always available. Phil didn't make any short term move try to save the season and make playoff moves when things went south early. He could have easily packaged our 2018 pick Bargs expiring and maybe Early for an attempt to save the season. Phil didn't do anything to attempt to back up his claims if he truly beleived them. But he was def ready to tear it down.

YUP! It amazes me how low an opinion of Phil's intellect some people seem to have. He's not a fool and he thinks long and hard about things. He surely had several scenarios played out ahead of the season. It's not like he just started in basketball and had no idea of what could go wrong and how he'd proceed if it did.

It's the same with this summer's moves. You have to have contingency plans for many likely outcomes. Despite what some may think he's not just winging it and making it up as he goes. Sure there are always changes and some opportunities that present themselves you have to be prepared to take advantage of but there is an underlying blueprint to how Phil wants to build this team.

Nix i know you know that the people that always complain about what Phil has done will even find things to complain about if we win 60 games next year. It's what they do. I definitely thought we were gonna make the playoffs last year at the beginning of the season. It's not that hard to do in the east and we had a good team on paper.

That puts us up to 27 wins. I see us getting another ten with the upgrades.

Chemistry and system could pull us to 500. We will see.

nixluva wrote:

TeamBall wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:Phil has taken a lot of heat for calling last yrs team a playoff team. It was and has been pretty clear to me though that he said that in order to test how the players would respond, then adapted accordingly.

I'm curious what makes you believe that

Very early Phil kept saying that he wanted to see who was a learner and who wasn't. He viewed it as a trial at the beginning of the year. Clearly the team failed and he's pretty much revamped the roster. Now this process is all about refining the roster with his players over the next few seasons.

I could've saved Dolan $60mil by letting him know that JR & Melo are not learners after watching them play the last few years sheesh

holfresh wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

holfresh wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

TeamBall wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:Phil has taken a lot of heat for calling last yrs team a playoff team. It was and has been pretty clear to me though that he said that in order to test how the players would respond, then adapted accordingly.

I'm curious what makes you believe that

When he stated his experiment failed. Underachieveres like JR and Bargs would have to play close to alstar level in order for us to have been a playoff team. Shumpert would also need to bring his game to another level. Melo would need to use the tri to get way easier looks raising his overall efficiency. All these guys have talent. So it came down to mentality.

I think Phil tried to get them to buy in by giving them the goal of playoffs and publically endorsing them.

Or maybe the experiment was flawed..You can't subtract talent and coaching ability from a team that didn't make the playoffs the year before and then think the same team with less talent and coaching ability will make the playoffs...Either some one is drinking their own cool aid or they are not capable of appropriately assessing what's necessary to build a playoff team...

You left out the option of him not realistically believing they were a playoff team but saying so in order to see how they respond. Other then Carmelo, Smith & Calderon every player on the roster was coming off the books. Tearing down and rebuilding was always available. Phil didn't make any short term move try to save the season and make playoff moves when things went south early. He could have easily packaged our 2018 pick Bargs expiring and maybe Early for an attempt to save the season. Phil didn't do anything to attempt to back up his claims if he truly beleived them. But he was def ready to tear it down.

I was responding to things Phil actually said, not to things someone imagined he could have meant by the term "experiment"..Fisher said at the end of the season that next year we could win 63 games..Is that an "experiment" too??..Phil is the guy in charge and he took ownership for the season..Why try to deflect to the players?..Most of the players went elsewhere and played well...Phil is in the process of deflecting blame in the Rosen articles by the way..

Its not imagination it's logic. If you asked 100 ppl if the Knicks were making playoffs during the same time 90% would say that it depended on the contributions of guys like JR, Shump, Bargs, Amare, Calderon to go around Melo. As well as how good of a coach Fisher was going to be his rookie yr. All variables that were not possible for anyone including Phil Jackson to know.

There was no benefit for Phil himself to claim playoffs to the public. Even if he did believe it. So he must have said so for a reason.

Then when you look at his actions which speak louder then the words you want to respond to. His actions demonstrate that he wasn't really surprised by the failure and was more then prepared for it.

newyorknewyork wrote:

holfresh wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

holfresh wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

TeamBall wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:Phil has taken a lot of heat for calling last yrs team a playoff team. It was and has been pretty clear to me though that he said that in order to test how the players would respond, then adapted accordingly.

I'm curious what makes you believe that

When he stated his experiment failed. Underachieveres like JR and Bargs would have to play close to alstar level in order for us to have been a playoff team. Shumpert would also need to bring his game to another level. Melo would need to use the tri to get way easier looks raising his overall efficiency. All these guys have talent. So it came down to mentality.

I think Phil tried to get them to buy in by giving them the goal of playoffs and publically endorsing them.

Or maybe the experiment was flawed..You can't subtract talent and coaching ability from a team that didn't make the playoffs the year before and then think the same team with less talent and coaching ability will make the playoffs...Either some one is drinking their own cool aid or they are not capable of appropriately assessing what's necessary to build a playoff team...

You left out the option of him not realistically believing they were a playoff team but saying so in order to see how they respond. Other then Carmelo, Smith & Calderon every player on the roster was coming off the books. Tearing down and rebuilding was always available. Phil didn't make any short term move try to save the season and make playoff moves when things went south early. He could have easily packaged our 2018 pick Bargs expiring and maybe Early for an attempt to save the season. Phil didn't do anything to attempt to back up his claims if he truly beleived them. But he was def ready to tear it down.

I was responding to things Phil actually said, not to things someone imagined he could have meant by the term "experiment"..Fisher said at the end of the season that next year we could win 63 games..Is that an "experiment" too??..Phil is the guy in charge and he took ownership for the season..Why try to deflect to the players?..Most of the players went elsewhere and played well...Phil is in the process of deflecting blame in the Rosen articles by the way..

Its not imagination it's logic. If you asked 100 ppl if the Knicks were making playoffs during the same time 90% would say that it depended on the contributions of guys like JR, Shump, Bargs, Amare, Calderon to go around Melo. As well as how good of a coach Fisher was going to be his rookie yr. All variables that were not possible for anyone including Phil Jackson to know.

There was no benefit for Phil himself to claim playoffs to the public. Even if he did believe it. So he must have said so for a reason.

Then when you look at his actions which speak louder then the words you want to respond to. His actions demonstrate that he wasn't really surprised by the failure and was more then prepared for it.

There were 60 million good reasons for Phil Jackson to accept the formidable challenge of rebuilding the Knicks along with one intangible benefit that could not be banked. Some might think the one he chose, however, borders on obsession: to resurrect his beloved triangle and prove to the world that it is an offense for the ages.

But it didn’t take long after Jackson sat down for a recent interview over lunch to admit that his debut as an N.B.A. executive has been sobering, stressful and, during early morning reflections, doubt-inducing.

“Like nothing I’ve seen before,” he said of the Knicks’ first 41 games, of which they lost 36, a half-season of hell. “So far, my experiment has fallen flat on its face.”

holfresh wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

holfresh wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

holfresh wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

TeamBall wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:Phil has taken a lot of heat for calling last yrs team a playoff team. It was and has been pretty clear to me though that he said that in order to test how the players would respond, then adapted accordingly.

I'm curious what makes you believe that

When he stated his experiment failed. Underachieveres like JR and Bargs would have to play close to alstar level in order for us to have been a playoff team. Shumpert would also need to bring his game to another level. Melo would need to use the tri to get way easier looks raising his overall efficiency. All these guys have talent. So it came down to mentality.

I think Phil tried to get them to buy in by giving them the goal of playoffs and publically endorsing them.

Or maybe the experiment was flawed..You can't subtract talent and coaching ability from a team that didn't make the playoffs the year before and then think the same team with less talent and coaching ability will make the playoffs...Either some one is drinking their own cool aid or they are not capable of appropriately assessing what's necessary to build a playoff team...

You left out the option of him not realistically believing they were a playoff team but saying so in order to see how they respond. Other then Carmelo, Smith & Calderon every player on the roster was coming off the books. Tearing down and rebuilding was always available. Phil didn't make any short term move try to save the season and make playoff moves when things went south early. He could have easily packaged our 2018 pick Bargs expiring and maybe Early for an attempt to save the season. Phil didn't do anything to attempt to back up his claims if he truly beleived them. But he was def ready to tear it down.

I was responding to things Phil actually said, not to things someone imagined he could have meant by the term "experiment"..Fisher said at the end of the season that next year we could win 63 games..Is that an "experiment" too??..Phil is the guy in charge and he took ownership for the season..Why try to deflect to the players?..Most of the players went elsewhere and played well...Phil is in the process of deflecting blame in the Rosen articles by the way..

Its not imagination it's logic. If you asked 100 ppl if the Knicks were making playoffs during the same time 90% would say that it depended on the contributions of guys like JR, Shump, Bargs, Amare, Calderon to go around Melo. As well as how good of a coach Fisher was going to be his rookie yr. All variables that were not possible for anyone including Phil Jackson to know.

There was no benefit for Phil himself to claim playoffs to the public. Even if he did believe it. So he must have said so for a reason.

Then when you look at his actions which speak louder then the words you want to respond to. His actions demonstrate that he wasn't really surprised by the failure and was more then prepared for it.

Harvey Araton of the NYTimes conducted the interview when Phil make the comment...Araton is saying the experiment was the implementation of the triangle as a viable system in today's game..

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/04/sports/basketball/phil-jackson-is-out-to-prove-that-his-signature-offense-still-fits.html

There were 60 million good reasons for Phil Jackson to accept the formidable challenge of rebuilding the Knicks along with one intangible benefit that could not be banked. Some might think the one he chose, however, borders on obsession: to resurrect his beloved triangle and prove to the world that it is an offense for the ages.

But it didn’t take long after Jackson sat down for a recent interview over lunch to admit that his debut as an N.B.A. executive has been sobering, stressful and, during early morning reflections, doubt-inducing.

“Like nothing I’ve seen before,” he said of the Knicks’ first 41 games, of which they lost 36, a half-season of hell. “So far, my experiment has fallen flat on its face.”

#1 his quote is extremely vague. #2 To claim that he is talking strictly about his triangle offense being a failed experiment is silly. There is no way he is calling his triangle offense a failed experiment when that is the offense we are going to continue to run and the one he believes in. The only real changing parts are the players. If the triangle was the failed experiment then he would have kept the players and changed the system.

dk7th wrote:

nykshaknbake wrote:Lets see how the pieces fit and if the Knicks can run things without an at least average starting PG before we proclaim victory and celebrate Phil Jacksons genius. There are alot of ifs that have to go favorably for this team to succeed. The draft will hinge on how porzingis does..if he turns out to be a dud the draft was a failure. I don't think anyone is blown out of the water with the Afflalo signing and probably not the Lopez signing even if you think it was fair.

Point is the free agency period can't be categorized as an unqualified success right now and neither can the draft. People rushing to bash people critical of Phil Jackson and thinking they should apologize may be eating crow very quickly. Certainly people painting a rosy picture and making fun of haters have been proven fools(my self included a few times) consistently for the past decade plus.

knicks are winning between 29-38 games so no matter what jackson critics will feel vindicated, even if woefully out of touch with the real world.

You bitched and moaned during our 54 win, second round exit, season..Now you are saying fans are woefully out of touch if we don't embrace a 29 win season??..Step away from the bong..