ive never liked elliot williams ever since he was overrated coming out of HS

i would love to take a flyer onj. jenkins though

BigDaddyG wrote:

VCoug wrote:Don't really see the benefit for Houston. How does Ty Lawson fit next to James Harden? They're both ball-dominant guards who want the ball in their hands.

Harden complained that he wanted another ballhandler after the playoffs. Well, one just fell into Houston's lap.

Bingo. Harden won't win if all his teammates are single digit scorers. This is a gift to Houston as long as they can put up with Lawson. It's a good gamble.

Finestrg wrote:A little disappointed. I was kinda holding out hope that we would've swung a deal for Lawson. I know he wasn't a popular choice on this board but I discussed a good 5 reasons or so why he would've made sense here. Who knows if we were ever even in on the conversation for him--I don't think we could've matched the deal Houston came up with to get him, which included a 1st round pick. So yet another potential backcourt upgrade off the table...I see others aren't too concerned about pursuing a couple of good players to finish the roster off sooner than later. I gotta disagree there -- I feel the more we wait, the more we're content to sit on our hands, the more options will continue to pass us by. Shved's gone, the kid Hackett went back to Europe, now Lawson's gone..Who's next--John Jenkins, Elliot Williams (one scenario I've been thinking about is cutting Ledo and picking up both Jenkins and Elliot Williams)?

Just curious why we even bothered working Williams out if we weren't gonna offer him a contract. What were we looking for in a private workout that he didn't show in his stellar DL stint this year which included being a DL all-star, a DL Finals run and Finals MVP honors? Look, I know what EW is--I know this kid isn't Michael Jordan, I know he's not the type of FA we contact first when the clock strikes midnight on the first day of free agency, I know he's been injured and I know he's had trouble sticking in the NBA--I still say he fits like a glove. He fits every quality we should be looking for in an extra guard--he's right in our salary range, he's available, he's got the versatility to play both guard spots we seem to covet, he's still young, plays reasonably good defense, he's athletic and can push the ball/play above the rim at times, and despite being a scorer (can never have enough scoring btw) he can handle the ball, he's unselfish and a very good passer. For a 14th, 15th guy, what more could we possibly want? The fact of the matter is he's no ordinary 15th man on a roster--over here he could very well compete for primary backup PG and SG duties (I'd argue he's actually a better player than Calderon, Galloway and Ledo). I think EW's good enough to start in the NBA.. I'd like to grab this guy now while we still can. He's a lot of value on a minimum contract. Just my 2 cents..

I'm not sure you realize this but just because you came up with some ideas that you think is right for the Knicks doesn't mean they are actually right? We have people in place to make the moves that's right for what they're trying to accomplish which nobody on here knows how to do better than them. We're just fans on a message board having our own debates with each other about what we would like to see done and how we feel about what's been done so far. We don't know if Lawson would fit what Phil is wanting to do and if having that kind of contract on our books would hurt what his plans for the future are because he has a pretty hefty contract and he's a certain type of player that only fits certain types of systems. I'm good with what Phil has done so far and how he hasn't hurt our future with bad contracts and has signed players that want to play TEAM basketball. People need to remember that the team we have now is not the finished product and i'm looking forward to seeing Phil's finished product which will hopefully be finished after next summer and i think Lawson and his contract would of hurt that.

Finestrg wrote:

newyorker4ever wrote:

Finestrg wrote:A little disappointed. I was kinda holding out hope that we would've swung a deal for Lawson. I know he wasn't a popular choice on this board but I discussed a good 5 reasons or so why he would've made sense here. Who knows if we were ever even in on the conversation for him--I don't think we could've matched the deal Houston came up with to get him, which included a 1st round pick. So yet another potential backcourt upgrade off the table...I see others aren't too concerned about pursuing a couple of good players to finish the roster off sooner than later. I gotta disagree there -- I feel the more we wait, the more we're content to sit on our hands, the more options will continue to pass us by. Shved's gone, the kid Hackett went back to Europe, now Lawson's gone..Who's next--John Jenkins, Elliot Williams (one scenario I've been thinking about is cutting Ledo and picking up both Jenkins and Elliot Williams)?

Just curious why we even bothered working Williams out if we weren't gonna offer him a contract. What were we looking for in a private workout that he didn't show in his stellar DL stint this year which included being a DL all-star, a DL Finals run and Finals MVP honors? Look, I know what EW is--I know this kid isn't Michael Jordan, I know he's not the type of FA we contact first when the clock strikes midnight on the first day of free agency, I know he's been injured and I know he's had trouble sticking in the NBA--I still say he fits like a glove. He fits every quality we should be looking for in an extra guard--he's right in our salary range, he's available, he's got the versatility to play both guard spots we seem to covet, he's still young, plays reasonably good defense, he's athletic and can push the ball/play above the rim at times, and despite being a scorer (can never have enough scoring btw) he can handle the ball, he's unselfish and a very good passer. For a 14th, 15th guy, what more could we possibly want? The fact of the matter is he's no ordinary 15th man on a roster--over here he could very well compete for primary backup PG and SG duties (I'd argue he's actually a better player than Calderon, Galloway and Ledo). I think EW's good enough to start in the NBA.. I'd like to grab this guy now while we still can. He's a lot of value on a minimum contract. Just my 2 cents..

I'm not sure you realize this but just because you came up with some ideas that you think is right for the Knicks doesn't mean they are actually right? We have people in place to make the moves that's right for what they're trying to accomplish which nobody on here knows how to do better than them. We're just fans on a message board having our own debates with each other about what we would like to see done and how we feel about what's been done so far. We don't know if Lawson would fit what Phil is wanting to do and if having that kind of contract on our books would hurt what his plans for the future are because he has a pretty hefty contract and he's a certain type of player that only fits certain types of systems. I'm good with what Phil has done so far and how he hasn't hurt our future with bad contracts and has signed players that want to play TEAM basketball. People need to remember that the team we have now is not the finished product and i'm looking forward to seeing Phil's finished product which will hopefully be finished after next summer and i think Lawson and his contract would of hurt that.

I realize and carefully consider most everything surrounding this team before I ever bother to put fingers to keyboard. But hey, thanks for taking the time to point out something I may have missed. Appreciate it, pal..

2nd, I do agree with you here: "We're just fans on a message board having our own debates with each other about what we would like to see done and how we feel about what's been done so far." Right. No argument. That's what the board is all about--and not just for you and your thoughts--for EVERYONE. You have your opinions, I have mine. Never understood criticizing someone for their taken on matters. Either agree or don't even waste your time commenting...Difference of opinion as to what Ty Lawson could've done for this team. No big deal. I had it as adding only $3-4mm per yr over the next 2 seasons if we had swapped Lawson for Calderon and also gave them a sweetener or 2 (Early, cash?). At that time Lawson would've come off the books, same time as Calderon. Not a significant increase in salary cap over the next 2 seasons and not a significant commitment in length of contract. You wanna argue that maybe that 3-4mm might interfere with the possibility of bringing in a big-time FA next year? Ok, you might be right. I pointed this out with Alexey Shved and why the team may have made the decision to not offer him anything above his vet minimum...Alas, HOU came up with a better deal than what I was proposing which actually included a 1st round pick. We wouldn't have been able to offer that, so I've moved on. I already pointed this out -- all I was questioning was whether or not we had any meaningful discussion with DEN for Lawson, a guy that was linked to the Knicks in a possibly "trade down" scenario leading up to the draft. And I pointed out that this is another potential guard upgrade that has gone by the wayside (a productive 'win now' player in his prime who's had prior experience playing with Melo and Afflalo btw). I'm disappointed--I like and value Lawson's game and think he could've done well here. Some apparently don't feel that way. I do...Let's move on. I already did in my first post. LOL.

I'm much more puzzled over the inability and lack of urgency to finish off the roster, esp. at the guard spot where at least 2 good options remain (John Jenkins and Elliot Williams). I can't for the life of me see how they might feel that a backcourt consisting of Jose Calderon and Langston Galloway as two main contributors could possibly be good enough. Add to that Ricky Ledo, who hasn't looked great this summer and Jerian Grant, a rookie and no reliable backup 2G in place behind Afflalo--there's a ton of question marks there. I like what they did with the frontcourt--hey, can't get on Phil because all these top FA bigs passed on the Knicks (although I still believe that if we offered Greg Monroe the max, we could've gotten him--I don't think we did, despite what his agent said which came across as an attempt to save face for the Knicks and maintain/salvage a good working relationship between his clients and the team for any future dealings). Phil made decent secondary moves to bolster the frontcourt. Don't feel nearly as good about backcourt depth right now. I feel one of the last 2 spots (assuming Ledo makes the team--maybe he doesn't) ABSOLUTELY MUST to go to a guard, preferably one who's versatile enough to play both spots, which seems to be what they value and are looking for anyway. Who better than Elliot Williams fits that criteria?

Wow that's a lot to read so I think i'm just gonna pass on reading it but i'm sure there's some really good stuff in there somewhere. Maybe.

Finestrg wrote:

newyorker4ever wrote:

Finestrg wrote:

newyorker4ever wrote:

Finestrg wrote:A little disappointed. I was kinda holding out hope that we would've swung a deal for Lawson. I know he wasn't a popular choice on this board but I discussed a good 5 reasons or so why he would've made sense here. Who knows if we were ever even in on the conversation for him--I don't think we could've matched the deal Houston came up with to get him, which included a 1st round pick. So yet another potential backcourt upgrade off the table...I see others aren't too concerned about pursuing a couple of good players to finish the roster off sooner than later. I gotta disagree there -- I feel the more we wait, the more we're content to sit on our hands, the more options will continue to pass us by. Shved's gone, the kid Hackett went back to Europe, now Lawson's gone..Who's next--John Jenkins, Elliot Williams (one scenario I've been thinking about is cutting Ledo and picking up both Jenkins and Elliot Williams)?

Just curious why we even bothered working Williams out if we weren't gonna offer him a contract. What were we looking for in a private workout that he didn't show in his stellar DL stint this year which included being a DL all-star, a DL Finals run and Finals MVP honors? Look, I know what EW is--I know this kid isn't Michael Jordan, I know he's not the type of FA we contact first when the clock strikes midnight on the first day of free agency, I know he's been injured and I know he's had trouble sticking in the NBA--I still say he fits like a glove. He fits every quality we should be looking for in an extra guard--he's right in our salary range, he's available, he's got the versatility to play both guard spots we seem to covet, he's still young, plays reasonably good defense, he's athletic and can push the ball/play above the rim at times, and despite being a scorer (can never have enough scoring btw) he can handle the ball, he's unselfish and a very good passer. For a 14th, 15th guy, what more could we possibly want? The fact of the matter is he's no ordinary 15th man on a roster--over here he could very well compete for primary backup PG and SG duties (I'd argue he's actually a better player than Calderon, Galloway and Ledo). I think EW's good enough to start in the NBA.. I'd like to grab this guy now while we still can. He's a lot of value on a minimum contract. Just my 2 cents..

I'm not sure you realize this but just because you came up with some ideas that you think is right for the Knicks doesn't mean they are actually right? We have people in place to make the moves that's right for what they're trying to accomplish which nobody on here knows how to do better than them. We're just fans on a message board having our own debates with each other about what we would like to see done and how we feel about what's been done so far. We don't know if Lawson would fit what Phil is wanting to do and if having that kind of contract on our books would hurt what his plans for the future are because he has a pretty hefty contract and he's a certain type of player that only fits certain types of systems. I'm good with what Phil has done so far and how he hasn't hurt our future with bad contracts and has signed players that want to play TEAM basketball. People need to remember that the team we have now is not the finished product and i'm looking forward to seeing Phil's finished product which will hopefully be finished after next summer and i think Lawson and his contract would of hurt that.

I realize and carefully consider most everything surrounding this team before I ever bother to put fingers to keyboard. But hey, thanks for taking the time to point out something I may have missed. Appreciate it, pal..

2nd, I do agree with you here: "We're just fans on a message board having our own debates with each other about what we would like to see done and how we feel about what's been done so far." Right. No argument. That's what the board is all about--and not just for you and your thoughts--for EVERYONE. You have your opinions, I have mine. Never understood criticizing someone for their taken on matters. Either agree or don't even waste your time commenting...Difference of opinion as to what Ty Lawson could've done for this team. No big deal. I had it as adding only $3-4mm per yr over the next 2 seasons if we had swapped Lawson for Calderon and also gave them a sweetener or 2 (Early, cash?). At that time Lawson would've come off the books, same time as Calderon. Not a significant increase in salary cap over the next 2 seasons and not a significant commitment in length of contract. You wanna argue that maybe that 3-4mm might interfere with the possibility of bringing in a big-time FA next year? Ok, you might be right. I pointed this out with Alexey Shved and why the team may have made the decision to not offer him anything above his vet minimum...Alas, HOU came up with a better deal than what I was proposing which actually included a 1st round pick. We wouldn't have been able to offer that, so I've moved on. I already pointed this out -- all I was questioning was whether or not we had any meaningful discussion with DEN for Lawson, a guy that was linked to the Knicks in a possibly "trade down" scenario leading up to the draft. And I pointed out that this is another potential guard upgrade that has gone by the wayside (a productive 'win now' player in his prime who's had prior experience playing with Melo and Afflalo btw). I'm disappointed--I like and value Lawson's game and think he could've done well here. Some apparently don't feel that way. I do...Let's move on. I already did in my first post. LOL.

I'm much more puzzled over the inability and lack of urgency to finish off the roster, esp. at the guard spot where at least 2 good options remain (John Jenkins and Elliot Williams). I can't for the life of me see how they might feel that a backcourt consisting of Jose Calderon and Langston Galloway as two main contributors could possibly be good enough. Add to that Ricky Ledo, who hasn't looked great this summer and Jerian Grant, a rookie and no reliable backup 2G in place behind Afflalo--there's a ton of question marks there. I like what they did with the frontcourt--hey, can't get on Phil because all these top FA bigs passed on the Knicks (although I still believe that if we offered Greg Monroe the max, we could've gotten him--I don't think we did, despite what his agent said which came across as an attempt to save face for the Knicks and maintain/salvage a good working relationship between his clients and the team for any future dealings). Phil made decent secondary moves to bolster the frontcourt. Don't feel nearly as good about backcourt depth right now. I feel one of the last 2 spots (assuming Ledo makes the team--maybe he doesn't) ABSOLUTELY MUST to go to a guard, preferably one who's versatile enough to play both spots, which seems to be what they value and are looking for anyway. Who better than Elliot Williams fits that criteria?

Wow that's a lot to read so I think i'm just gonna pass on reading it but i'm sure there's some really good stuff in there somewhere. Maybe.

Fine, no problem. You wanna take me to task on something then run for the hills when I respond, that's on you. Have a nice day.

I am having a fantastic day so thank you for that. I didn't realize you would get all whiny when someone disagrees with you but this is a message board and if I don't agree with something you say then i'my gonna let you know about it cause that's what these fan boards are for so that's what i'm gonna do. I just don't care to read a 3 paragraph response is all. Now you have a nice day sir.

TPercy wrote:Finestrg I think phisher considers Galloway a sg. so he will likely be the back up shooting guard. If galloway can significantly reduce the amount of midrange shots he took and keep improving his 3pts shot then I will be okay with it.

I thought he would be a better SG as well but when they talked to him after the 4th SL game he was talking about what he needs to do next year at the PG position. I think him along with just about everyone can and will play multiple positions but Gallo was definitely talking like he'd be playing the 1 spot in that interview.

WaltLongmire wrote:

Finestrg wrote:

newyorker4ever wrote:

Finestrg wrote:A little disappointed. I was kinda holding out hope that we would've swung a deal for Lawson. I know he wasn't a popular choice on this board but I discussed a good 5 reasons or so why he would've made sense here. Who knows if we were ever even in on the conversation for him--I don't think we could've matched the deal Houston came up with to get him, which included a 1st round pick. So yet another potential backcourt upgrade off the table...I see others aren't too concerned about pursuing a couple of good players to finish the roster off sooner than later. I gotta disagree there -- I feel the more we wait, the more we're content to sit on our hands, the more options will continue to pass us by. Shved's gone, the kid Hackett went back to Europe, now Lawson's gone..Who's next--John Jenkins, Elliot Williams (one scenario I've been thinking about is cutting Ledo and picking up both Jenkins and Elliot Williams)?

Just curious why we even bothered working Williams out if we weren't gonna offer him a contract. What were we looking for in a private workout that he didn't show in his stellar DL stint this year which included being a DL all-star, a DL Finals run and Finals MVP honors? Look, I know what EW is--I know this kid isn't Michael Jordan, I know he's not the type of FA we contact first when the clock strikes midnight on the first day of free agency, I know he's been injured and I know he's had trouble sticking in the NBA--I still say he fits like a glove. He fits every quality we should be looking for in an extra guard--he's right in our salary range, he's available, he's got the versatility to play both guard spots we seem to covet, he's still young, plays reasonably good defense, he's athletic and can push the ball/play above the rim at times, and despite being a scorer (can never have enough scoring btw) he can handle the ball, he's unselfish and a very good passer. For a 14th, 15th guy, what more could we possibly want? The fact of the matter is he's no ordinary 15th man on a roster--over here he could very well compete for primary backup PG and SG duties (I'd argue he's actually a better player than Calderon, Galloway and Ledo). I think EW's good enough to start in the NBA.. I'd like to grab this guy now while we still can. He's a lot of value on a minimum contract. Just my 2 cents..

I'm not sure you realize this but just because you came up with some ideas that you think is right for the Knicks doesn't mean they are actually right? We have people in place to make the moves that's right for what they're trying to accomplish which nobody on here knows how to do better than them. We're just fans on a message board having our own debates with each other about what we would like to see done and how we feel about what's been done so far. We don't know if Lawson would fit what Phil is wanting to do and if having that kind of contract on our books would hurt what his plans for the future are because he has a pretty hefty contract and he's a certain type of player that only fits certain types of systems. I'm good with what Phil has done so far and how he hasn't hurt our future with bad contracts and has signed players that want to play TEAM basketball. People need to remember that the team we have now is not the finished product and i'm looking forward to seeing Phil's finished product which will hopefully be finished after next summer and i think Lawson and his contract would of hurt that.

I realize and carefully consider most everything surrounding this team before I ever bother to put fingers to keyboard. But hey, thanks for taking the time to point out something I may have missed. Appreciate it, pal..

2nd, I do agree with you here: "We're just fans on a message board having our own debates with each other about what we would like to see done and how we feel about what's been done so far." Right. No argument. That's what the board is all about--and not just for you and your thoughts--for EVERYONE. You have your opinions, I have mine. Never understood criticizing someone for their taken on matters. Either agree or don't even waste your time commenting...Difference of opinion as to what Ty Lawson could've done for this team. No big deal. I had it as adding only $3-4mm per yr over the next 2 seasons if we had swapped Lawson for Calderon and also gave them a sweetener or 2 (Early, cash?). At that time Lawson would've come off the books, same time as Calderon. Not a significant increase in salary cap over the next 2 seasons and not a significant commitment in length of contract. You wanna argue that maybe that 3-4mm might interfere with the possibility of bringing in a big-time FA next year? Ok, you might be right. I pointed this out with Alexey Shved and why the team may have made the decision to not offer him anything above his vet minimum...Alas, HOU came up with a better deal than what I was proposing which actually included a 1st round pick. We wouldn't have been able to offer that, so I've moved on. I already pointed this out -- all I was questioning was whether or not we had any meaningful discussion with DEN for Lawson, a guy that was linked to the Knicks in a possibly "trade down" scenario leading up to the draft. And I pointed out that this is another potential guard upgrade that has gone by the wayside (a productive 'win now' player in his prime who's had prior experience playing with Melo and Afflalo btw). I'm disappointed--I like and value Lawson's game and think he could've done well here. Some apparently don't feel that way. I do...Let's move on. I already did in my first post. LOL.

I'm much more puzzled over the inability and lack of urgency to finish off the roster, esp. at the guard spot where at least 2 good options remain (John Jenkins and Elliot Williams). I can't for the life of me see how they might feel that a backcourt consisting of Jose Calderon and Langston Galloway as two main contributors could possibly be good enough. Add to that Ricky Ledo, who hasn't looked great this summer and Jerian Grant, a rookie and no reliable backup 2G in place behind Afflalo--there's a ton of question marks there. I like what they did with the frontcourt--hey, can't get on Phil because all these top FA bigs passed on the Knicks (although I still believe that if we offered Greg Monroe the max, we could've gotten him--I don't think we did, despite what his agent said which came across as an attempt to save face for the Knicks and maintain/salvage a good working relationship between his clients and the team for any future dealings). Phil made decent secondary moves to bolster the frontcourt. Don't feel nearly as good about backcourt depth right now. I feel one of the last 2 spots (assuming Ledo makes the team--maybe he doesn't) ABSOLUTELY MUST to go to a guard, preferably one who's versatile enough to play both spots, which seems to be what they value and are looking for anyway. Who in the vet minimum/league minimum salary range fits that criteria better than Elliot Williams?

Really need to wait until teams sort out their rosters-no? You might find players who were released because they were redundant, or for financial reasons, I would think.

Really depends on what Phil thinks of this or that player. I would prefer caution unless there's a player available who Jackson believes is perfect for what he is looking for.

Have to assume that the folks out there at this moment have not impressed him enough, or he thinks he can get better later on.

I'm willing to trust his judgement at this point.

RonRon wrote:If Phil Jackson really has interest in Beverely and Morey really had interest in CA at a MAX
CA can join a contender and make even more money with the trade kicker, no state tax, and get wide open shots with defenders to help him

Morey can still give us a good package for CA if he shows he can play at a high level

Beverly
DMO
Terrence Jones
Brewer or KJ McDaniels
2 2nd rounders, 2016 Knicks 2nd rounder, 2017 Portland 2nd rounder
2 future 1st rounders from Houston
150% rule

Rights to Monztrell/Decker
Throw ins if needed...

for

CA
and throw ins
Early
Ledo

I want to trade Melo more than anybody and Houston is a nice option because they have young guys on cheap deals and Melo might bite given their overall talent.

That said --- do you think Houston would ever give that kind of package for Melo? That is potentially better than the horrid deal the Knicks gave Denver for prime Melo.

I'd be happy with (DMO, Beverly, Decker and McDaniels) and maybe a protected future 1 and a couple of seconds.

I just want to move Melo for some young assets and cap space -- I think realizes this needs to be done as well --- need to find a place Melo will bite on.

TripleThreat wrote:

RonRon wrote:If Phil Jackson really has interest in Beverely and Morey really had interest in CA at a MAX
CA can join a contender and make even more money with the trade kicker, no state tax, and get wide open shots with defenders to help him

Morey can still give us a good package for CA if he shows he can play at a high level

Beverly
DMO
Terrence Jones
Brewer or KJ McDaniels
2 2nd rounders, 2016 Knicks 2nd rounder, 2017 Portland 2nd rounder
2 future 1st rounders from Houston
150% rule

Rights to Monztrell/Decker
Throw ins if needed...

for

CA
and throw ins
Early
Ledo

Are you sure you are asking enough from Houston here? I mean I can't be sure if you are letting them off light. I mean 6 players ( What would end up being just about 5 starting players for the Knicks) and 4 draft choices, hey that's really letting the Rockets get over on the Knicks here.

You sure you wouldn't want to ask for more assets than that?

Absolutely sure?

***

Morey's history of personnel shows he acquires talent first and foremost and worries about fit later.

At one point, several years back, he had like 10 PFs on the roster in an offseason.

NBA Trade History generally shows that the single more talented player often yields the better return than the platter of smaller parts.

Houston wins this deal by a longshot.

We win too because we rid ourselves of Melo's aging ass -- get young assets and more cap space. Time to move on from Melo -- we've already seen that high ranked free agents aren't interested in joining forces with him in NY so we are currently on a treadmill to nowhere with Melo here.

If you can re-stock with DMO, Beverly, Decker/Jones, KJ and a pick or two -- plus more cap space --- I think you go for it.