TPercy wrote:

nixluva wrote:

TPercy wrote:

What is the point you're trying to make with this video?

People don't know what a pure triangle is, here it is.

By Phil Jackson and Tex Winter
Seven Principles of the Sound Offense

An effective offense, to my way of thinking, features the following dimensions.

1. Penetration. Players must penetrate the defense, and the best way to do this is the fast break, because basketball is a full-court game, from baseline to baseline.

2. Spacing. I am a fanatic about how players distribute themselves on the offensive end of the court. They must space themselves in a way that makes it most difficult to defend, trap, and help. Players must align a certain number of feet apart. In high school, I’d recommend 12 to 15 feet spacing, in college, 15 to18 feet, and in the NBA, 15 to 20 feet. Proper spacing not only exposes individual defensive players’ vulnerabilities, but also ensures that every time the defense tries to trap, an offensive player will be open.

3. Ball and player movements. Players must move, and must move the ball, with a purpose. Effective off-the-ball activity is much more important than most fans and players think because they’re so used to watching only the movement of the ball and the player in possession of it. But there is only one ball and there are five players, meaning most players will have the ball in their hands 20 percent or less of the time the team is in possession of the ball.

4. Options for the ball handler. The more options a smart player has to attack a defender, the more successful that offensive player will be. When teammates are all moving to positions to free themselves (or another teammate with a pick), the ball handler’s choices are vastly increased.

5. Offensive rebounding and defensive balance. On all shots we take, players must go strong for the rebound while retaining court balance and awareness to prevent the opponent’s fast break.

6. Versatile positioning. The offense must offer to any player the chance to fill any spot on the court, independent of the player’s role. All positions should be interchangeable.

7. Use individual talents. It only makes sense for an offense to allow a team to take advantage of the skill sets of its best players. This doesn’t preclude the focus on team play that is emphasized in the six other principles, but it does acknowledge that some individuals have certain types and degrees of talent, and an offense should accentuate those assets. Michael Jordan taught me this.

Finally, I want the offense to flow from rebound to fast break, to quick offense, to a system of offense. The defenses in the NBA are so good because the players are so big, quick, and well coached. Add the pressure that the 24-second clock rule applies to the offense to find a good shot, and the defense gets even better.

The triangle offense has proven most effective, even against such obstacles, when players commit to and execute the system. The offense hinges on players attending to minute details in executing not just plays but also the fundamentals underlying the plays. Once players have mastered the individual techniques required of their roles, we then integrate those individuals into a team. Once this is done, the foundation for a good offense is solidly in place. The team can then go on the court with the confidence and poise so essential to success.

This method of play is as old as basketball. The triangle set is adjustable to the personnel, but such adaptations can be made without altering the essence of the offense. The only necessary adjustment from one season to the next involves tailoring the series of options based on each individual’s talents.

nixluva wrote:This is a WAY overblown adjustment. The changes started last year and it doesn't mean they're moving away from the Triangle.

So Fish had his guards push the ball and look for early offense 1st. He also added a Drag Screen at the top if nothing was happening. All of this started last year and you can see that in how Shved was playing...The difference now is that the SL team is more aggressively doing the same things...In any event this is proof that Fish had already made these adjustments last year. They still run Triangle.

EXACTLY. to fisher's credit they started this adjustment last yr (when melo went down). i want to see what happens once melo arrives

TheGame wrote:

nixluva wrote:

TPercy wrote:

nixluva wrote:

TPercy wrote:

What is the point you're trying to make with this video?

People don't know what a pure triangle is, here it is.

That video is showing the basics of the Half Court part of offense but not the spirit of the offense. The spirit of the offense is more than the actual formations and actions they get into. This video is just a robotic execution of the options in the offense but it's not really the Triangle. It's a read and react offense that is supposed to be executed at speed. It's an offense that actually is a full court offense with a fast break component to it and not just the Half Court stuff we see in the video. The idea is to push the ball and look for early scoring opportunities and only settle into the Base Triangle if there's nothing there and if the defense is set.

By Phil Jackson and Tex Winter
Seven Principles of the Sound Offense

An effective offense, to my way of thinking, features the following dimensions.

1. Penetration. Players must penetrate the defense, and the best way to do this is the fast break, because basketball is a full-court game, from baseline to baseline.

2. Spacing. I am a fanatic about how players distribute themselves on the offensive end of the court. They must space themselves in a way that makes it most difficult to defend, trap, and help. Players must align a certain number of feet apart. In high school, I’d recommend 12 to 15 feet spacing, in college, 15 to18 feet, and in the NBA, 15 to 20 feet. Proper spacing not only exposes individual defensive players’ vulnerabilities, but also ensures that every time the defense tries to trap, an offensive player will be open.

3. Ball and player movements. Players must move, and must move the ball, with a purpose. Effective off-the-ball activity is much more important than most fans and players think because they’re so used to watching only the movement of the ball and the player in possession of it. But there is only one ball and there are five players, meaning most players will have the ball in their hands 20 percent or less of the time the team is in possession of the ball.

4. Options for the ball handler. The more options a smart player has to attack a defender, the more successful that offensive player will be. When teammates are all moving to positions to free themselves (or another teammate with a pick), the ball handler’s choices are vastly increased.

5. Offensive rebounding and defensive balance. On all shots we take, players must go strong for the rebound while retaining court balance and awareness to prevent the opponent’s fast break.

6. Versatile positioning. The offense must offer to any player the chance to fill any spot on the court, independent of the player’s role. All positions should be interchangeable.

7. Use individual talents. It only makes sense for an offense to allow a team to take advantage of the skill sets of its best players. This doesn’t preclude the focus on team play that is emphasized in the six other principles, but it does acknowledge that some individuals have certain types and degrees of talent, and an offense should accentuate those assets. Michael Jordan taught me this.

Finally, I want the offense to flow from rebound to fast break, to quick offense, to a system of offense. The defenses in the NBA are so good because the players are so big, quick, and well coached. Add the pressure that the 24-second clock rule applies to the offense to find a good shot, and the defense gets even better.

The triangle offense has proven most effective, even against such obstacles, when players commit to and execute the system. The offense hinges on players attending to minute details in executing not just plays but also the fundamentals underlying the plays. Once players have mastered the individual techniques required of their roles, we then integrate those individuals into a team. Once this is done, the foundation for a good offense is solidly in place. The team can then go on the court with the confidence and poise so essential to success.

This method of play is as old as basketball. The triangle set is adjustable to the personnel, but such adaptations can be made without altering the essence of the offense. The only necessary adjustment from one season to the next involves tailoring the series of options based on each individual’s talents.

http://www.humankinetics.com/excerpts/excerpts/learn-the-seven-dimensions-of-a-sound-offense

Nixluva, what you are saying is in every offense in the league. Everyone (or at least, every team with common sense) first looks to push the ball and then moves into the set offense if nothing is there. Fish is talking about adding more emphasis on PnR and screens in the first few seconds of the offense before actually moving to the set triangle offense. I agree that they starting doing this at the end of the last season.

I understand what Fish is doing. I'm just countering this notion that the Triangle is all about the Half Court stuff. It was never all about that. The flow of the offense is supposed to be a full court Offense as Phil stated. The flow was supposed to be Fast Break and then Quick offense (which is where the Drag screens come in) and then the Triangle system. My point is that this was ALWAYS the way it was supposed to be.

They wanted to play faster and less predictable last year, but our guards were the problem. JR/Sump were too dumb. Larkin was too small and scared. Jose too slow and un-athletic. THJ too 3pt happy. Schved was the only one who really got it and had the game to do what was asked. He wasn't scared to attack the basket. Now Jerian is an even more capable guard to do that stuff so they can do more of it.

knicks1248 wrote:

FireWoodson wrote:

nixluva wrote:The problem was that players were so focused on trying to run the Triangle Half Court set that they weren't playing basketball.

Perfectly said.

Breen and Frazier both said something like that the other day during Summer League play. The team was tight, moves were made tentatively, they were robotic due to the Triangle offense. Very interesting to hear a criticism of The Triangle. I thought MSG management was going to cut their mics off right there and fire them live on TV.

ppl started noticing this when we where 2-9 last season, even all the players say where thinking too much and not playing, JR, amre, daly. why did it take them a yr to finally realize.

They made changes to the offense long before this summer. You have to go back and look at game video and pay attention to the early part of each offensive possession. You'll see the same kinds of things being done last year using Drag Screens and more PnR as the SL team is doing now. Phil has gone out and brought in players who can do those things at a high level so we should see the same things in the regular season.