TripleThreat wrote:

crzymdups wrote:Basically, I think Monroe's offense in the post in the Triangle would be a major plus. But if we get him, we have to figure out how to build a defensive squad with he and Melo on the front line.

The answer is, no offense, that you don't.

Monroe is a defensive liability. Some folks want to point out some individual things he does well as if it shades over the aggregate, which it does not (it's like saying a 55 year old sagging 375 pound woman with bad skin and no teeth, cross eyed and covered in warts and smells like Campbells Cheese Soup is beautiful because she has nice hair, if it wasn't in greasy clumps)

Monroe was AVAILABLE FOR A REASON. Teams, rational teams, do not let young NBA caliber center types walk away for nothing without a reason. Monroe creates more questions than answers on most NBA front lines.

In order to defend the rim, you need another player, which means more money spent ( 10-12 million a year at about market cost) since the Knicks didn't draft a pivot that will help this year. They can get someone a little cheaper but far more inconsistent in the 6-7 million range, but pivots who can play some semblance of defense don't come cheap. This is on top of the maxed out 15 million a year Monroe will want.

Taking in Monroe and hiding his defensive flaws caps out the Knicks. And as a bonus, it pushes Melo onto the wing, where he has no business even trying there defensively.

There is no defensive scenario with Melo and Monroe that makes the Knicks competitive in live actual NBA games against real NBA competition once Stein went off the board and wasn't a Knick. And even that would be a huge stretch defensively.

FIT MATTERS.

Which is why Monroe is AVAILABLE IN THE FIRST PLACE. He is a POOR FIT FOR MOST NBA TEAMS who actually want to win basketball games.

As for Aminu, he thrived under Rick Carlisle after finally getting into his head that he should play to his limitations, not his perceived draft ceiling, which was long ago. In a small ball environment, he can defend four positions, which is rare in the NBA. With length and a plus rebounder and good athleticism to be effective in transition. He will however muck up any floor spacing you have.

Aminu won't come cheap. He won't command max money, but he rebuilt his value.

Another issue is Carlisle and Zeke hate each other. Zeke back with the Knicks mean pressure on Dolan and the front office not to sign anyone who will get tons of compliments about Carlisle's coaching all year long ( the guy is just a rock solid elite coach who milks the best out of his players)

Melo and Monroe, there is no fix for that pairing and having any hope to have a passable NBA defense. They create too many tradeoffs and force more questions than answers. Any Melo and Monroe pairing will mean the Knicks will get firebombed each night on defense. They will be torn up every single night.

Triple: Agreed I want no part of Monroe. Don't like his game at all.

But your reaching on the Zeke/Carlisle stuff. I think with Porzingis being taken we can sigh a bit that Zeke isn't as influential as we may have assumed when he was invited back in. I don't see avoiding a guy like Aminu just because he played well with the Mavs. Thats quite a stretch.

TripleThreat wrote:

crzymdups wrote:Basically, I think Monroe's offense in the post in the Triangle would be a major plus. But if we get him, we have to figure out how to build a defensive squad with he and Melo on the front line.

The answer is, no offense, that you don't.

Monroe is a defensive liability. Some folks want to point out some individual things he does well as if it shades over the aggregate, which it does not (it's like saying a 55 year old sagging 375 pound woman with bad skin and no teeth, cross eyed and covered in warts and smells like Campbells Cheese Soup is beautiful because she has nice hair, if it wasn't in greasy clumps)

Monroe was AVAILABLE FOR A REASON. Teams, rational teams, do not let young NBA caliber center types walk away for nothing without a reason. Monroe creates more questions than answers on most NBA front lines.

In order to defend the rim, you need another player, which means more money spent ( 10-12 million a year at about market cost) since the Knicks didn't draft a pivot that will help this year. They can get someone a little cheaper but far more inconsistent in the 6-7 million range, but pivots who can play some semblance of defense don't come cheap. This is on top of the maxed out 15 million a year Monroe will want.

Taking in Monroe and hiding his defensive flaws caps out the Knicks. And as a bonus, it pushes Melo onto the wing, where he has no business even trying there defensively.

There is no defensive scenario with Melo and Monroe that makes the Knicks competitive in live actual NBA games against real NBA competition once Stein went off the board and wasn't a Knick. And even that would be a huge stretch defensively.

FIT MATTERS.

Which is why Monroe is AVAILABLE IN THE FIRST PLACE. He is a POOR FIT FOR MOST NBA TEAMS who actually want to win basketball games.

As for Aminu, he thrived under Rick Carlisle after finally getting into his head that he should play to his limitations, not his perceived draft ceiling, which was long ago. In a small ball environment, he can defend four positions, which is rare in the NBA. With length and a plus rebounder and good athleticism to be effective in transition. He will however muck up any floor spacing you have.

Aminu won't come cheap. He won't command max money, but he rebuilt his value.

Another issue is Carlisle and Zeke hate each other. Zeke back with the Knicks mean pressure on Dolan and the front office not to sign anyone who will get tons of compliments about Carlisle's coaching all year long ( the guy is just a rock solid elite coach who milks the best out of his players)

Melo and Monroe, there is no fix for that pairing and having any hope to have a passable NBA defense. They create too many tradeoffs and force more questions than answers. Any Melo and Monroe pairing will mean the Knicks will get firebombed each night on defense. They will be torn up every single night.

Totally agree, this Monroe idea needs to be quashed.

Ajinca can move, shoot, post, pass & block shots. He is a really good fit. He should be the target, even if he doesn't turn into a stud his skill set would make a great rotation player in the tri. Maybe split time with Porsingis and Herman... down the road.

newyorknewyork wrote:I was watching Alexis Ajinca scouting report from 2013. And the guy is perfect for the triangle. Not only that but him and Porzingis would be a twin towers combo of length, mobility and skill. 7'1 F, 7'6 wingspan, 7'2 C 7'8 wingspan. Add in Aminu as well 6'10 F 7'3 wingspan.

Ajinca can move, shoot, post, pass & block shots. He is a really good fit. He should be the target, even if he doesn't turn into a stud his skill set would make a great rotation player in the tri. Maybe split time with Porsingis and Herman... down the road.

Definitely agree on Ajinca--I think he'd fit in great here. He's actually my 2nd big FA target right after Monroe.. I was reading somewhere today that Robin Lopez might command $9mm a year. That's nuts -- someone else can have him for that money. I was never really interested in him anyway, even before I read that...Ajinca's bigger, the same age and has much greater skill and upside. I think Ajinca could be had for $5mm a year, maybe less. Then we turn around and sign Jordan Bachynski for the minimum -- there's your Robin Lopez right there. I think JB could be even better than Lopez to be honest...I really hope Phil considers Ajinca. He'd be my starting 5 with Monroe at the 4, Melo 3 then I'd come off the bench with KP along with a bunch of role-playing big men I know we could get cheap to rebound, protect the rim, clog the lane, do the dirty work, supply a little more scoring up front, improve depth, etc.. That's how I'd look to put together this frontcourt.

TripleThreat wrote:

Finestrg wrote:I still feel pretty good about Monroe coming here. I can figure out a way to cover Monroe's shortcomings -- first off, I'd want the guy camped out down low. I wouldn't need him to step out and launch 20 footers. We already have plenty of guys for that--Melo, KP, our guards, etc.. We don't need him stepping out too far. Second, yeah he's not a real rim protector but so what? Was Karl Malone? LaMarcus Aldridge? Tyson Chandler? What about Jahlil Okafor--not only is he not a great shot-blocker, he's also not a guy that's gonna step out and can 18-20 footers. I look at Monroe the exact same way I look at Okafor. Let the man do what he does well and find other ways to cover the shortcomings.. There's a whole bunch of players I'd like to see us go after for rim protection (Alexis Ajinca could supply some shot-blocking but he's also a very good offensive player--a much better buy over Robin Lopez if you ask me), we can also add guys like Jordan Backynski, Khem Birch, Maurice N'Dour, Eric Griffin, Thanasis, retain Cole Aldrich -- these guys could all help defend the tin and cover Monroe and we wouldn't have to overpay any of them. Why overpay someone like Robin Lopez or Kosta Koufos? DeAndre Jordan I could see going after a little more -- the man is the best rebounder in the game and one of the better shot-blockers around--but even with Jordan, I'd argue we could add Monroe along with a few cost-effective low grade signings and come damn close to Jordan's production, maybe even exceed it. Save some much needed cap room in the process as well..

Greg Monroe doesn't have a long range shot. You wouldn't need him ranging out on the perimeter because no team would use him as such.

The only other way to overcome Monroe's shortcomings is to SPEND MORE MONEY.

I'm not sure what about all this so complex for you pro Monroe people.

Greg Monroe is going to see the MAX. He is AVAILABLE FOR THE EXPRESS REASON DETROIT DID NOT WANT TO GIVE HIM THE MAX AND HE CLEARLY SEEKS IT.

If you pay Monroe 15 million a year, to overcome his shortcomings, you'll need to spend about 10-12 million a year for a reliable center who can play defense.

Add it up. ADD IT UP. What is so complex about all this? ADD IT UP. 15 + 10 or 12 means the Knicks are just about capped out. Where is the help for the rest of the roster then? It still doesn't wipe away the issue of asking Melo to play defense on the wing, where he will get killed night after night.

Many of you guys are relying on spending more money than the Knicks will have available in cap space.

Your solution would seem to be to attempt to sign a player the Knicks won't get, or some low end D League or fringe roster guy to hold down the middle. If said players could do that, they wouldn't be D League fodder or fringe roster guys in the first place.

You are not going to find a consistent NBA grade starting caliber center with the ability to play defense and have enough passable offense to not be exploited as a "cost effective low grade signing" The market forces in the NBA don't work like that. Big men get paid, even ones with flaws. You are not going to get three fringe roster guys or D League fodder guys, split up the minutes and get a DeAndre Jordan's impact or production in the aggregate. If this was possible then Jordan wouldn't make the money he was and does make and every team would be piecemealing their roster for pivot play.

Was Tyson Chandler a rim protector? Is Tyson Chandler a rim protector and plus defender? He won DPOY. He anchored the defense for a title winning team.

You have no idea what you are talking about. No offense ( but you'll take it anyway, so I guess there's not point to saying no offense, but you've taken shots at me before, so you can go ahead and pound sand ), but you really have no idea what you are talking about. Nothing you say makes sense against actual NBA market forces at work or how players are valued or what kind of defense is needed to actually put a functional NBA team on the floor each night.

Pro Monroe folks - Sign him and ... uh.. the team will figure the rest out later!

That's like saying, the best way to deal with the problem of you smoking crack is to find a really good place for rehab.

No, the best thing to do is not smoke crack in the first place.

The best thing to do isn't to look at two or three complicated and costly workarounds for Monroe's limitations. The best thing to do IS TO NOT SIGN HIM IN THE FIRST PLACE BASED ON HIS LIMITATIONS, WHICH IS WHY HE'S AVAILABLE IN THE FIRST PLACE.

It's not like Detroit is run by a bunch of idiots. Greg Monroe IS AVAILABLE FOR A REASON. There is a reason why DOZENS OF NBA TEAMS ARE NOT IN LINE BEGGING TO GIVE HIM THE MAX TO GO PLAY FOR THEM.

The draft is OVER. The Knicks need not just one center, but several. There is a finite amount of cap space to use. SIGNING A PLAYER WHO WILL ASK FOR 15 MILLION A YEAR AND WILL REQUIRE YOU SPEND EVEN MORE TO COVER HIS LIMITATIONS IS NOT A SOUND WAY TO BUILD A TEAM.

ALL THE GUYS SOME OF YOU THINK THE KNICKS WILL OR CAN SIGN, IF THE MONEY IS ABOUT EQUAL, THEY AREN'T PLAYING FOR THE KNICKS. THEY ARE GOING TO PLAY FOR A TEAM WHO CAN PAY THEM AND GIVE THEM A CHANCE TO WIN GAMES. THE KNICKS ARE ONLY CONTENDERS FOR THOSE PLAYERS IF THEY OVERPAY AND THEY DON"T HAVE ENOUGH CAP TO OVERPAY AND FILL OUT THE REST OF THEIR ROSTER.

And adding Monroe, plus cap space to get a real center anyway, plus Melo, how is that going to do anything positive for Zinger's development? Zinger wasn't the 4th pick in the draft not to play.

I just have to shake my damn head here. The fandom for the Knicks just watched years of too many PFs who can't defend litter the roster and drag the team down, and some of you believe the best thing to do is KEEP OVERPAYING PFS WHO CAN'T DEFEND TO KEEP LITTERING THE ROSTER.

Why so much emphasis on 4-5? The nba game is being built on speed shooting ability penetration and passing. Perimeter defense is the new priority imho. You need smaller and / or faster shot blockers interior defenders. That's why guys like Asik Rlopez even Bogut became almost unusable as the season went on. The reality there are very few elite post scorers and teams have a higher usage at the3 point line and as the tempo gets faster these older slower interior 7 footers have much less value.

I always look at the spurs as a benchmark. Look at the player they drafted and signed this off season Multinov and Atkins. FASTER more athletic interior players guys who can guard multiple positions. And can also help out on the perimeter because they have the necessary speed.

The Knicks to me blew opportunity to help their perimeter d by NOT drafting Andersen and Powell 19+35 and picking up Atkins Udfa. Which player on the Knicks guard Leonard butler LeBron Middleton we dont have that guy and we did get smaller drafting Grant even though Hardaway was not a good defender. I'm just surprised with two great moves to get picks 19+35picks by the way you said were not attainable yet we drop the ball when looking how the nab games is player with two huge athletes on the wing who could've helped shut down defenses. Andersen is your modern day Artest and Powell looks like a Tony Allen clone with a better offensive game. I like pick 4 pick 19 with Grant the more I think what we passed on well it's not a terrible avenue it just wasn't the best one. You're right that we need to compensate for melo on d but you're wrong about where the compensation need to come from

fishmike wrote:We have Thanasis and Early... are we going to see what they can bring or spend FA on redundant guys? We need bigs

As much as i wanted Aminu for 2 yrs I don't think the knicks should use cap space on him unless it's the room exception and hopefully that's Ajinca money (doubtful)

mreinman wrote:

Finestrg wrote:

crzymdups wrote:I'm sort of more resigned to the idea of Monroe than excited about him.

My ideal free agency would DeAndre Jordan and Danny Green. Well. Ideal ideal would be Marc Gasol and Danny Green.

But I think Monroe fits more in the mold of very promising player who would do well in the Triangle and is actually a possibility to come here.

Monroe's already producing at a 16/10 level taking only 12.5 shots a game. LaMarcus Aldridge, by comparison, takes 20 shots a game. With just a few more shot attempts a game along with a few more mins, I think we're looking at a 20/12 PF who's just entering his prime. And we could get him for the reduced max, right around $15mm to start. Greg Monroe is real good value the more I think about him. I can't for the life of me see giving the past-his-prime David West any kind of significant money. What's that guy supposed to do for us? We're trying to build a team here...Monroe is said to be looking for a team that's ready to win now but I think as soon as Phil talks to him, he could get him interested in playing here. Having Melo at the meeting when Monroe comes for a visit will be imperative -- he really needs to be there.

I still feel pretty good about Monroe coming here. I can figure out a way to cover Monroe's shortcomings -- first off, I'd want the guy camped out down low. I wouldn't need him to step out and launch 20 footers. We already have plenty of guys for that--Melo, KP, our guards, etc.. We don't need him stepping out too far. Second, yeah he's not a real rim protector but so what? Was Karl Malone? LaMarcus Aldridge? Tyson Chandler? What about Jahlil Okafor--not only is he not a great shot-blocker, he's also not a guy that's gonna step out and can 18-20 footers. I look at Monroe the exact same way I look at Okafor. Let the man do what he does well and find other ways to cover the shortcomings.. There's a whole bunch of players I'd like to see us go after for rim protection (Alexis Ajinca could supply some shot-blocking but he's also a very good offensive player--a much better buy over Robin Lopez if you ask me), we can also add guys like Jordan Backynski, Khem Birch, Maurice N'Dour, Eric Griffin, Thanasis, retain Cole Aldrich -- these guys could all help defend the tin and cover Monroe and we wouldn't have to overpay any of them. Why overpay someone like Robin Lopez or Kosta Koufos? DeAndre Jordan I could see going after a little more -- the man is the best rebounder in the game and one of the better shot-blockers around--but even with Jordan, I'd argue we could add Monroe along with a few cost-effective low grade signings and come damn close to Jordan's production, maybe even exceed it. Save some much needed cap room in the process as well..

Karl Malone was not a good rim protector?? he was 1st team all defense 4 times!!

Chandler was DPOY ...

Should've said shot-blocker. Hope that clarifies..

Again, who was the shot blocker on GS in the finals?
The shot blocking Center that are not scoring threats could be extinct
He is a LEGIT GOTO OPTION that is YOUNG and has prepared himself in The Triangle, showcasing his passing ability when Josh Smith was cutt
We just need shooters to spread him out, with PG's to could create for him, but we can run an OFFENSE THROUGH HIM
He is not Jordan or Drummond but at Center he isn't that bad of a defender, he can hold his own and rebound, just don't expect him to be a HELP DEFENDER like Jordan either

IF every other position can DEFEND, the player that is the weakest OFF player gets to cheat, *which was Delly and then Iman SHumpert/JR SMith as they struggled*
The players that need help should force the defender to those guys every now and then and play them by position....
Which is why getting guys like Aminu/Wesley Johnson or paying for Danny Green/Wesley Matthews, possibly trades for James Johnson, Jerami Grant/Jakarr Sampson...

We could go for Jordan or Monroe, if they take slightly less or/and stretch Calderon or give assets to trade him, possibly both with the FULL MLE with Cole Aldrich/Acey's early bird rights/bird rights
If Jordan forces a trade can we force them to trade with us?

Jordan's impact could be greater as he has the ability to defend 5 positions and anchor our entire DEF at 26 years of age....

Obviously CA has to be able to defend a position by himself, whether SF or PF if we get Monroe to play Center...

I think Thanasis is going to be a lockdown defender if given time to develop, with a mentor/veteran that could play with him along with a Deandre Jordan patrolling the paint...
He probably will foul prone and go for majority of pump fakes but he will have to get PT to learn, hopefully by year 2 or halfway through the year he can improve much...