nixluva wrote:

FistOfOakley wrote:it just seemed like the knicks have certain types of players that they like and i'm pretty sure these guys are gaines' signature...

thanasis, labeyrie, guillermo and porzingis are in one mold... and early, galloway and grant are in another...

i wasn't a big fan of any of those picks but we'll see if any pan out or not... i am not too optimistic... it's quite possible that none of them do anything in this league...

I think you are seriously underestimating the knowledge about the needs of this system that Phil and Gaines have. If you spent 20+ years perfecting the needs of a system don't you think you'd have a pretty clear idea of what kind of players you need in order to make the system work at it's best?

Gaines was Jerry Krause’s right-hand man as a Bulls scout when Jackson coached there. Gaines has been hanging around the team for several days and with the front-office staff, including Mark Warkentien, Mark Hughes and Allan Houston.

“Phil’s not comfortable with a lot of people but he’s very comfortable with him,’’ the source said of Gaines. “There’s some good people in the front office and I don’t think he’s intending to clean house.’’’

i may be underestimating.. look i can be completely wrong... but i trust my eyes and my own judgment and all those picks left scratching my head a bit... and i do my best to understand them and to me there were much better options available...

foosballnick wrote:

FistOfOakley wrote:it just seemed like the knicks have certain types of players that they like and i'm pretty sure these guys are gaines' signature...

thanasis, labeyrie, guillermo and porzingis are in one mold... and early, galloway and grant are in another...

i wasn't a big fan of any of those picks but we'll see if any pan out or not... i am not too optimistic... it's quite possible that none of them do anything in this league...

Couple thoughts.......

1) Not sure what type of signature guys you are expecting to come out of the 2nd Round and D-League.
2) Isn't it a bit early to be down on Thanisis, Labeyrie, Porzingis and Grant without even seeing them play in the NBA?
3) Galloway seems like a solid role player out of the D-League - not sure how you can be down on him especially given his really cheap contract
4) I am not enamored with Early either (so far) - however he does not seem in the same mold galloway and grant as you indicated. Gallow and Grant are measured as good on the ball defenders and fairly heady offensive players - Early does not seem like this type of player (at least so far).

1)It's the not the type of signature guys i'm talking about... it's the type of guys that have a good chance at success..
2)i'm not dooming those guys by any stretch.. esp porzingis and grant... but to me there were far better risks to take...
3)galloway seems ok.. i like him the most and i actually think he would've been fine starting...
4)early was an older prospect also and it's sort of tough to explain but their all similar in between the ears.... and they all had athleticism questions coming into the league...

point being.. the knicks MO so far in the phil jackson era is to take 'low risks' in experienced college guys who are smart but are not athletic... or take huge risks with foreign prospects that don't quite know the game yet regardless of their age... and we went the latter route on the most important pick we'll have in awhile...

i just don't see the reasoning behind any of it and time will tell who was right...

FistOfOakley wrote:

foosballnick wrote:

FistOfOakley wrote:it just seemed like the knicks have certain types of players that they like and i'm pretty sure these guys are gaines' signature...

thanasis, labeyrie, guillermo and porzingis are in one mold... and early, galloway and grant are in another...

i wasn't a big fan of any of those picks but we'll see if any pan out or not... i am not too optimistic... it's quite possible that none of them do anything in this league...

Couple thoughts.......

1) Not sure what type of signature guys you are expecting to come out of the 2nd Round and D-League.
2) Isn't it a bit early to be down on Thanisis, Labeyrie, Porzingis and Grant without even seeing them play in the NBA?
3) Galloway seems like a solid role player out of the D-League - not sure how you can be down on him especially given his really cheap contract
4) I am not enamored with Early either (so far) - however he does not seem in the same mold galloway and grant as you indicated. Gallow and Grant are measured as good on the ball defenders and fairly heady offensive players - Early does not seem like this type of player (at least so far).

1)It's the not the type of signature guys i'm talking about... it's the type of guys that have a good chance at success..
2)i'm not dooming those guys by any stretch.. esp porzingis and grant... but to me there were far better risks to take...
3)galloway seems ok.. i like him the most and i actually think he would've been fine starting...
4)early was an older prospect also and it's sort of tough to explain but their all similar in between the ears.... and they all had athleticism questions coming into the league...

point being.. the knicks MO so far in the phil jackson era is to take 'low risks' in experienced college guys who are smart but are not athletic... or take huge risks with foreign prospects that don't quite know the game yet regardless of their age... and we went the latter route on the most important pick we'll have in awhile...

i just don't see the reasoning behind any of it and time will tell who was right...

Understand. I guess I don't really look at 2nd Rounders and D-League guys as high risks.....especially when you have no high draft choices (last year) and no cap room (last year as well). In other words, you look to find guys and take what you can get who will help the future.

This year is a different story of course.....however I think the misnomer is that pretty much beyond Russel and Towns, all these guys have upside risk whether is be a foreign league (KP, Mudaiy), outside offensive game (Winslow, OK4), defensive specialist (WCS) etc. I don't think any of these 19-21 year old kids really know the game yet and all have some developing and proving to do.

FistOfOakley wrote:they're not perfectly similar... it's tough to explain... all those guys have issues finishing at the rim.... they all shoot kinda well.. they all had decent defensive reps... they're all ok athletes but not really by nba standards...

and the overarching theme was that they were all sort of suspect in terms of their actual stats... which is why i'm not too optimistic about any of them... but i mean i've been wrong before just like anyone else...

there's going to be a very good chance that we're going to look back on these drafts and regret passing on guys like clarkson, winslow and delon wright... i might be wrong but i've been doing this a long time too and usually things don't end well with guys like we've drafted...

Well Grant shot 73% from the rim last season and the year before that he was on his way to a monster year and would have probably been a top ten pick in last year's class.

Clarkson and Wright have similar flaws as you described for the Knicks picks. They both entered the league as older players. I would have been okay with Wright but I can understand if a team does not trust his shooting stroke and he is not the best finisher. Also, both players are slightly above avg athletes like Gallo and Grant. To me Grant is like a stouter version of Clarkson and Wright, he has Clarkson scoring and finsihing ability combined with Wright's passing.

I do agree with you on Early though.

FistOfOakley wrote:i happen to disagree... winslow and russell didn't have too many questions coming in.. they were already playing at a high level compared to their age against decent competition...

that doesn't mean they're not going to bust but if you have no idea how to quantify the risk that you're taking you're going to think taking raw 7ft centers are worthy gambles like the sonics used to do year after year in the 90s... and all of a sudden you got nothing out of 5 drafts...

these guys havent played and porzingis might turn out pretty good and i'm just saying the risk was very high when there were pretty good players still available... if winslow makes any amount of all star teams it's going to make us look pretty dumb unless porzingis really does turn into the next dirk...

The said can be same for Porzingis with the added bonus that he played against tougher competition. The question marks around Winslow is positional size(sf) and is his stroke true.

foosballnick wrote:

holfresh wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

holfresh wrote:

fishmike wrote:

holfresh wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:Isola used the news that Gaines had called drafting Kristaps a once in a lifetime opportunity to go at Phil again. He said Phil was spreading the blame if Kristaps didn't workout. He also said that Phil neglected to give Knicks European scout Kevin Wilson credit.

Phil putting a lot of pressure on this kid to save the franchise..

here's the game your playing... what negativity can I find from this.

Phil's giving credit? Well that can be used to deflect blame.
Melo goes on social media? Must be damage control.

Hey Holfresh Isola ... where did Phil say this kid saving the franchise? Where? Or would it fair to say that's a sentence with 2% truth your going to be regurgitating over and over again and in play fashion "a lot of people are saying this kid is a franchise savior... lots of pressure."

Easy to see how this works.

Boy... I can see your really rooting hard for things to go right (that's sarcasm)

Come on dude..How long have we engaged is these types of discussions..You don't have to decipher my true meaning, just ask..Have I ever shy away from not expressing exactly what's on my mind??...Calling the kid a "once in a lifetime player" doesn't do exactly that???

And now you claim to know that I'm rooting for the Knicks to fail?????

"When someone says to me [that] this is a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity, I have to be alert," Jackson said of what Knicks basketball adviser Clarence Gaines Jr. told him and how Porzingis eventually became a Knick. "And [I have to] consider that after he's been in this business for as long as he has, I think he has as good of an eye as he has on talent."

http://espn.go.com/nba/draft2015/story/_/id/13154674/phil-jackson-defends-new-york-knicks-first-round-selection-kristaps-porzingis
That was what was said but it was defending the pick not putting pressure on Kristaps.

OK..Then let's watch the media over the next few years rehash this comment from Phil...You think the media cares about context when labels like that are spit out...Phil said he did a great job getting rid of salaries..What did the media hear???

Are you accountable for anything that YOU say on these boards? For instance comparing KP to Shawn Bradley. Much like you derive a hidden negative connotation & meaning behind everything that Phil says.....one could conclude based on your comments that you are biased and prejudiced against this kid solely because he is a tall white euro.

holfresh wrote:Phil slipped and said we will see in five years then said one year later in the interview..I see Shawn Bradley..Too skinny to man the middle..

It's very interesting the way you phased that sentence..Very interesting...Strength wise, he isn't ready to play in the NBA..Well he is weak and needs to develop his strength..He admitted as much..Phil admitted as much...Zinger said he got stronger from the time he finished playing in Europe to the workouts..I would have much preferred if we drafted a more NBA ready player and not some one for 3 or 4 years down the road..I think I have said that a few times...But let's get back to you statement..It's interesting how u used the word bias and prejudice...Those terms are used as a broad brush towards the masses not individuals..But u slickly stuck it in there to insinuate I'm a racist for not agreeing with the pick...Slick...By the way..My pops is white...

foosballnick wrote:

FistOfOakley wrote:they're not perfectly similar... it's tough to explain... all those guys have issues finishing at the rim.... they all shoot kinda well.. they all had decent defensive reps... they're all ok athletes but not really by nba standards...

and the overarching theme was that they were all sort of suspect in terms of their actual stats... which is why i'm not too optimistic about any of them... but i mean i've been wrong before just like anyone else...

there's going to be a very good chance that we're going to look back on these drafts and regret passing on guys like clarkson, winslow and delon wright... i might be wrong but i've been doing this a long time too and usually things don't end well with guys like we've drafted...

Many teams passed on Deion Wright...there will be guys in every draft that become very good players even though they were picked later in the first round. I'm not particularly high on Winslow as others seem to be here. His major advantage in the NCAA was strength....which will not be as big of an advantage in the NBA. He is relatively small to be a star NBA wing, and not super athletic as a star NBA #2. He played bully ball against weaker opponents relatively well on offense with his back to the basket in ISO sets for Duke. He is a good passer with good court awareness and a good defender.....but is not a particularly good slasher or finisher. Could be wrong, just don't see him as a future star. Guess we will find out in the coming years.

just because teams passed on a player doesn't mean they made the right decision or have the right methodology... looking at the results and backward rationalizing is not a good way to make an argument...