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ESPN New Projections for Boom/Bust
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FistOfOakley
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6/19/2015  4:17 PM
i think ppl underestimate winslow's upside... he probably won't be harden but he'll probably end up being a good bit better than wesley matthews...
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Knixkik
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6/19/2015  4:20 PM
technomaster wrote:My thoughts:

Russell: I just have this little worry that he could also end up like Jamal Crawford (is that disappointing?) or Javaris Crittenton (ie - when he makes it to the NBA, it just doesn't click). I'm not sure I'd buy he's the next Steph Curry, because frankly there are no other players quite like Curry. He has a lot of tricks and countermoves in his game - and man, I've never seen another guy be allowed to shoot the crazy shots he takes.

Justise: if he maxed out as Jerry Stackhouse or Wes Matthews - is that a bad thing?

KAT: I'm pretty worried about how he projects as a pro. Maybe a Patrick Ewing, Marcus Camby, or Pau Gasol? He's not quick like Anthony Davis or KG. I almost see him being a lot like Al Jefferson even though that's who most folks compare Okafor to). Do people see Tim Duncan in him? We just never really saw KAT dominate so it's tough to say what anyone will get out of him.

I'm extremely afraid of Stanley Johnson - surprised he doesn't have a higher bust factor. Guys like Derrick Williams and Marvin Williams come to mind. Maybe even CJ Leslie (that guy is still only 23 if you can believe it)! Jeff Green?


Regarding the review of Drummond - wow. A bit undervalued in that draft class He's an absolute beast in the NBA - like a Howard/Ben Wallace hybrid.


To be Russell's downside is Crawford, although he's probably a better shooter and passer already. Upside is Curry or Harden, so i can definitely see why there is a range in his potential. He could go either way, and i'm not sure what the middle ground for him really is.

Winslow has a pretty limited range/variance. He's likely in between Iguodala and MKG with a small chance he develops into a Leonard or Butler. But a starter on a good team and a quality 2-way player nonetheless.

KAT reminds me of a longer Al Horford.

I am interested why they don't view Okafor as having a lot of star potential. Maybe they just see him as a Al Jefferson or Brook Lopez, but his weaknesses limit his true star potential.

crzymdups
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6/19/2015  4:22 PM
FistOfOakley wrote:i think ppl underestimate winslow's upside... he probably won't be harden but he'll probably end up being a good bit better than wesley matthews...

Yeah, I see Winslow as an Iguodala type. Heady competitor with real good athleticism, maybe just a hair short of truly elite athleticism.

I could see Winslow being a 20ppg 7rpg 4apg type in the NBA.

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Knixkik
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6/19/2015  4:28 PM
crzymdups wrote:
FistOfOakley wrote:i think ppl underestimate winslow's upside... he probably won't be harden but he'll probably end up being a good bit better than wesley matthews...

Yeah, I see Winslow as an Iguodala type. Heady competitor with real good athleticism, maybe just a hair short of truly elite athleticism.

I could see Winslow being a 20ppg 7rpg 4apg type in the NBA.

Absolutely see Iguodala as a great comparison. I think his downside is Kidd-Gilchrist with a better shooting touch. Regardless, i don't see how he isn't a starter in the league from day one. He should be an elite defender in his career and develop into an above average offensive player. Those numbers are definitely possible for him.

crzymdups
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6/19/2015  4:38 PM
Here's the whole chart, from five thirty eight:

http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/projecting-the-top-50-players-in-the-2015-nba-draft-class/

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FistOfOakley
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6/19/2015  4:41 PM
i think jason richardson is a good comp... not the high flyer that jrich was... but he plays a lot smarter so i think they should even out in terms of production with slightly less scoring from winslow...
crzymdups
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6/19/2015  4:45 PM
As projection tools go, this one seems pretty interesting and it's got a lot of history so you can see how it rated past draft classes:

http://nyloncalculus.com/stats/layne-vashros-draft-projection-tools/

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Knixkik
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6/19/2015  4:48 PM
FistOfOakley wrote:i think jason richardson is a good comp... not the high flyer that jrich was... but he plays a lot smarter so i think they should even out in terms of production with slightly less scoring from winslow...

Richardson wasn't known as a great defender though. Winslow's calling card first and foremost will be versatile defender. He should bring what we saw from guys like Draymond Green, Iguodala, and Carroll in thew pl. That is where is value is in the league from the beginning.
crzymdups
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6/19/2015  4:50 PM
Knixkik wrote:
FistOfOakley wrote:i think jason richardson is a good comp... not the high flyer that jrich was... but he plays a lot smarter so i think they should even out in terms of production with slightly less scoring from winslow...

Richardson wasn't known as a great defender though. Winslow's calling card first and foremost will be versatile defender. He should bring what we saw from guys like Draymond Green, Iguodala, and Carroll in thew pl. That is where is value is in the league from the beginning.

I agree... my only issue with taking Winslow is that I think you can sort of find a reasonable comp in FA for that position relatively easily. Unless you think Winslow is just a special competitor and special talent at that position and truly BPA - I think you can reproduce his production in FA...

But he's the guy I'd feel most worried about passing on. Well, I go back and forth between being worried about passing on Stein, Mudiay and/or Winslow. I wish the league would let us take all three!

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Knixkik
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6/19/2015  4:55 PM
crzymdups wrote:
Knixkik wrote:
FistOfOakley wrote:i think jason richardson is a good comp... not the high flyer that jrich was... but he plays a lot smarter so i think they should even out in terms of production with slightly less scoring from winslow...

Richardson wasn't known as a great defender though. Winslow's calling card first and foremost will be versatile defender. He should bring what we saw from guys like Draymond Green, Iguodala, and Carroll in thew pl. That is where is value is in the league from the beginning.

I agree... my only issue with taking Winslow is that I think you can sort of find a reasonable comp in FA for that position relatively easily. Unless you think Winslow is just a special competitor and special talent at that position and truly BPA - I think you can reproduce his production in FA...

But he's the guy I'd feel most worried about passing on. Well, I go back and forth between being worried about passing on Stein, Mudiay and/or Winslow. I wish the league would let us take all three!


Yeah guys like Matthews, Carroll, and Danny Green are available as free agents. But Winslow is very versatile. We can play him at the 2 or 3 with Melo at the 3 or 4. Or sign a guy like Carroll too and play Winslow at the 2, Carroll at the 3, and Melo at the 4. This is the type of versatility we need to cause mismatch problems. We need guys who can defend multiple positions and do a little bit of everything.
FistOfOakley
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6/19/2015  4:55 PM    LAST EDITED: 6/19/2015  5:01 PM
yeah.. there's not a perfect comp for him.... i was referring to the level of production... he's below the harden/vince carter/durant level of player obviously...

he's right around caron butler/jason richardson territory though... he's slightly better than them coming out... that's a pretty good secondary player especially if he can keep his health throughout his career..

crzymdups
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6/19/2015  4:58 PM
FistOfOakley wrote:yeah.. there's not a perfect comp for him.... i was referring to the level of production... he's below the harden/vince carter/durant level of player obviously...

he's right around caron butler/jason richardson territory though... he's slightly better than them coming out... that's a pretty good secondary player especially if he can keep his healthy throughout his career..

people hate when I say this, but he really reminds me of a young Richard Jefferson. RJ had a few years of averaging 22ppg 6rpg 5apg and was a very good defender...

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FistOfOakley
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6/19/2015  5:06 PM
rj was much more of a true sf but the comp is there...

the reason i like jason richardson is that they measured about the same... winslow a bit bigger... and they had the same questions coming into the league on offense... jrich did fine offensively but he wasn't the greatest defender.. winslow's better in that regard...

the scouting report even sounds similar...

http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Jason-Richardson-4081/

meloshouldgo
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6/19/2015  6:30 PM
Knixkik wrote:College Players In 2015 NBA Draft Class By Projected SPM
PLAYER	POSITION	PROJECTED SPM SUPERSTAR	STARTER ROLE PLAYER BUST
Karl-Anthony Towns 1.03 13.5% 42.7% 16.3% 27.5%
Justise Winslow SF 0.88 8.4% 51.1% 17.7% 22.9%
Stanley Johnson SF 0.68 6.8% 42.4% 27.9% 23.0%
Jahlil Okafor C 0.52 5.9% 41.0% 23.6% 29.6%
D`Angelo Russell 0.51 15.2% 34.2% 9.7% 40.9%

Interesting take by ESPN on the boom or bust projections. Russell seems like the biggest wild card and Winslow seems like the safest pick based on this model. Highest likelihood of being a starter, and lowest bust potential. Can't really disagree. Winslow at best is probably Jimmy Butler, but most likely is probably like Iguodala as far as impact, and that's just fine.

Generally speaking, i would think Russell, Okafor, and Winslow are the safest picks, while Towns, Mudiay, and Porzingis are the biggest wild cards, but have the greatest upside of anyone.

Very interesting stats. Winslow has the most well rounded numbers in this and stands out as the BPA @4. I would just take him. Would have liked to see the same calculations for Prozingis.

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CrushAlot
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6/19/2015  6:41 PM
Projecting The Top 50 Players In The 2015 NBA Draft Class

By Neil Paine and Zach Bradshaw

No sooner had the closing buzzer sounded on the Golden State Warriors’ championship victory over the Cleveland Cavaliers than it was time for the NBA world to turn its attention to the draft, which will be held in Brooklyn on June 25. This year’s crop of prospects hasn’t arrived with anywhere near the fanfare of the vaunted class of 2014, but it may be even deeper. And there are plenty of big decisions to make — for example: Should the Minnesota Timberwolves take Kentucky’s Karl-Anthony Towns or Duke’s Jahlil Okafor with the No. 1 overall pick?

To help with the process of sorting out Towns from Okafor and the good prospects from the bad, ESPN’s Stats & Information Group built a model1 to predict how well a college player2 who is ranked among Chad Ford’s Top 100 prospects will perform — according to Statistical Plus/Minus (SPM) — during seasons two through five of his NBA career (we use that time frame to encompass the years that a player is under team control at below-market salaries and to avoid penalizing young players for putting up poor rookie numbers on a bad team).

Like other statistical draft projection systems out there, this model uses a player’s college numbers,3 demographic data such as height and weight, and his top 100 ranking, as a proxy for what the scouts think of him. (Check out all the data on GitHub.) But unlike most draft models, our method acknowledges that NBA data on draft prospects is strongly left-censored, because very few prospects actually get a chance to play in the NBA at all, much less stick around long enough to get a meaningful sample of playing time. It’s an important distinction because any method that simply regresses NBA performance against college predictors has already made the assumption that the player possesses whatever attributes will allow him to move past the league’s playing-time gatekeepers — an assumption that could mask important distinctions between successful and unsuccessful prospects.4

Specifically, the model assesses the probability that a player’s early-career SPM will land him in each of four categories:
1.Superstar: We’re talking players like Anthony Davis here (about one of these per draft class).
2.Starter: This bucket includes solid players like Shane Battier and Kyle Lowry (about 10 per class).
3.Role player: These are the Jarrett Jacks and Tony Allens of the world (25 per class).
4.Bust: Hello, Michael Beasley! (This bucket consists of everyone not in the first three, including replacement-level players who will never actually appear in the NBA.)

And what factors are most important in determining which players fall into each category? As was the case when we forecast NFL quarterback success, a prospect’s scouting ranking is far and away the most important variable in predicting his NBA future. But there’s still a lot of noise around a projection based on the opinions of scouts alone:

bradshaw.paine-NBAdraftModel-chart2-2ndtry.0616

Aside from a player’s scouting ranking, the most significant predictive factors are either demographic or based on the program from which he came: his age, weight and the schedule-adjusted offensive and defensive ratings of his school. As for individual college statistics, the most important are 2-point shot attempts per minute, assist percentage and offensive rebounding percentage, followed by usage rate, shooting efficiency from the floor (as measured by effective field goal percentage) and steal percentage.

In other words, snagging young, athletic prospects who pass the eye test with flying colors is ideal. But there’s also value in looking for underrated players who can create shots for themselves (particularly inside the arc) and others, skillful rebounders (offensive rebounds are often better indicators of actual rebounding talent — and not team role — than defensive boards), efficient shooters or gifted ball hawks.5

With those factors in mind, here’s how the model assesses the college entries from this year’s class of draft prospects, sorting by their projected SPM for years two through five after the draft:

paine-bradshaw-nba-draft-model

In a case of dueling freshman big men, the overriding debate of the 2015 draft is probably whether the Timberwolves should take Towns or Okafor. Our model says the answer is pretty clearly Towns, who has more than twice as great a chance of becoming a superstar as Okafor — and about a 20 percent lower probability of becoming a mere role player or bust. Okafor is much heavier for his height — a no-no according to the model — while Towns is a superior defender and passer, a good combination for a big man in today’s NBA.

Instead of this draft being a battle of big men at the top, then, the model thinks a pair of small forwards — Duke’s Justise Winslow and Arizona’s Stanley Johnson — are more likely to succeed in the NBA than Okafor is. Winslow, in particular, is fascinating: His overall projection is better than what the model gives to both mega-hyped wings from last year’s draft (Andrew Wiggins and Jabari Parker), although it’s driven not so much by his ceiling as by the low likelihood that he will bust out. While Wiggins and Parker both had roughly a 35 percent bust probability, Winslow’s is 23 percent, perhaps because he has no glaring statistical red flags.

In that sense, Winslow’s profile might be symbolic of this draft class as a whole. While there figure to be fewer future superstars available this year than in 2014’s rookie crop, it might be a banner year for solid, above-average players. Even taking into account the superior star power of a year ago, the model projects this year’s class to contain about 10 percent more players who grade out as a future NBA starter or better.

And those kinds of players might be the place to look when shopping for draft bargains. Kentucky center Dakari Johnson, for example, ranks 30th according to the scouts (using the same version of Ford’s top 100 that we used in the model, from late May) and has barely any chance of becoming a superstar (2 percent), but he ranks sixth overall in the model because he has a 37 percent probability of turning into a starting-caliber player and only a 19 percent chance of becoming an outright bust. It’s a similar story for Kansas’s Cliff Alexander (16th overall), as well as a pair of Arizona forwards — Johnson (third) and Rondae Hollis-Jefferson (ninth) — all of whom defy the scouting grades because the model views them as such low-risk propositions.6

But watch out for Murray State’s Cameron Payne and Notre Dame’s Jerian Grant, a pair of point guards ranked among the top 20 by the scouts. The model sees little chance of either turning into an above-average player, with about a 75 percent probability that at least one of them becomes a total bust. Red flags are also raised for Georgia State shooting guard R.J. Hunter, whose No. 217 scouting ranking belies a staggering 87 percent probability of becoming a role player or bust.

Of course, not even advanced algorithms can turn the NBA draft into a perfect science. For instance, this model can’t directly account for work ethic, leadership and a bunch of other harder-to-measure factors that can shape a prospect’s pro career. But among the things that can be measured — whether statistically or demographically — a method that looks at what’s traditionally correlated with pro success (without overfitting) is a good start toward an NBA front office’s unenviable job of separating strong prospects from weak ones.

Footnotes

http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/projecting-the-top-50-players-in-the-2015-nba-draft-class/
Unfortunately the charts didn't copy when I copied this. I will try again and post them if I can.
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meloshouldgo
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6/19/2015  6:44 PM
People here behave like Winslow can't shoot, exactly what makes you guys think he can't score? Yes he wasn't great early on but he more than made up for it.
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technomaster
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6/20/2015  9:49 AM
Winslow strikes fear in folks like the ghosts of Miles Simon and Ron Mercer. Simon never amounted to more than a fringe role player and Mercer managed a decent pt starter/role player.

The definitions of star/starter/role player are very suspect. Jarrett Jack is certainly starter quality - even on his teams in nj and GSW, there have been times when he outshone the starters for long stretches. I'd say he's the equal of Lowry.

Busts: they don't scale the terminology relative to draft position, so I don't know how to read into this. Beasley probably performs at level for a mid-late 1st rounder. There are many others like him. Thomas Robinson is seemingly a bust but statistically he's a reasonable role player. He may one day be like Jordan Hill or Ed Davis. Marvin Williams, Tyrus Thomas, Derrick Williams, are those guys starters, role players, or busts (given that they're all lottery picks)?

Thabeet is a bust on all levels, as was Oden (though at least he has the injury excuse - thabeet has none). Johnny Flynn. Another complete bust, but again suffered a hip injury early and was out of the league sooo fast.

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crzymdups
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6/20/2015  11:15 AM
CrushAlot wrote:http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/projecting-the-top-50-players-in-the-2015-nba-draft-class/
Unfortunately the charts didn't copy when I copied this. I will try again and post them if I can.

I posted the chart above as an image.

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CrushAlot
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6/20/2015  11:32 AM
crzymdups wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/projecting-the-top-50-players-in-the-2015-nba-draft-class/
Unfortunately the charts didn't copy when I copied this. I will try again and post them if I can.

I posted the chart above as an image.

I saw that after. You had it up before I posted the article.
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codeunknown
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6/25/2015  12:08 AM
Bonn1997 wrote:
codeunknown wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:I'm not saying these are the only important #s but if you went strictly by them you'd have to take Winslow ahead of Russell. The added 6.8% chance of getting a superstar with Russell is not that big. If you picked someone like Russell over someone like Winslow in 15 consecutive draft years, this is saying it would benefit you once in terms of getting a superstar. The added 18% chance of getting a bust with Russell is much bigger. Okafor doesn't come out looking great here either though.

Right, unless 1) you significantly weight a superstar above the other categories in a non-linear way for a variety of on/off court reasons and 2) if you believe the probability of non-draft pathway acquisition of superstar talent/cost vs. other talent/cost is worse.


True but you'd have to VERY significantly outweigh the superstar category for that 6 in 100 chance to be critical. Also, if Russell is a bust, not having our lottery pick next year would hurt. I think you can give it more than a 6 in 100 chance that Winslow plays very well and is one of the reasons a star FA comes here or is a key piece in a James Harden like trade for a superstar or we by chance get a superstar elsewhere (ex - a later draft pick). I do see what you're saying, though. You could at least make a non-delusional argument that that 6 in 100 chance is critical.

Not sure if you're expressing understanding or attempting sarcasm but regardless, I easily pick Russell over Winslow. I'm not at all buying the argument that the differential rate of "starter ability" for Winslow will attract a free agent of significance, and certainly not at a rate better than that effected by Russell's increased superstar potential. Additionally, not having a lottery pick next year hurts more with respect to acquiring a superstar than a good role player, given the distribution of availability in free agency. Part of the discussion is framed by what metric is paramount; for example, among other possibilities, deciding whether winning a championship is of sole value or maximizing the win percentage probability distribution. I think role players are not rate limiting in team construction and, as such, Russell is a no-brainer.

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ESPN New Projections for Boom/Bust

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