Bonn1997 wrote:

mreinman wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

mreinman wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

mreinman wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

callmened wrote:

martin wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

Hamo49 wrote:I'm from Australia, so I don't have a clue about US taxes etc.
But what is the NY state tax? How much is it? Is it a massive NY turn off for potential free agents? I understand the cost of living would be way higher in NY, but to get taxed on top of that as well?
Here in Australia Sydney is the most expensive city to live in, and our major sport AFL, the league compensate the Sydney team with a Cost of Living Allowance, which gave them slightly more in the salary cap to compensate players who play there.
Obviously the NBA would want New York competitive, is there or has there been any talk of compensation for the teams in New York??

It is a massive turnoff for free agents. Texas and Florida are two of the states without state income tax and it is a nice advantage. If you live in New York you also have to pay a city income tax. I believe the combined total for city and state income tax if you live in nyc is 12 % of your income.

I've never heard of 1 free agent suggesting that taxes played as the decision maker for going to one team (state) or another. You?

of course they would never out right say that.

So then, of course it's false to claim to know that the state tax is turning away FAs

why do they have to say it?

if players dont say that they don't like playing with player x does that mean that they don't mind playing with player x?

who says that the big three discount in miami was not a deciding factor?

how about with mid and min level players? don't you think that tax plays a big difference for them?

how about playing in toronto? you don't think that it scares away many FA's?

because otherwise you can't assume the small difference in taxes paid for 41 days a year outweighs the large difference in marketing opportunities, public services, night life, and more that you get in NY.
Regardless, the burden is always on the person making a claim to provide evidence. If a poster claims players are avoiding certain places with higher taxes, they need to provide evidence. The strongest evidence would be quotes from players but they should at least give some evidence.

we have no evidence that carmelo and mda were NOT besties but its a pretty good assumption

there are players who it will not deter but its safe to assume that for many players it would

you don't assume that players would pass on canada because of tax implications?

If the endorsements potentially outweighed the 41 days of taxes or if other opportunities did, then no, I would not make assumptions.
Regardless, it would be different Crush had said "I don't have evidence but I assume it's a turnoff for free agents"

if its a safe assumption then you don't have to specifically state that it is an assumption

I remember reading articles stating how happy Toronto was that Lowry stayed because very few want to stay due to the tax issue.

either way, you don't like assumptions, you need large samples ... I get it :-)

What's the evidence that it's a safe assumption?
I'm partly joking but for reasons already stating, I think it is not a safe assumption. If it was this safe and obvious, I think it would have been addressed by the league already. Cost of living issues are probably much larger. You'll never make all cities equal in appeal anyway though. It looks to me more like an excuse used by people who don't want to blame our team for its incompetence.

maybe not NY but Toronto?

how about Miami vs Toronto?

Bonn1997 wrote:

mreinman wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

mreinman wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

mreinman wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

callmened wrote:

martin wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

Hamo49 wrote:I'm from Australia, so I don't have a clue about US taxes etc.
But what is the NY state tax? How much is it? Is it a massive NY turn off for potential free agents? I understand the cost of living would be way higher in NY, but to get taxed on top of that as well?
Here in Australia Sydney is the most expensive city to live in, and our major sport AFL, the league compensate the Sydney team with a Cost of Living Allowance, which gave them slightly more in the salary cap to compensate players who play there.
Obviously the NBA would want New York competitive, is there or has there been any talk of compensation for the teams in New York??

It is a massive turnoff for free agents. Texas and Florida are two of the states without state income tax and it is a nice advantage. If you live in New York you also have to pay a city income tax. I believe the combined total for city and state income tax if you live in nyc is 12 % of your income.

I've never heard of 1 free agent suggesting that taxes played as the decision maker for going to one team (state) or another. You?

of course they would never out right say that.

So then, of course it's false to claim to know that the state tax is turning away FAs

why do they have to say it?

if players dont say that they don't like playing with player x does that mean that they don't mind playing with player x?

who says that the big three discount in miami was not a deciding factor?

how about with mid and min level players? don't you think that tax plays a big difference for them?

how about playing in toronto? you don't think that it scares away many FA's?

because otherwise you can't assume the small difference in taxes paid for 41 days a year outweighs the large difference in marketing opportunities, public services, night life, and more that you get in NY.
Regardless, the burden is always on the person making a claim to provide evidence. If a poster claims players are avoiding certain places with higher taxes, they need to provide evidence. The strongest evidence would be quotes from players but they should at least give some evidence.

we have no evidence that carmelo and mda were NOT besties but its a pretty good assumption

there are players who it will not deter but its safe to assume that for many players it would

you don't assume that players would pass on canada because of tax implications?

If the endorsements potentially outweighed the 41 days of taxes or if other opportunities did, then no, I would not make assumptions.
Regardless, it would be different Crush had said "I don't have evidence but I assume it's a turnoff for free agents"

if its a safe assumption then you don't have to specifically state that it is an assumption

I remember reading articles stating how happy Toronto was that Lowry stayed because very few want to stay due to the tax issue.

either way, you don't like assumptions, you need large samples ... I get it :-)

What's the evidence that it's a safe assumption?
I'm partly joking but for reasons already stating, I think it is not a safe assumption. If it was this safe and obvious, I think it would have been addressed by the league already. Cost of living issues are probably much larger. You'll never make all cities equal in appeal anyway though. It looks to me more like an excuse used by people who don't want to blame our team for its incompetence.

Just posted an article that talks about Canada and adjustments the league did to provide some parity to Toronto after the Griz moved south. Since the Raptors' revenue is in Canadian dollars but it's business with the league based on the US dollar, drastic fluctuations in the exchange rate are an added risk on top of "playing in Siberia" (no offense to any Canadians).

That said, Texas I think is a very interesting case on the other side. I would wager part of the success of Texas teams is a combination of wide open spaces for long legged individuals and a friendly tax code. But just my $0.02 (Canadian).

mreinman wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

mreinman wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

mreinman wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

mreinman wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

callmened wrote:

martin wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

Hamo49 wrote:I'm from Australia, so I don't have a clue about US taxes etc.
But what is the NY state tax? How much is it? Is it a massive NY turn off for potential free agents? I understand the cost of living would be way higher in NY, but to get taxed on top of that as well?
Here in Australia Sydney is the most expensive city to live in, and our major sport AFL, the league compensate the Sydney team with a Cost of Living Allowance, which gave them slightly more in the salary cap to compensate players who play there.
Obviously the NBA would want New York competitive, is there or has there been any talk of compensation for the teams in New York??

It is a massive turnoff for free agents. Texas and Florida are two of the states without state income tax and it is a nice advantage. If you live in New York you also have to pay a city income tax. I believe the combined total for city and state income tax if you live in nyc is 12 % of your income.

I've never heard of 1 free agent suggesting that taxes played as the decision maker for going to one team (state) or another. You?

of course they would never out right say that.

So then, of course it's false to claim to know that the state tax is turning away FAs

why do they have to say it?

if players dont say that they don't like playing with player x does that mean that they don't mind playing with player x?

who says that the big three discount in miami was not a deciding factor?

how about with mid and min level players? don't you think that tax plays a big difference for them?

how about playing in toronto? you don't think that it scares away many FA's?

because otherwise you can't assume the small difference in taxes paid for 41 days a year outweighs the large difference in marketing opportunities, public services, night life, and more that you get in NY.
Regardless, the burden is always on the person making a claim to provide evidence. If a poster claims players are avoiding certain places with higher taxes, they need to provide evidence. The strongest evidence would be quotes from players but they should at least give some evidence.

we have no evidence that carmelo and mda were NOT besties but its a pretty good assumption

there are players who it will not deter but its safe to assume that for many players it would

you don't assume that players would pass on canada because of tax implications?

If the endorsements potentially outweighed the 41 days of taxes or if other opportunities did, then no, I would not make assumptions.
Regardless, it would be different Crush had said "I don't have evidence but I assume it's a turnoff for free agents"

if its a safe assumption then you don't have to specifically state that it is an assumption

I remember reading articles stating how happy Toronto was that Lowry stayed because very few want to stay due to the tax issue.

either way, you don't like assumptions, you need large samples ... I get it :-)

What's the evidence that it's a safe assumption?
I'm partly joking but for reasons already stating, I think it is not a safe assumption. If it was this safe and obvious, I think it would have been addressed by the league already. Cost of living issues are probably much larger. You'll never make all cities equal in appeal anyway though. It looks to me more like an excuse used by people who don't want to blame our team for its incompetence.

maybe not NY but Toronto?

how about Miami vs Toronto?

Bonn1997 wrote:

mreinman wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

mreinman wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

mreinman wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

mreinman wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

callmened wrote:

martin wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

Hamo49 wrote:I'm from Australia, so I don't have a clue about US taxes etc.
But what is the NY state tax? How much is it? Is it a massive NY turn off for potential free agents? I understand the cost of living would be way higher in NY, but to get taxed on top of that as well?
Here in Australia Sydney is the most expensive city to live in, and our major sport AFL, the league compensate the Sydney team with a Cost of Living Allowance, which gave them slightly more in the salary cap to compensate players who play there.
Obviously the NBA would want New York competitive, is there or has there been any talk of compensation for the teams in New York??

It is a massive turnoff for free agents. Texas and Florida are two of the states without state income tax and it is a nice advantage. If you live in New York you also have to pay a city income tax. I believe the combined total for city and state income tax if you live in nyc is 12 % of your income.

I've never heard of 1 free agent suggesting that taxes played as the decision maker for going to one team (state) or another. You?

of course they would never out right say that.

So then, of course it's false to claim to know that the state tax is turning away FAs

why do they have to say it?

if players dont say that they don't like playing with player x does that mean that they don't mind playing with player x?

who says that the big three discount in miami was not a deciding factor?

how about with mid and min level players? don't you think that tax plays a big difference for them?

how about playing in toronto? you don't think that it scares away many FA's?

because otherwise you can't assume the small difference in taxes paid for 41 days a year outweighs the large difference in marketing opportunities, public services, night life, and more that you get in NY.
Regardless, the burden is always on the person making a claim to provide evidence. If a poster claims players are avoiding certain places with higher taxes, they need to provide evidence. The strongest evidence would be quotes from players but they should at least give some evidence.

we have no evidence that carmelo and mda were NOT besties but its a pretty good assumption

there are players who it will not deter but its safe to assume that for many players it would

you don't assume that players would pass on canada because of tax implications?

If the endorsements potentially outweighed the 41 days of taxes or if other opportunities did, then no, I would not make assumptions.
Regardless, it would be different Crush had said "I don't have evidence but I assume it's a turnoff for free agents"

if its a safe assumption then you don't have to specifically state that it is an assumption

I remember reading articles stating how happy Toronto was that Lowry stayed because very few want to stay due to the tax issue.

either way, you don't like assumptions, you need large samples ... I get it :-)

What's the evidence that it's a safe assumption?
I'm partly joking but for reasons already stating, I think it is not a safe assumption. If it was this safe and obvious, I think it would have been addressed by the league already. Cost of living issues are probably much larger. You'll never make all cities equal in appeal anyway though. It looks to me more like an excuse used by people who don't want to blame our team for its incompetence.

maybe not NY but Toronto?

how about Miami vs Toronto?

Toronto politicians have to make Toronto appealing financially. If they don't have enough to offer to compensate for the taxes, fixing that is not the NBA's responsibility.

Toronto is now middle of the pack tax-wise to the rest of the league, but it was an issue a decade-and-a-half ago and the league provided compensation so they wouldn't lose their last Canadian team.

fishmike wrote:

mreinman wrote:

fishmike wrote:

martin wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

Hamo49 wrote:I'm from Australia, so I don't have a clue about US taxes etc.
But what is the NY state tax? How much is it? Is it a massive NY turn off for potential free agents? I understand the cost of living would be way higher in NY, but to get taxed on top of that as well?
Here in Australia Sydney is the most expensive city to live in, and our major sport AFL, the league compensate the Sydney team with a Cost of Living Allowance, which gave them slightly more in the salary cap to compensate players who play there.
Obviously the NBA would want New York competitive, is there or has there been any talk of compensation for the teams in New York??

It is a massive turnoff for free agents. Texas and Florida are two of the states without state income tax and it is a nice advantage. If you live in New York you also have to pay a city income tax. I believe the combined total for city and state income tax if you live in nyc is 12 % of your income.

I've never heard of 1 free agent suggesting that taxes played as the decision maker for going to one team (state) or another. You?

I dont believe that #. Nor have I ever heard that this is a big deal. I live 20 miles away in NJ and have worked in NYC for 15+ years and dont pay NYC taxes, only NJ state, which is nothing close to 12%. I remember reading Jeter kept a residence in Tampa for tax breaks. Seems like there are many many ways around that if its a big sticking point.

The only way this comes into play is if a player is really stuck between choosing two spots, then you factor this in.

If your looking for a new job, what factors do you consider?
1) the company your working for.
2) the job your taking (stability, role, future, quality of life)
3) the surrounding area (livibility, schools for kids, culture if your ethnic maybe)

I mean money is important, but who is going to let a 4%-8% difference dictate all of the above? I mean I make good money now... nothing crazy but a respectable wage. I would not take double my current salary to move to Chicago or San Fran, even if I didnt have to deal with ex wife logistics. I am where I want to be.

Sorry.. I just dont buy the 12% arguement.

NYC has a ~4% city tax.

NY State tax = 8.82 + 4 (city) = 12.82 (more than Miami and Texas)

great... so why do I only pay NJ and work in the city?

Also there is the jock tax which equalizes much of it:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jock_tax

Alex Rodriguez[edit]

After the 2000 Major League Baseball season, Alex Rodriguez signed what was then the largest contract in American sports history, a ten-year contract worth $252 million, with the Texas Rangers. The tax collecting authorities of other states were notified alongside the public, and would separately demand that Rodriguez's employer withhold the tax due from his salary and remit it to each of them. Even though the state of Texas did not have an income tax, he still had to pay the various state income taxes applied to each away game in each location except for Florida, Illinois, Washington state, and Washington, D.C. (as an American League player, he would visit the three states every season, while he would only visit the District if his team was involved in an interleague game against the Nationals). It is estimated that Rodriguez paid $520,000 a year for state income taxes outside his own state.[citation needed]

Its not nearly as cut and dry as folks think. You make it seem like 12% or nada, and thats very far from reality.

This is non factor IMO

I live in NYC now, but I used to commute from NJ in the late 90s. I remember paying a commuter tax. It doesn't exist anymore.

Bonn1997 wrote:

mreinman wrote:

fishmike wrote:

martin wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

Hamo49 wrote:I'm from Australia, so I don't have a clue about US taxes etc.
But what is the NY state tax? How much is it? Is it a massive NY turn off for potential free agents? I understand the cost of living would be way higher in NY, but to get taxed on top of that as well?
Here in Australia Sydney is the most expensive city to live in, and our major sport AFL, the league compensate the Sydney team with a Cost of Living Allowance, which gave them slightly more in the salary cap to compensate players who play there.
Obviously the NBA would want New York competitive, is there or has there been any talk of compensation for the teams in New York??

It is a massive turnoff for free agents. Texas and Florida are two of the states without state income tax and it is a nice advantage. If you live in New York you also have to pay a city income tax. I believe the combined total for city and state income tax if you live in nyc is 12 % of your income.

I've never heard of 1 free agent suggesting that taxes played as the decision maker for going to one team (state) or another. You?

I dont believe that #. Nor have I ever heard that this is a big deal. I live 20 miles away in NJ and have worked in NYC for 15+ years and dont pay NYC taxes, only NJ state, which is nothing close to 12%. I remember reading Jeter kept a residence in Tampa for tax breaks. Seems like there are many many ways around that if its a big sticking point.

The only way this comes into play is if a player is really stuck between choosing two spots, then you factor this in.

If your looking for a new job, what factors do you consider?
1) the company your working for.
2) the job your taking (stability, role, future, quality of life)
3) the surrounding area (livibility, schools for kids, culture if your ethnic maybe)

I mean money is important, but who is going to let a 4%-8% difference dictate all of the above? I mean I make good money now... nothing crazy but a respectable wage. I would not take double my current salary to move to Chicago or San Fran, even if I didnt have to deal with ex wife logistics. I am where I want to be.

Sorry.. I just dont buy the 12% arguement.

NYC has a ~4% city tax.

NY State tax = 8.82 + 4 (city) = 12.82 (more than Miami and Texas)

It's a bit more complicated, though because (a) you pay the taxes only for the 41 home games a year and (b) I believe those tax payments are then federal income tax deductions.

players care about each million ... (see the melo big team discount)

DrAlphaeus wrote:

fishmike wrote:

mreinman wrote:

fishmike wrote:

martin wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

Hamo49 wrote:I'm from Australia, so I don't have a clue about US taxes etc.
But what is the NY state tax? How much is it? Is it a massive NY turn off for potential free agents? I understand the cost of living would be way higher in NY, but to get taxed on top of that as well?
Here in Australia Sydney is the most expensive city to live in, and our major sport AFL, the league compensate the Sydney team with a Cost of Living Allowance, which gave them slightly more in the salary cap to compensate players who play there.
Obviously the NBA would want New York competitive, is there or has there been any talk of compensation for the teams in New York??

It is a massive turnoff for free agents. Texas and Florida are two of the states without state income tax and it is a nice advantage. If you live in New York you also have to pay a city income tax. I believe the combined total for city and state income tax if you live in nyc is 12 % of your income.

I've never heard of 1 free agent suggesting that taxes played as the decision maker for going to one team (state) or another. You?

I dont believe that #. Nor have I ever heard that this is a big deal. I live 20 miles away in NJ and have worked in NYC for 15+ years and dont pay NYC taxes, only NJ state, which is nothing close to 12%. I remember reading Jeter kept a residence in Tampa for tax breaks. Seems like there are many many ways around that if its a big sticking point.

The only way this comes into play is if a player is really stuck between choosing two spots, then you factor this in.

If your looking for a new job, what factors do you consider?
1) the company your working for.
2) the job your taking (stability, role, future, quality of life)
3) the surrounding area (livibility, schools for kids, culture if your ethnic maybe)

I mean money is important, but who is going to let a 4%-8% difference dictate all of the above? I mean I make good money now... nothing crazy but a respectable wage. I would not take double my current salary to move to Chicago or San Fran, even if I didnt have to deal with ex wife logistics. I am where I want to be.

Sorry.. I just dont buy the 12% arguement.

NYC has a ~4% city tax.

NY State tax = 8.82 + 4 (city) = 12.82 (more than Miami and Texas)

great... so why do I only pay NJ and work in the city?

Also there is the jock tax which equalizes much of it:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jock_tax

Alex Rodriguez[edit]

After the 2000 Major League Baseball season, Alex Rodriguez signed what was then the largest contract in American sports history, a ten-year contract worth $252 million, with the Texas Rangers. The tax collecting authorities of other states were notified alongside the public, and would separately demand that Rodriguez's employer withhold the tax due from his salary and remit it to each of them. Even though the state of Texas did not have an income tax, he still had to pay the various state income taxes applied to each away game in each location except for Florida, Illinois, Washington state, and Washington, D.C. (as an American League player, he would visit the three states every season, while he would only visit the District if his team was involved in an interleague game against the Nationals). It is estimated that Rodriguez paid $520,000 a year for state income taxes outside his own state.[citation needed]

Its not nearly as cut and dry as folks think. You make it seem like 12% or nada, and thats very far from reality.

This is non factor IMO

I live in NYC now, but I used to commute from NJ in the late 90s. I remember paying a commuter tax. It doesn't exist anymore.

ah ... I guess that is when I remember it from as well.

anyway, I will back out of this discussion because I am not an accountant and you guys all obviously know much more than me about this stuff.

Silverfuel wrote:https://www.protectingtaxpayers.org/index.php?blog&action=view&post_id=37
Not the best source but an interesting read.