holfresh wrote:Mozgov is playing a hell of a game..

More talent than folks originally thought, and pretty athletic for a big Rusky.

As for Mozgov...I remember the first game he cranked 18 points for us. Eyes open wider than they were already open. I knew he was a top player. Why didn't the Knicks organization know what I and other good fans saw?

FireWoodson wrote:Why do you people always make excuses for not having Shump and JR on our team anymore? Yeah, they both could be inconsistent as hell, but when they are on, they are ON! Don't you want players on your team who are a step above most other players in the league?

As for Mozgov...I remember the first game he cranked 18 points for us. Eyes open wider than they were already open. I knew he was a top player. Why didn't the Knicks organization know what I and other good fans saw?

We did see it. Dolan wanted Melo.

As for JR, he was in China and we go him after the strike ended as a free agent. our Cupboard was bare. Nobody ever disputes JR's talent, its his head. The head attached to the body make it do stupid things. He has all star talent.

As for Shump, he is injury prone and a free agent. At age 24 he was given an audition and was not into the Triangle as well. Not sure Shump is special. Sometimes time to move on for both.
I don't begrudge their success with Lebron but they had their time here to be solid knicks and demonstrated more of a role player mentality and talent. JR under Lebron is a very good player. He had a moment to shine last nite and didn't step up. He has been a big part of them making the finals thus far.

FireWoodson wrote:Why do you people always make excuses for not having Shump and JR on our team anymore? Yeah, they both could be inconsistent as hell, but when they are on, they are ON! Don't you want players on your team who are a step above most other players in the league?

As for Mozgov...I remember the first game he cranked 18 points for us. Eyes open wider than they were already open. I knew he was a top player. Why didn't the Knicks organization know what I and other good fans saw?

1) Lebron is the best player on the planet. He is a PG in a Power Forward's body. Having Lebron on any team will immediately improve the players around him. If you took Lebron and put him on the current Knicks roster (with or without Melo) - the team would have won significantly more games with marginal players performing better.

2) The salary cap - when players are not performing for your team - they essentially become dead weight in terms of cap maneuverability. JR and Shump were uneven at best, and suspended/injury prone (respectively) at worst. If you are a team that is not in contention or bad, it really makes little sense to carry flaky or injury prone uneven guys like this on a roster until you first build a solid core.

3) Mosgov - Is turning out to be a very nice starting NBA center - but he is already 28 years old and has pretty much been a role player / reserve for much of his career. So it took 4 years for what you saw to come to fruition and in terms of patience. With a professional athlete, that is an eternity. Not sure the Knicks would have had enough patience with Moz even if they did not trade him do Denver.

Now do a little projection. Take Shump & JR and put them on the TWolves roster from this year. Would they have made a difference and would you still be pining for them like you continue to do on this board? Chances are no.

Now take any two Knicks players and put them next to Lebron on the current Cleveland roster. Would you be talking them up as key cogs on a contending team and significant losses for the Knicks? Chances are yes.

holfresh wrote:

GoNyGoNyGo wrote:NY did not want to trade Mozgov.

Shump was not resigning here. Smith? Really are we really missing JR Smith now? Come on.

They are playing with the best player on the planet. On their own they would be not so good.

Cop out answer...

Shump is putting up exactly and I mean exactly the same numbers in Cleveland that he did in NY..JR was playing better with us when he was sixth man of the year..If you were honest, you would mention that they were not put in the best situation to suit their abilities here...LeBron is absolutely a factor, but those guys would perform here is givein similiar roles here...Our GM and coach wants to win a certain way, their way...

They were scapegoats, they got the blame for the triangle not working...

JR more than Shumpert got blamed for not being a triangle player. I don't think that is wrong. The Cavs play a style that works for both of them but more JR.

What I was trying to say is that JR and Shumpert were not part of the future in NY, IMO. THey had similar roles here in NY. The difference was that NY's star player is not at the same level as Cleveland's. Thus, they got blamed more.

Mozgov was part of the future as Walsh planned it. That got blown apart with the Melo deal.

mreinman wrote:

smackeddog wrote:Poor firewoodson and his repetitive, premature threads.

premature?

holfresh wrote:

GoNyGoNyGo wrote:

holfresh wrote:

GoNyGoNyGo wrote:NY did not want to trade Mozgov.

Shump was not resigning here. Smith? Really are we really missing JR Smith now? Come on.

They are playing with the best player on the planet. On their own they would be not so good.

Cop out answer...

Shump is putting up exactly and I mean exactly the same numbers in Cleveland that he did in NY..JR was playing better with us when he was sixth man of the year..If you were honest, you would mention that they were not put in the best situation to suit their abilities here...LeBron is absolutely a factor, but those guys would perform here is givein similiar roles here...Our GM and coach wants to win a certain way, their way...

They were scapegoats, they got the blame for the triangle not working...

JR more than Shumpert got blamed for not being a triangle player. I don't think that is wrong. The Cavs play a style that works for both of them but more JR.

What I was trying to say is that JR and Shumpert were not part of the future in NY, IMO. THey had similar roles here in NY. The difference was that NY's star player is not at the same level as Cleveland's. Thus, they got blamed more.

Mozgov was part of the future as Walsh planned it. That got blown apart with the Melo deal.

In my humble observation, JR was the best passer in the triangle and I said it many, many, times..Some posters did agree with me at the time..The d leaguers who took over was credited for learning the triangle quicker than JR and Shump..But the fact is that the Knicks lost more games and at wider margins..The Knicks in the second half of the year had lost more games at the widest margins in the history of the NBA..Yet some how the word got out that they were doing a better job than JR and Shump...I'm going to stick to what I saw on the court and what the numbers told me..JR had a bad start but started to play better..Shump had put up consistent numbers throughout..They were scapegoats...

As far as losing by wider margins, yes they did. They were replaced with lesser talented players but for some reason they were more fun to watch and they seemed to fit in better.

For me, its the old saying, "Hard work beats talent every time talent doesn't work hard". To win a ring you need both but for me, it was more enjoyable to watch the DL guys lose than to watch JR and his lack of hustle, losing.

WaltLongmire wrote:The kind of game JR had can be overlooked in the regular season, especially if you are playing teams you can beat easily.

Not as much margin for error against a team like GS, which has a lot of pride in their D.

Watch GS on offense- much less standing around. There was that one play where Curry scored on a kind of give and go where he passed off, and instead of cutting to the basket RAN to the corner, got a pass and hit a 3.

JR buys into the Triangle and he might still be a Knick.

I though Shumpert was more willing to adapt, but he is so inconsistent.

Will be interesting to see if they have him bringing the ball up the court under any kind of pressure. Some thought he could be a PG at one point- but he seems best suited to be a catch and shoot player hanging out on the wings and hoping for an open three. Not exactly what he envisioned, I would say.

If he wasn't inconsistent he would be an all star..role players are inconsistent..Cleveland have 3 players in the starting lineup who are better Shump and when healthy they have 2 bench players as well who are better than Shump..On the Knicks he doesn't have that luxury..We need him/them to be second to Melo..And when that doesn't happen they need to be traded..

We don't look at it as these players as needing to be put in their proper roles..Noooooo..They quit on us and they didn't buy in..

holfresh wrote:

GoNyGoNyGo wrote:They are playing with the best player on the planet. On their own they would be not so good.

Cop out answer...

Shump is putting up exactly and I mean exactly the same numbers in Cleveland that he did in NY..JR was playing better with us when he was sixth man of the year..

HOORAY! BRAVO!
FINALLY THE TRUTH!
holfresh you are the only honest and sharp one here.

Yes, quit that horsecrap "Shump and JR are now playing with the best player on the planet." Uhh, the numbers show that Shump and JR were actually performing better as Knicks. That fat basketball guy on ESPN showed the numbers: JR this year had better numbers pre-January with Knicks than post-January with LeBron. LeBron didn't make those two guys better (if you want to go by numbers, LeBron actually made them wose!). Shump and JR were good Knicks, good Cavs. Point is both Shump and JR are very good players on any team. Get it, folks? Good players. And we let two assets go. And for just two 2019 draft picks!?!

What holfresh says, "They were scapegoats, they got the blame for the triangle not working..." is true. Also true is that system was being forced onto players that were not right for it. Shump in yesterday's paper said, "The coaches in Cleveland simplified my role." That says a ton of just how wrong that trinagle was for our group of guys last season.