crzymdups wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:

crzymdups wrote:I might just be leaning towards Willie Cauley Stein at 4 at this point. He's better than Tyson was as a kid.

Not really a fair comparison. Tyson was a high school senior while Stein is coming in as a junior. I Like Stein, but he's bad value. I'd only consider him if we trade down.

I meant that Stein will have a quicker adjustment period to the league. It took Tyson a few years, really til he got to New Orleans, to make a big impact. I think by virtue of his being a junior he'll be able to adjust to the league more quickly. If you think Phil isn't considering that, I'd think again.

Also, most mocks have Stein slated at 6th, with at least one international ahead of him. So Stein is listed as the 4th or 5th best college player in the draft. Is that really a reach at 4? Particularly since he has an all world elite ability to guard the pick and roll, our single biggest defensive weakness AND he's elite at closing out on three point shooters, our second biggest defensive weakness?

I think Stein is tailor made to defend the way the NBA plays now. I think he'll be very good. And will probably be surprisingly effective on offense. He already has a better mid-range jumper than Tyson ever developed and he has an ability to drive the ball to the hoop, in a straight line at least, another offensive wrinkle Tyson never picked up in 10-12 years in the league.

nixluva wrote:At the next level WCS is still an elite athlete at 7' and a rim protector. That is a very real and clear role. Guys get paid BIG dollars to do just that in the NBA. Kaminsky is very skilled but not elite in anyway physically. There have been lots of guys with his skill level that haven't really done much at the NBA level. The things WCS specializes in have always been prized by winning teams since Bill Russell. WCS will get points off hard work and not so much by featuring him offensively. We can get offensive bigs.

Maybe he has some hidden offensive ability that we've never seen, but he's yet to show that he can do more than dunk or score on layups at this point, and unlike some, he's had 3 years to improve. Wish that Stein had a hook like Russell did, by the way.

crzymdups wrote:
Fair point that his weaknesses may have been masked by the superior Kentucky roster and frontcourt. Though I don't know that Cal would've gone out of his way to develop Stein's offense if he didn't need to - I think Cal was probably more concerned with going undefeated and developing Towns this season and Randle the previous one.

And he's not just an elite athlete. He's an elite defender, which is a definite and insanely valuable skill. Particularly his ability to cover the pick and roll and his speed on closing out on shooters with his length.

Defense is a skill, like shooting is a skill or dribbling is a skill - theoretically everyone can work on it and get better, but the fact is they are skills some guys are just good at to begin with or have a natural predilection towards. It's something guys have to want to be good at - Stein relishes it and is really really good at it.

Are you going to tell me that if Stein comes back after his freshman year with an automatic jump hook, a solid midrange J, or a 5 foot turnaround jumper from the side where he uses the glass that Calipari is not going to change things a bit? Well Stein had two off seasons (I know he was injured one year, don't know how much that affected his between season training) to work on his game, and only seemed to improve his foul shooting.

This is part of the DrExpress evaluation of his game from April 2015. Yes, I cherry-picked, but it seems to point out some major issues. They have him going to the Kings at 6, a team with one of the most talented offensive bigs in the game, but you figure Stein would be used their for the dirty work.

Nevertheless, Cauley-Stein is unlikely to emerge as anything more than a complimentary player at best on the offensive end, as despite turning 22 a few months after the draft, he still shows poor instincts as a scorer and was rarely counted on for consistent production at the college level.

Cauley-Stein is extremely limited with his back to the basket, being unable to consistently score inside the paint at the college level, even with significantly smaller players guarding him. His lack of strength is an issue, which prevents him from establishing deep post position and finishing through contract in traffic, but so is his lack of balance and countermoves which causes him to look rushed and out of control when under pressure. He misses some relatively easy shots around the rim too frequently, showing average touch in the process, and isn't a particularly good passer either, generating an assist on just 7% of his possessions.

Cauley-Stein's defensive rebounding numbers don't jump off the page at 6.6 per-40, which is partially a product of his role at Kentucky and also somewhat of an indication of things he needs to continue to improve on in time. Spending significant time on the perimeter defensively, or challenging opponents around the rim as a rim-protector, Cauley-Stein often isn't in position to make a play on the glass, something that is very much by design. With that said, his lack of strength and average toughness allowed him to get pushed around in the paint at times, and he is not very fundamentally sound in terms of the way he approaches boxing out opponents, often preferring to just use his incredible natural gifts to go out and grab rebounds instead.

Cauley-Stein's focus and intensity-level tend to waver at times, which spills into other parts of his games as well. You don't always quite know what you'll get on any given night with him, as he's somewhat inconsistent with his approach and will appear to simply be going through the motions every so often due to a lack of concentration—not being productive at all. He's gotten much better with this as his career has moved on, but there are still some concerns about whether he'll be able to maintain the same energy-level and be consistent through a long and grueling 82 game season.

I really wish I could like this guy at the #4 slot, but I can't. I've seen some interviews which led me to believe he is a likable guy, but I am not looking for another Tyson Chandler, and in the offense we run, Stein would be a liability.

If I met Mr. Stein I'd say, "please, Willie, prove me wrong and blow the Knicks away if you work out for them," but I just don't think he is capable of doing this.

crzymdups wrote:Realized we didn't have one of these for Stein. We get so caught up in potential, we might be ignoring a guy who has demonstrated absolutely elite, all world talent in a few key areas. Defense, pick and roll defense, passing lane defense, rebounding, offensive rebounding, fast break... this kid is not a complete weapon in the post and likely won't be, but he can be an elite defensive weapon like Draymond Green and also an elite rebounder. Put him next to Monroe in the post and you've got a big mobile target for Melo and Monroe to hit when they're doing their thing in the Triangle.

Dennis Rodman was limited offensively, but fit next to the post offense of late period Michael Jordan like a glove. I think WCS could be a great great player - we've already seen how Melo thrives next to big centers and I think Stein could arguably be better than Tyson Chandler.

I might just be leaning towards Willie Cauley Stein at 4 at this point. He's better than Tyson was as a kid. He's so quick on the pick and roll. He's going to win at least one Defensive Player of the Year award.

It's disappointing to not get Towns, but Cauley Stein will be a dominant defensive pressence and a dominant offensive rebounder in this league for years.

Try to add Greg Monroe and maybe DeMarre Carroll or Khris Middleton (though I doubt Milwaukee lets him go, but maybe with Parker in the wings) and you've got a long, defensive team with Melo and Monroe and Middleton as offensive options.

Galloway
Middleton or Carroll or Danny Green
Melo
Monroe
WCS

Bonn1997 wrote:
Are you aware of the #s Tyson was putting up in HS right before he was drafted? He was averaging close to a 30-20-10 triple double (points rbs blocks). It's not impossible that Stein will reach the Tyson or D Jordan (I've been hearing that name too) level but I think it's remarkably improbable. He's never had or even begun to approach that kind of production.

Tyson was great in high school, but it's almost impossible to judge high school stats. Heck, I played high school basketball - a 6'1" 160lb PF. Yes, Tyson probably would've gotten a triple double against me.

Just going by what I saw from early years of Tyson in the NBA vs Stein's game - I think Stein is more advanced in some areas on the floor. He has a better jumper and a better handle. He's probably not the elite rebounder Tyson is - but if you put him next to Melo and Monroe on the frontline - those guys are both above average rebounders for their position, which would free Stein up to roam for blocks and pick and roll coverage and closing out on perimeter shooters, which is what he did at Kentucky, which made his rebound numbers lower and Towns' higher, according to some.

Bonn1997 wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:
Are you aware of the #s Tyson was putting up in HS right before he was drafted? He was averaging close to a 30-20-10 triple double (points rbs blocks). It's not impossible that Stein will reach the Tyson or D Jordan (I've been hearing that name too) level but I think it's remarkably improbable. He's never had or even begun to approach that kind of production.

Tyson was great in high school, but it's almost impossible to judge high school stats. Heck, I played high school basketball - a 6'1" 160lb PF. Yes, Tyson probably would've gotten a triple double against me.

Just going by what I saw from early years of Tyson in the NBA vs Stein's game - I think Stein is more advanced in some areas on the floor. He has a better jumper and a better handle. He's probably not the elite rebounder Tyson is - but if you put him next to Melo and Monroe on the frontline - those guys are both above average rebounders for their position, which would free Stein up to roam for blocks and pick and roll coverage and closing out on perimeter shooters, which is what he did at Kentucky, which made his rebound numbers lower and Towns' higher, according to some.

That's fine but appears different from what you said: "He's better than Tyson was a kid"
Also, if what you're saying is true, it's a bit disturbing that against guys like you Stein only averaged 12 pts, 3.6 rbs, 0.4 blocks as a senior in high school. You're comparing 12, 4, and 0 to 26, 15, and 8 (Tyson's exact HS #s). Even in his first few years in the NBA Tyson was producing at least as much as Stein was at the same age against college kids. That's why it's really hard for me to get your statement that he's better than Tyson was as a kid. It's not just the rebounding. I don't think he'll average double digit scoring like Tyson does either. He hasn't done that against college guys.
I think Tyson was a smart gamble on an early lottery pick even if he played a little below expectations. Tall guys who haven't produced much at any level but have decent potential should be drafted WAY later than 4 IMO. If he's available in the 20s, I'll take him but I think some team will make a poor gamble on him much sooner in the draft.

My understanding is that Stein's main focus in high school was football and he was a standout wide receiver. That would worry me more if he hadn't just spent 3 years at the best NBA finishing school college basketball program in the country.

And I think his numbers were low at Kentucky based on playing with other blue chip bigs and playing in a platoon system - the same argument many used for Towns' numbers being low - which I happen to agree with.

I just think he's more NBA ready than Tyson was. I think his ceiling is slightly different than Tyson - he may never lead the league in rebounds the way Tyson did, but I think he could be one of the all around best defenders in the league. His ability to guard the pick and roll and shut down point guards is insane. Every time I watched Kentucky I came away wishing we had both Towns and Stein. But early in the season, I definitely was more impressed by Stein.

Tyson never really progressed on offense in the NBA. I don't expect Stein to do much on offense - though I think he can consistently hit the mid range jumper (he already hits at 32% on mid range jumpers, which is higher than Tyson and about the same as Monroe) and I think his dribble skills could be a boon.

We're running the Triangle - it's about moving without the ball unless you are one of the lynch pin post options. I'm assuming Melo and Monroe would be the lynch pin post guys and Stein would get a lot of wide open lobs due to Melo and Monroe commanding doubles. I think it'd be a fit.

crzymdups wrote:
That's a fair point. I just think that he's a very good piece. At 4, in this draft, the ability to get a do it all big man... it's just not happening. The only guy in this draft who can do that is Towns.

I wish we'd gotten to see a Kentucky / Duke final so we could see what Okafor would've looked like against Stein. My guess is that Okafor would've been shut down by Towns and Stein.

I think we all wanted to see that showdown. Kaminsky had already faced OK4 during the season, and DraftExpress featured the matchup in a comparison video.

Not getting to see OK4 go up against Towns and Stein was a setback in terms of our evaluation of players. Maybe OK4 would have risen to the occasion and had a great game...maybe not, but unfortunately, we will never know.

For what it is worth, though, Kaminsky came out looking pretty good when all the smoke cleared, even though his team lost in the finals. He faced the guys considered the top bigs in this draft, and his status was enhanced, not diminished.

What makes it a better situation for WCS is that he would be able to take advantage of the motion in this offense to get him touches within 2 steps of the basket. Just to make it clearer exactly how he'd be used is to look at how Amundson was used. This isn't a guessing game. WCS would be pretty much playing exactly the same role and learning to make the same decisions with the ball. Very basic passes and just as simple catch and finish moves near the basket. I think WCS has more talent than Amundson, most certainly more size and athletic ability. I think Lou is at about the bottom of offensive talent as you can get.

crzymdups wrote:I know I sound like Briggs right now... ...

but the more I think about it, I'm convinced Stein is the right pick. He's going to excel in the NBA.

What Phil is likely thinking is how can he assure sustained competitiveness with this team. He can do that with a legit defense. He's made it clear he's focused on the defense and IMO that brings WCS into the picture. He's not the sexy pic but he might be the right pick for Phil's rebuild. WCS doesn't need the ball in order to have an impact. Phil can add more scoring in Free Agency but having a young Rim Protector could be a good core piece.