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Does the game start from the PG position or the Center spot?
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knicks1248
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5/12/2015  11:00 AM
It's amazing how people are still gun ho about thinking a center is such a priority when pg's have came into MSG crushed the knicks on a nightly basis. I mean how many pg's did tyson get caught up gaurding. Even Jarret jack had career games against the knicks.
ES
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crzymdups
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5/12/2015  11:55 AM
This is the million dollar question - do you build around a center or a PG. Most elite teams have top of the draft talent at each spot.

The Grizz have Gasol and Conley

The GSW have Bogut and Curry

The Clips have Blake/DeAndre and CP3

Spurs have Duncan and Parker

Houston has Harden (essentially a PG on offense) and Dwight

Atlanta has Horford and Teague

Chicago has Rose and Gasol/Noah

I think it's actually harder to get a superstar guard at this point - you saw at the trade deadline the premium put on PGs around the league. I'd take a long hard look at D'Angelo Russell and Mudiay. In some way, I almost hope the Knicks are cornered into picking one of those two.

I like Towns and Okafor, and I'd be okay with it. But the secret of building a great team in today's NBA is that you have to somehow luck into an all-star at both positions to really compete for a title.

The Cavs are the only real contender not built on that model, but they have the best player on the planet - even if he is looking a little older these days.

¿ △ ?
Nalod
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5/12/2015  12:19 PM
Phil got 3 with Cartwright and Ho Grant. The committe thing on the second set of 3 was balanced by Rodman and some guys who could hit a midrange shot.
The next 5 rings was with Shaq who had Kobe.

My take away is not so much having a traditional PG as much as guys that play to Point. Call him Pippen, call him Jordan, Call him Kobe. The PG's on Phils teams were usually play off the ball types that can shoot.

Lebron is the defacto PG on his teams.

So basically the offensive weapon need not be defined by position so long as its one of the three ball handling guys.
So you take the best player available.

RonRon
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5/12/2015  12:44 PM

in order to be LEGIT contenders

You will need multiple TOP TALENTS or MULTIPLE versatile talents for OFF and DEF

While it isn't necessarily the PG to be able to score/facilitate, it is the position that generally has the abiilty to penetrate with quickenss to push tempo and control the tempo throughout the game as well

Same for the Center, usually the team's best rebounder/shot blocker/anchor for defense, it could come from another position or from MULTIPLE positions that can play 1v1 DEF and HELP DEFENSE as well


In the end you will need a lot of talent to win and both the PG and Center is important
However, I feel in general, people place too much value on a BIG over a guard
For instance, I believe you would have a great chance to win with Brandon Wright and John Wall than Towns and Larkin, though how you fill out the rest of the squad is actually more imporant with FIT, SYSTEM, CHEMISTRY, being different....

While both are very important, it comes down to how you are able to build the rest of the squad around them

knicks1248
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5/12/2015  12:49 PM
Nalod wrote:Phil got 3 with Cartwright and Ho Grant. The committe thing on the second set of 3 was balanced by Rodman and some guys who could hit a midrange shot.
The next 5 rings was with Shaq who had Kobe.

My take away is not so much having a traditional PG as much as guys that play to Point. Call him Pippen, call him Jordan, Call him Kobe. The PG's on Phils teams were usually play off the ball types that can shoot.

Lebron is the defacto PG on his teams.

So basically the offensive weapon need not be defined by position so long as its one of the three ball handling guys.
So you take the best player available.


See this is where your wrong, kobe and jordan both excellent ball handlers no real need for a top notch pg. we don't have one single guard (THJ) that knows how to pass, let alone dribble.

Getting a Center who can post and excel in a PnR with a below avg PG, is non sense and backwards. You can count on one hand the amount of post plays you see in a NBA game today.

You can count on one hand the amount of big man who are a actual threat in the post.

You guys keep talking about not having a traditional PG as if we are planing on running the triangle for a generation, which we won't

ES
Knicks1969
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5/12/2015  12:58 PM
crzymdups wrote:This is the million dollar question - do you build around a center or a PG. Most elite teams have top of the draft talent at each spot.

The Grizz have Gasol and Conley

The GSW have Bogut and Curry

The Clips have Blake/DeAndre and CP3

Spurs have Duncan and Parker

Houston has Harden (essentially a PG on offense) and Dwight

Atlanta has Horford and Teague

Chicago has Rose and Gasol/Noah

I think it's actually harder to get a superstar guard at this point - you saw at the trade deadline the premium put on PGs around the league. I'd take a long hard look at D'Angelo Russell and Mudiay. In some way, I almost hope the Knicks are cornered into picking one of those two.

I like Towns and Okafor, and I'd be okay with it. But the secret of building a great team in today's NBA is that you have to somehow luck into an all-star at both positions to really compete for a title.

The Cavs are the only real contender not built on that model, but they have the best player on the planet - even if he is looking a little older these days.

The Cavs have two of the league's best PGs on their roster in Lebron and Kyrie.

Thank God Fisher is no longer our coach, now let's get Calderon out of here:)
nixluva
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5/12/2015  12:59 PM
knicks1248 wrote:
Nalod wrote:Phil got 3 with Cartwright and Ho Grant. The committe thing on the second set of 3 was balanced by Rodman and some guys who could hit a midrange shot.
The next 5 rings was with Shaq who had Kobe.

My take away is not so much having a traditional PG as much as guys that play to Point. Call him Pippen, call him Jordan, Call him Kobe. The PG's on Phils teams were usually play off the ball types that can shoot.

Lebron is the defacto PG on his teams.

So basically the offensive weapon need not be defined by position so long as its one of the three ball handling guys.
So you take the best player available.


See this is where your wrong, kobe and jordan both excellent ball handlers no real need for a top notch pg. we don't have one single guard (THJ) that knows how to pass, let alone dribble.

Getting a Center who can post and excel in a PnR with a below avg PG, is non sense and backwards. You can count on one hand the amount of post plays you see in a NBA game today.

You can count on one hand the amount of big man who are a actual threat in the post.

You guys keep talking about not having a traditional PG as if we are planing on running the triangle for a generation, which we won't


You clearly didn't understand what Nalod wrote. He just said that it wasn't necessary that your Point or ball handler/playmaker be an actual PG!!!

Also you completely forgot Shved. Phil targeted Shved based on his skill set and he was able to do things on a lower level that Phil has always had in terms of a big guard who can drive and pass on a good level. Things improved with Shved in the mix and it was a hint at what works. He also tried out Ledo who is a big guard with passing and driving ability. Neither are superstars but you can get the idea just watching how they can be effective.

Knicks1969
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5/12/2015  1:03 PM
knicks1248 wrote:
Nalod wrote:Phil got 3 with Cartwright and Ho Grant. The committe thing on the second set of 3 was balanced by Rodman and some guys who could hit a midrange shot.
The next 5 rings was with Shaq who had Kobe.

My take away is not so much having a traditional PG as much as guys that play to Point. Call him Pippen, call him Jordan, Call him Kobe. The PG's on Phils teams were usually play off the ball types that can shoot.

Lebron is the defacto PG on his teams.

So basically the offensive weapon need not be defined by position so long as its one of the three ball handling guys.
So you take the best player available.


See this is where your wrong, kobe and jordan both excellent ball handlers no real need for a top notch pg. we don't have one single guard (THJ) that knows how to pass, let alone dribble.

Getting a Center who can post and excel in a PnR with a below avg PG, is non sense and backwards. You can count on one hand the amount of post plays you see in a NBA game today.

You can count on one hand the amount of big man who are a actual threat in the post.

You guys keep talking about not having a traditional PG as if we are planing on running the triangle for a generation, which we won't

AGREE. I love Towns, but in my opinion, the player WE need the MOST is Russell. With him on the floor, we will be a better orchestrated team. You have to honor his ability to shoot the rock; furthermore,his unselfishness and court vision are a lot to be reckoned with.

Thank God Fisher is no longer our coach, now let's get Calderon out of here:)
RonRon
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5/12/2015  1:34 PM    LAST EDITED: 5/12/2015  2:20 PM
Unless Lakers pick falls and Philly gets their pick

I do not see Russell and Mudiay getting past both teams, though it would be better to speculate after the ping pong balls determine the draft orders in about 7 or 8 more days


Not only did The Bulls not have a very good/quick PG, they didn't have a great POST CENTER either though Bryan Williams was probably the best post Center
They did have Ron Harper with great size and decent athelticism at the time that played on the Lakers as well
Though they had Pippen, Jordan, Kukoc *as a stetch 4 that played Center at times as the BIGGEST guy on the floor*


Back to The Lakers with Shaq and Kobe,
The Triangle was tweaked, as they never played witha dominant Center like Shaq, so Shaq was able to do well despite never utilizing a strong POST CENTER with the Bulls

Fill ins include
Horry, Fox, Ron Harper, Fisher, Brian Shaw, Devan George *was pretty good for them and under rated on both ends of the floor*


Lakers with Pau Gasol, Bynum *though wasn't fully healthy for majority of many years*, Kobe, Odom, etc...
They had many versatile talents with many players that have played with the Triangle already, mastering it togehter, and knowing when to break off the set and utilize their versatility to exploit match ups


Fill ins include

Trevor Ariza *was very under rated and if he stayed, I have Lakers winning 1 or 2 more RINGS with his versatility to fit in with the team*
MWP *hit the timely 3pter but was a pretty bad swap for Ariza for the most part*
Shannon Brown was a BIG TIME under rated scorer for that squad that gave them much scoring in the 2nd unit that played decent DEFENSE was he was in his prime, at SG/PG

For NYK's, we will not have a Jordan, Pippen, or Shaq, though we could get an older Gasol next summer

My point is that the PG could be very effective in the Triangle and could be a TOP 3 option of the system that was not a big part of the previous teams
If it is Russell, then we will need another facilitator from another position so Russell could play the off guard at times and play some PG at times as well, he also could be a mid range post up option or even deep post positiona times, with other shooters to spread him out especially with BIGS like Ajinicia/Towns etc...

Or Mudiay who could develop to a John Wall/Tyreke Evans *better PG though with that size/athleticism*

I think we will need to build a team that resembles more of the 2nd Lakers with Gasol/Odom/Ariza with a Bynum type of post presence as well
Though if we can lure Lebron/Durant or Lebron/CA, or/and Whiteside/Gasol to be the post presence that we need...

Thanasis could develop to a role similiar to Ariza, as the 4th/5th option but could score in bunches due to the versatilty of other talents around him, with many other good 1v1 defender and team defenders to fit his strength, along with shooters to spread the floor with HIGH IQ for cuts, 1v1 post opporutnities/shooters to spread the floor, and multiple players that could initiate our OFFENSE at a high % shot


We need a player whether it is a PG or another position that can consistently push the tempo with the ability to penetrate and finish with contact, while drawing double/triple teams and facilitate, in general PG's are best at doing this, and which is why I would like to acquire Tony Wroten if we can buy low for his services, with a trade of Tim Hardaway JR and Early, possibly a 2nd rounder as well

Or we can trade down with Philly depending on how the ping pong balls shape up, though I would hope we can have teams go on a bidding war that would allow us to acquire more assets in the process whether it is with Twolves/Sixers or whoever, especially if Laker falls out of their pick and Philly can get 2 TOP 6 picks, which they could go for Mudiay and Russell with Emdbid/Noel already, would like Covington/Thomas Robinson as well, they have Dario Saric's rights as a 1st rounder last season as well as other international players
Covington's ability to score with his vet min contract for a couple more seasons would allow us to better spend our money on other positions and he could play as a SF or stretch 4,


Phil Jackson has said he wants players with the ability to attack the basket with consistency in which Wroten/Shabazz would give us
I would love Dennis Schoedder however, Atlanta is not going to give up on him, as he has developed to a very good player


Tony Wroten
Shabazzz Muhhammed


both players have injury concerns with Tony Wroten's being a higher risk, though I would only trade for him if we can get him as bargain due to his knee injury
While Covington and Thomas Robinson *sign and trade at a cost efficient contract without overpaying* would be solid players whether on our bench rotation


Whether we offer Poison Pills *only able to do so with 2year players* or not should be an interseting option with


Mike Muscuala

as well as a trade for Walter Tavaras and/or Mike Muscula with Atlanta's multiple FA's to be, and Al Horford will be seeking a HUGE contract with the rise of the cap in 2017 where he will be a UFA
With Millsap/DeMarre Carroll/Pero Antic *not sure if he is RFA or UFA* looking for their payday this summer, and eventually Horford, Dennis Schroedder will be as well, along with Teague/Korver's/Mike Scott contracts ending 1year after 2017 when the cap continues to go up, I think they will likely look to trade Teague at some point with the development of Schroeddder and even Shelvin Mack producing when given minutes to do so, while adding in another PG/SG whehter in the draft or as FA's...


In addition to Walter Tavaras, I really like Nikola Jovic *which Denver owns the rights to and is compared to a young Vucevic*
Tavaras could be the next Gobert/Deandre Jordan type of talent/athlete with DEFENSE/REBOUNDING/SHOT BLOCKING, but will have to develop his body and like many rookies will need at least 1 year before they can contribute signifigantly more after adapting to a NBA season and getting a sense of the difference and where to improve on, whether on the court or in the gym..

knicks1248
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5/12/2015  2:18 PM
nixluva wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
Nalod wrote:Phil got 3 with Cartwright and Ho Grant. The committe thing on the second set of 3 was balanced by Rodman and some guys who could hit a midrange shot.
The next 5 rings was with Shaq who had Kobe.

My take away is not so much having a traditional PG as much as guys that play to Point. Call him Pippen, call him Jordan, Call him Kobe. The PG's on Phils teams were usually play off the ball types that can shoot.

Lebron is the defacto PG on his teams.

So basically the offensive weapon need not be defined by position so long as its one of the three ball handling guys.
So you take the best player available.


See this is where your wrong, kobe and jordan both excellent ball handlers no real need for a top notch pg. we don't have one single guard (THJ) that knows how to pass, let alone dribble.

Getting a Center who can post and excel in a PnR with a below avg PG, is non sense and backwards. You can count on one hand the amount of post plays you see in a NBA game today.

You can count on one hand the amount of big man who are a actual threat in the post.

You guys keep talking about not having a traditional PG as if we are planing on running the triangle for a generation, which we won't


You clearly didn't understand what Nalod wrote. He just said that it wasn't necessary that your Point or ball handler/playmaker be an actual PG!!!

Also you completely forgot Shved. Phil targeted Shved based on his skill set and he was able to do things on a lower level that Phil has always had in terms of a big guard who can drive and pass on a good level. Things improved with Shved in the mix and it was a hint at what works. He also tried out Ledo who is a big guard with passing and driving ability. Neither are superstars but you can get the idea just watching how they can be effective.

Dude your missing my point, it was ok for phil to use a sub par ball handlers when you have, jordan, pipen, and kobe . Shved is erratic and inconsistent ( i like him and his skill set) but he's not a starter, and he's not even on the current roster.

Can shved guard curry, rose, irving, teague, Wall or any of the top guards. Can he make them suffer on the defense end, make their night a living hell on a nightly basis. Who's going to do that?

Unless THJ turns into jordan or Kobe, it is so much more important to get that PG position upgraded. Im much more interested in getting a big man who can rebound the hell out of the ball.

ES
JamesLin
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5/12/2015  2:23 PM
BigDaddyG wrote:The answer is that it depends on what's available at the time lol Personally, I think it's easier to craft a team once you have a dominant big in place. There are just so many competent PGs around to plug in than bugs. Our system would benefit from quality playmaker, but it's been proven that it's not a necessity. In Russell's case, I wouldn't be upset if we grabbed him with pick 3 or higher.

I second that. PGs are much easier to get whereas a legit starting center is ... slim picking

Get busy living or get busy dying. ---- Andy Dufresne
RonRon
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5/12/2015  2:28 PM    LAST EDITED: 5/12/2015  2:50 PM
knicks1248 wrote:
nixluva wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
Nalod wrote:Phil got 3 with Cartwright and Ho Grant. The committe thing on the second set of 3 was balanced by Rodman and some guys who could hit a midrange shot.
The next 5 rings was with Shaq who had Kobe.

My take away is not so much having a traditional PG as much as guys that play to Point. Call him Pippen, call him Jordan, Call him Kobe. The PG's on Phils teams were usually play off the ball types that can shoot.

Lebron is the defacto PG on his teams.

So basically the offensive weapon need not be defined by position so long as its one of the three ball handling guys.
So you take the best player available.


See this is where your wrong, kobe and jordan both excellent ball handlers no real need for a top notch pg. we don't have one single guard (THJ) that knows how to pass, let alone dribble.

Getting a Center who can post and excel in a PnR with a below avg PG, is non sense and backwards. You can count on one hand the amount of post plays you see in a NBA game today.

You can count on one hand the amount of big man who are a actual threat in the post.

You guys keep talking about not having a traditional PG as if we are planing on running the triangle for a generation, which we won't


You clearly didn't understand what Nalod wrote. He just said that it wasn't necessary that your Point or ball handler/playmaker be an actual PG!!!

Also you completely forgot Shved. Phil targeted Shved based on his skill set and he was able to do things on a lower level that Phil has always had in terms of a big guard who can drive and pass on a good level. Things improved with Shved in the mix and it was a hint at what works. He also tried out Ledo who is a big guard with passing and driving ability. Neither are superstars but you can get the idea just watching how they can be effective.

Dude your missing my point, it was ok for phil to use a sub par ball handlers when you have, jordan, pipen, and kobe . Shved is erratic and inconsistent ( i like him and his skill set) but he's not a starter, and he's not even on the current roster.

Can shved guard curry, rose, irving, teague, Wall or any of the top guards. Can he make them suffer on the defense end, make their night a living hell on a nightly basis. Who's going to do that?

Unless THJ turns into jordan or Kobe, it is so much more important to get that PG position upgraded. Im much more interested in getting a big man who can rebound the hell out of the ball.

I agree, Shved is a decent prospect but he should be payed as a backup

Aaron Brooks vet min

in wich Ramon Sessions *2year 2.3m*
Bayless and DJ Augustine at about 3m


3.5m
I believe Shved should be payed somewhere in between the above and isn't in the same catogory as the below players, anything after this would be overpaying...
I do not think he is even worth signing the qualifying offer for and unless he can agree to a short term deal at under his qualifying offer for further anaylsis with the opportunity to win a starting job in training camp, he would likely be playing as a backup or 3rd string backup elsewhere, so he can take advantage of his opportunity in NYK's and be payed when the cap rises if he proves he is either a STARTER or quality backup/rotation player and be able to see what type of contract players will be getting when the cap rises

Maybe a player option at best for 2nd year *2017* but if he goes this route, I would offer him less money *2.5m-2.7m or under* and more money *3m to 3.5m at best*


and


then there is the FULL MLE type money with

Shaun Livingston
Darren Collison
Isiah Thomas

With the rise of the cap in 2017, will teams look to overpay for contract this season, locking up deals at discount, or some could look to save money for the class of 2017 FA's
Whether happens, there will teams doing either or, and it will have a multiple ripple effect, in which I would rather let some teams spend their money first and look for value after players after, with possible trades to absorb contracts for picks

It really depends on how Phil Jackson will do and what trade offers he can get in order to improve the team with our pick this summer, and many teams having multiple picks that could be bought
If he will take bad contracts this season to get more young talent or not, if he will try to build a play off contender by this summer, and how he will approach the FA class of 2017
It is hard to speculate what plan he has in place right now without even knowing the draft order with Philly having a possiblity of acquiring Laker's 1st rounder if they fall out of their predicted position

If teams are willing to overpay and go on a bidding war for our pick that would give us more assets in the process
If we will have enough talent to lure FA's in this class and next summer with the bump of the cap to attract TIER 1 talents....
We must remember that the TAX and COST OF LIVING *PROPERTY with house or rent* is 10x higher than almost everywhere else, where teams without STATE TAX in Texas and Florida have a huge advantage
Also these ALL STARs are still human beings with FAMILY and CHILDREN, that already have houses and their families have a level of comfort along with themsvles with houses/already and most players do not want to change all of that
However, with New York, if we can put together a team that can actually contend for a ring, the possible endorsements these guys will make will increase as there are NYK's fan all over the entire U.S. and international as well
Phil Jackson is looking to sell this point if he can accumulate the talent needed to do so, as well as building a strong foundation from the bottom up, and should spend money on develoment coaches/trainers if we decide to go young this summer to showcase young talent that could ultimately draw interest for


Tier 1
Durant/Lebron/WHiteside/Pau Gasol/Noah/Al Horford


or/and lower tiers like Derozan, Battum, Gallo Wilson Chandler, AL Jefferson *older*
DJ Augstine, Randy Foye, Hickson/Speights, Lee, James Johnson/Patrick Peterson


and then the continued development young players of

and future STARS in the making on bad teams like

Jordan Clarkson as a RFA, MCW,

MKG, Harison Barnes etc...

Continued development young glue players of
Tyler Johnson, Justin Holiday, Jabari Brown, James Mcadoo and players of that sort

BigDaddyG
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5/12/2015  2:47 PM
franco12 wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:See the ewing era.... He never got that pg he needed. I actually think this era of basketball is a pg era, Conley, curry, teague, wall, irving, rose,paul, those are the pg's currently in the playoffs. If you want to tell me you can put any old pg out there against this type of talent, then you are stupid.

I agree.

And just from a kind of eye test - who has helped Houston more- Harden or Dwight?

It just seems to me that a highly skilled wing player (SF, SG, PG) who is able to attack and break down the defense has more impact than a big who might command a double team.

And if we're talking about our system, the triangle, Phil won more rings with a center by committee than he did with a super dominant center.

And speaking of Shaq- would the league even let him play the way he did then? Maybe, though it seems a double standard that bigs can play rough but just putting your hand out on a wing player the wrong way is a foul.


Don't forget, it wasn't that long ago when Howard carried a bunch of solid, but flawed players to the finals in Orlando. That team featured a style of play similar to what Duke used this year. Jameer Nelson was solid, but he was no star.
Always... always remember: Less is less. More is more. More is better and twice as much is good too. Not enough is bad, and too much is never enough except when it's just about right. - The Tick
Nalod
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5/12/2015  5:33 PM
Because there are so few dominant bigs in the league, one should ignore one when available?
Thats stupid.
Cuz Larue Martin, Sam Bowie and Greg Oden were busts we should not draft a potential all star big?
Russell is not a sure thing. THere is no sure thing. No generational type that is head above. Not to say one won't be.
Take the best player available.
knickscity
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5/12/2015  5:44 PM
Almost every team has a dominant guard or pg specifically, some have both. very few have centers, and the ones who do usually are neutralized. Even if we draft a big we still need to match up to the league full of guards.
nixluva
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5/12/2015  6:45 PM
knickscity wrote:Almost every team has a dominant guard or pg specifically, some have both. very few have centers, and the ones who do usually are neutralized. Even if we draft a big we still need to match up to the league full of guards.

Phil wants to improve the team's defense. Part of that is rim protection and the other part is having capable perimeter defenders. He won two titles with great perimeter D against 3pt shooting.

2008-09 Opponent 3P%: .345 Lg Rank: 3
2009-10 Opponent 3P%: .328 Lg Rank: 1

Knicks1969
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5/13/2015  1:30 PM
nixluva wrote:
knickscity wrote:Almost every team has a dominant guard or pg specifically, some have both. very few have centers, and the ones who do usually are neutralized. Even if we draft a big we still need to match up to the league full of guards.

Phil wants to improve the team's defense. Part of that is rim protection and the other part is having capable perimeter defenders. He won two titles with great perimeter D against 3pt shooting.

2008-09 Opponent 3P%: .345 Lg Rank: 3
2009-10 Opponent 3P%: .328 Lg Rank: 1

If that is the case, he needs to trade the pick to a team that can draft both Stein and Winslow. The other big dude from Kentucky can also get the job done defensively. He is a true 7 footer, rebounds well, block shots, and has an offensive game.

Thank God Fisher is no longer our coach, now let's get Calderon out of here:)
Cartman718
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5/13/2015  5:58 PM
if you can get a great big man, you always go for that, elite PGs are available in EVERY draft.
Nixluva is posting triangle screen grabs, even when nobody asks - Fishmike. LOL So are we going to reference that thread like the bible now? "The thread of Wroten Page 14 post 9" - EnySpree
knickscity
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5/13/2015  6:02 PM
Cartman718 wrote:if you can get a great big man, you always go for that, elite PGs are available in EVERY draft.

None of these bigs are great, they are all flawed.
Cartman718
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Member: #1694

5/13/2015  6:05 PM
knickscity wrote:
Cartman718 wrote:if you can get a great big man, you always go for that, elite PGs are available in EVERY draft.

None of these bigs are great, they are all flawed.

that was not the question of the thread though

Nixluva is posting triangle screen grabs, even when nobody asks - Fishmike. LOL So are we going to reference that thread like the bible now? "The thread of Wroten Page 14 post 9" - EnySpree
Does the game start from the PG position or the Center spot?

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