TPercy wrote:Prior to being in denver, will barton has been a horrible shooter..career 3p is 24 percent and career ts is 47%

I think that when you overload advanced stats you cannot see the trees through the forest.

First I was able to watch Will barton and through my eyes I saw one hecvuva looking prospect.--check
Next step follow such player when you can--see if he can play like what you saw against other teams--check
Give him extended playing time and see what he can do with it--check
Age athletic ability usage--check

He's a baby who looks like he can be one nice piece. FIRST chance hes gotten at extended minutes hes 12-5-2-1 46.5% 35% in 25 minutes and hes a solid athletic defender--long. Other than volume 3 point shooting for the money Barton is a better player per cost of dollar with more upside than Green. Because Green is on the Spurs hes going to cost big $$ money he is not NEARLY worth. You do have to overpay in FA--but the Spurs are smart--they wont pay him big--they will simply go back to their formula of find another for cheap. The second round of this draft will be UNPRECEDENTED in G talent and it spills over to undrafted. I'm sure we can find a steal there if we look hard. Id like to keep my options open. Id be happy with Kanter Barton and a premium draft pick--then I have money to be opportunistic with--see what still on the table and if not good enough keep open for during the year or to just sign solid 1 year contracts. If I waive Calderon I essentially sign Shveyd for nothing. So Im spending 23.5 mm on the draft pick Barton and Kanter which should leave me open around 6-7mm

Bonn1997 wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

callmened wrote:here are my goals

1. Draft pick = Towns/Cauley stein?okafor
2. SG shooter = Dgreen or G.Green (for about $7-9mill)
3. SF wing = Middleton or T.Harris ($8-12mill)
4. Defensive wings = KJ McDaniels/Carroll/G.Henderson/D.Wright ($6mill)
5. stop gap PGs = Beverley/Mo williams ($5mill) = the better ones like Dragic wont be avail
6. Back up bigs = Seraphin/BWright/O'Quinn ($3 mill)

that comes out to about $35

7. Keep the scrubs we have now as back up 10-15 roster men: Shved/Thomas/Amundson/Smith/Galloway

Lineup
PG Beveley = 3&D guy
SG D. Green = 3&D guy
SF Harris = young SF
PF Melo = PF now with age and bad knee
C Towns = young big man
---------------
Bench
PG Shved - tall PG
SG THardaway = maybe he becomes consistent
SF KJ McDaniel - athletic wing defender
PF Seraphin/OQuinn - young post man
C Wright - defender
------------------
Scrubs/Depth
SG Galloway - hes earned it
SF Thomas - sure why not
PF Amundsen - sure hes earned it
C Smith - nice mid range game
C Bynum - why not?!

Overall = i think this team could be good enough to win 40 games and get knocked out in the 1st rd. the following yr when there are REAL free agents, Id look to sign PG Conley

Do people ever realize that Danny Green avg barely 10 points twice in his career? We want to hand out 9mm to Danny Green?

Kanter's career avg is 9.9

If Green is in the right role he is one of the those no-stats, advanced metrics all-stars.

There's no basis for that caveat - he's never been in a "wrong role"

Vmart wrote:Until the Knicks know what position they will be drafting only then they will be able to formulate a plan of action. If the Knicks select 3 or 4 then look for the Knicks to target bigs in FA. But if they draft 1-2 look for them to target guards in FA. Unless of course Phil takes Mudiay with the 2nd pick. Which is not out of the realm of possibilities. In which case targeting Kanter and Gasol would be a possibility.

Free agency and the drafting process are two separate animals. I do not really see a scenario where I wouldnt do one thing because of the other.

callmened wrote:here are my goals

1. Draft pick = Towns/Cauley stein?okafor
2. SG shooter = Dgreen or G.Green (for about $7-9mill)
3. SF wing = Middleton or T.Harris ($8-12mill)
4. Defensive wings = KJ McDaniels/Carroll/G.Henderson/D.Wright ($6mill)
5. stop gap PGs = Beverley/Mo williams/KJoseph ($5mill) = the better ones like Dragic wont be avail
6. Back up bigs = Seraphin/BWright/O'Quinn/Ajinca ($3 mill)

that comes out to about $35

7. Keep the scrubs we have now as back up 10-15 roster men: Shved/Thomas/Amundson/Smith/Galloway

Lineup
PG Beveley = 3&D guy
SG D. Green = 3&D guy
SF Harris = young SF
PF Melo = PF now with age and bad knee
C Towns = young big man
---------------
Bench
PG Shved - tall PG
SG THardaway = maybe he becomes consistent
SF KJ McDaniel - athletic wing defender
PF Seraphin/OQuinn - young post man
C Wright - defender
------------------
Scrubs/Depth
SG Galloway - hes earned it
SF Thomas - sure why not
PF Amundsen - sure hes earned it
C Smith - nice mid range game
C Bynum - why not?!

Overall = i think this team could be good enough to win 40 games and get knocked out in the 1st rd. the following yr when there are REAL free agents, Id look to sign PG Conley

BALANCE is key but i also realize we have limited resources. There are more wings to invest in than PGs. Id rather invest in wings to surround a young big man and melo. the following yr go after a PG. my hope is that the triangle wont be needed as much in the triangle and we can get by. At this point, im looking for role players this summer.

Vmart wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

Vmart wrote:Until the Knicks know what position they will be drafting only then they will be able to formulate a plan of action. If the Knicks select 3 or 4 then look for the Knicks to target bigs in FA. But if they draft 1-2 look for them to target guards in FA. Unless of course Phil takes Mudiay with the 2nd pick. Which is not out of the realm of possibilities. In which case targeting Kanter and Gasol would be a possibility.

Free agency and the drafting process are two separate animals. I do not really see a scenario where I wouldnt do one thing because of the other.

Balance is important the Knicks have holes to fill. I don't see why you would want fill the same hole with similar type players.

I dont see too much similarities between draftees and free agents. The drafted players will need a little bit of time as well.

mreinman wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

callmened wrote:here are my goals

1. Draft pick = Towns/Cauley stein?okafor
2. SG shooter = Dgreen or G.Green (for about $7-9mill)
3. SF wing = Middleton or T.Harris ($8-12mill)
4. Defensive wings = KJ McDaniels/Carroll/G.Henderson/D.Wright ($6mill)
5. stop gap PGs = Beverley/Mo williams ($5mill) = the better ones like Dragic wont be avail
6. Back up bigs = Seraphin/BWright/O'Quinn ($3 mill)

that comes out to about $35

7. Keep the scrubs we have now as back up 10-15 roster men: Shved/Thomas/Amundson/Smith/Galloway

Lineup
PG Beveley = 3&D guy
SG D. Green = 3&D guy
SF Harris = young SF
PF Melo = PF now with age and bad knee
C Towns = young big man
---------------
Bench
PG Shved - tall PG
SG THardaway = maybe he becomes consistent
SF KJ McDaniel - athletic wing defender
PF Seraphin/OQuinn - young post man
C Wright - defender
------------------
Scrubs/Depth
SG Galloway - hes earned it
SF Thomas - sure why not
PF Amundsen - sure hes earned it
C Smith - nice mid range game
C Bynum - why not?!

Overall = i think this team could be good enough to win 40 games and get knocked out in the 1st rd. the following yr when there are REAL free agents, Id look to sign PG Conley

Do people ever realize that Danny Green avg barely 10 points twice in his career? We want to hand out 9mm to Danny Green?

this was the same faulty argument used with Lowry.

Who cares how many points you score.

We should care about productive minutes.

nixluva wrote:

mreinman wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

callmened wrote:here are my goals

1. Draft pick = Towns/Cauley stein?okafor
2. SG shooter = Dgreen or G.Green (for about $7-9mill)
3. SF wing = Middleton or T.Harris ($8-12mill)
4. Defensive wings = KJ McDaniels/Carroll/G.Henderson/D.Wright ($6mill)
5. stop gap PGs = Beverley/Mo williams ($5mill) = the better ones like Dragic wont be avail
6. Back up bigs = Seraphin/BWright/O'Quinn ($3 mill)

that comes out to about $35

7. Keep the scrubs we have now as back up 10-15 roster men: Shved/Thomas/Amundson/Smith/Galloway

Lineup
PG Beveley = 3&D guy
SG D. Green = 3&D guy
SF Harris = young SF
PF Melo = PF now with age and bad knee
C Towns = young big man
---------------
Bench
PG Shved - tall PG
SG THardaway = maybe he becomes consistent
SF KJ McDaniel - athletic wing defender
PF Seraphin/OQuinn - young post man
C Wright - defender
------------------
Scrubs/Depth
SG Galloway - hes earned it
SF Thomas - sure why not
PF Amundsen - sure hes earned it
C Smith - nice mid range game
C Bynum - why not?!

Overall = i think this team could be good enough to win 40 games and get knocked out in the 1st rd. the following yr when there are REAL free agents, Id look to sign PG Conley

Do people ever realize that Danny Green avg barely 10 points twice in his career? We want to hand out 9mm to Danny Green?

this was the same faulty argument used with Lowry.

Who cares how many points you score.

We should care about productive minutes.

Yeah I thought we all pretty much agreed that we wanted the most productive and efficient players we can get. That was the point of the WS/48 thread and other such threads using data to find the most efficient players out there. We need a higher quality of player. Guys who are productive no matter how many minutes they play.

Yup ... exactly

TripleThreat wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:Draft #1 Towns
Sign Enes Kanter 4 years 64mm
Sign Will Barton 3 years 12mm
Resign Schveyd 3 years 15mm
Waive and stretch Jose Calderon
Keep Hardaway Early Galloway Aldrich--invite Ledo to SL .

A frontline of Towns ( assuming the Knicks can get him) plus Kanter at PF and Melo at SF would be a sieve of a defensive unit.

I believe Towns has the capacity and skill set and talent to be a plus defender, but odds are, he won't be fully developed defensively as a rookie. Kanter and Melo are established net negative defenders. Add in Tim Hardaway and Shved and you'd have a pretty porous defense.

Easiest way to hurt a rookie pivot and his development is to lay nearly the entire defensive weight of the starting unit on his back.

The Knicks just got done after years after overpaying non defensive power forwards who cannot stretch the floor with the three ball, so your scenario includes giving max dollars to another non defensive power forward who cannot stretch the floor with three ball.

1) Defense matters
2) Floor spacing matters
3) Roster fit matters
4) Asking a player to do something he has shown over time he simply cannot do is not a plan for success
5) Getting help across the wings is critical for the Knicks. Absolutely critical.

Kanter's overall game is being severely discounted. He's going to be a fine NBA defender and he could easily be the number 1 rebounder in the entire NBA right now and if not top 3. Defense and rebounding go hand in hand. Kanter has shown an ability to block/alter shots that I have seen and seems like a very willing and actually somewhat savvy passer. He also possess the ability to score 30 or more points in the post at a very high clip from 18 feet and in. That is EXTREMELY rare and hes all of 22(If he was being drafted as a senior--hed go #1). With two 6-6 guards and a defensive minded C--that would be much MORE than on the first 5 and along the lines of any current NBA team. The #1 player the Knicks need right now is a high end pivot--right now Enes Kanter is the best available free agent--better than gasol better than Monroe. The only player I see as close--because hes a better shot blocker is Brook Lopez But Kanter is the only top rebounder in the league capable of scoring 25 points a night on most occasions.

TripleThreat wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:Kanter's overall game is being severely discounted.

Kanters game, by most here, is being evaluated over a period of seasons, not just the last 15-20 games.

What's more likely? The Kanter seen before the trade and the past few seasons is what the Knicks will get?

Or the Kanter with a very small sample size, on a team gutted with injury and trade, where the Alpha player Westbrook is commanding near full time triple team coverage on defense?

Your proposed fit for Kanter requires not one, but several other contingencies to fall into place. Also for players to shift against their established trends of production/skill sets.

IMHO, that is not a plan for success.

Yep it sure has and the best GM in the game chose to trade for him. And since he did he has exploded. If you watched one quarter of one game--you'd understand what Im talking about. If anything Westbrook last night took the ball out of Kanter's hands when things were going good --he was headed for a 40-20 game. Again its hard to make secondary comments when you obviously dont watch the games.

BRIGGS wrote:Actually putting up a maximum frontloaded contract at Kanter is an easy decision. Phil had Sam Presti do his footwork--he doesnt have a better scout than Sam. Now for once maybe Jim Dolans pocketbook will actually work for the Knicks

You can't frontload a max deal. By its definition a max deal has max raises each year. Also, there's no way Sam Presti is the best GM in the league. He traded Harden for basically nothing... because he refused to amnesty Kendrick ****ing Perkins one of the worst players in the league; he hasn't nailed a draft pick in years; he just traded a 1st rounder for Dion Waiters, another one of the worst players in the league. Here is three years worth of OKC transactions; does that look like the record of the best GM in the league?