nixluva wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

nixluva wrote:Feel bad for KD. I LOVE him as a player.

As for the Knicks, there's IMO ZERO chance that they make a deal for him. There's no reason to take the chance when we can get our own Franchise player this summer without taking the risk. Anyone who tries to push this rumor is just living in a world of Knick cliche. Phil specifically mentioned the McDyess deal as a huge mistake. Why would he then do the same thing again?

Did he actually mention the McDyess deal as a mistake? Do you have a link? Sincere question. That would make me feel much better about the draft.

This is why I keep posting what Phil ACTUALLY says over and over on this forum, just so we have all the facts and the most accurate info on what Phil really thinks as opposed to all the media stuff and some fans that dislike him posting things he hasn't said.

“[People] have told me many times that there’s been this impression that maybe the team should blow it up and should start over again and it’s never happened,” Jackson said. “It’s always been going after the next big star, Antonio McDyess and so forth and so on. We all know that history of the Knicks in the past. I was there when we went out and got Spencer Haywood and then we went out and got Bob McAdoo and we kept searching for the big star to change our fortunes, which has never happened over the last 45 years or so.

“The reality is this is probably the best way to go about the business. And to begin and to restart and to do it the right way and put it together in a way that really makes sense instead of bringing dominant people in to try and fit into this jigsaw puzzle makes it pretty difficult. We hope we’re on the right track even though this isn’t the track we anticipated.”

That's just swell, but the way he handled the Melo deal obliterates all of that. His actions negate his words. We'll just have to see what this franchise does and I mean franchise, not just Phil Jackson, because this idea that he is fully in charge is ludicrous IMO.

Splat wrote:

nixluva wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

nixluva wrote:Feel bad for KD. I LOVE him as a player.

As for the Knicks, there's IMO ZERO chance that they make a deal for him. There's no reason to take the chance when we can get our own Franchise player this summer without taking the risk. Anyone who tries to push this rumor is just living in a world of Knick cliche. Phil specifically mentioned the McDyess deal as a huge mistake. Why would he then do the same thing again?

Did he actually mention the McDyess deal as a mistake? Do you have a link? Sincere question. That would make me feel much better about the draft.

This is why I keep posting what Phil ACTUALLY says over and over on this forum, just so we have all the facts and the most accurate info on what Phil really thinks as opposed to all the media stuff and some fans that dislike him posting things he hasn't said.

“[People] have told me many times that there’s been this impression that maybe the team should blow it up and should start over again and it’s never happened,” Jackson said. “It’s always been going after the next big star, Antonio McDyess and so forth and so on. We all know that history of the Knicks in the past. I was there when we went out and got Spencer Haywood and then we went out and got Bob McAdoo and we kept searching for the big star to change our fortunes, which has never happened over the last 45 years or so.

“The reality is this is probably the best way to go about the business. And to begin and to restart and to do it the right way and put it together in a way that really makes sense instead of bringing dominant people in to try and fit into this jigsaw puzzle makes it pretty difficult. We hope we’re on the right track even though this isn’t the track we anticipated.”

That's just swell, but the way he handled the Melo deal obliterates all of that. His actions negate his words. We'll just have to see what this franchise does and I mean franchise, not just Phil Jackson, because this idea that he is fully in charge is ludicrous IMO.

I honestly think Phil is in charge and Dolan is giving him the Sather treatment. It makes sense that Dolan would trust Phil to eventually get results like Sather did after it initially didn't look so good.

Love's back is more bothersome than disclosed. On two days rest he is avg. 22 and 11 shooting 58%!! one day rest about 45%, back to back 34%. Says 1st quarters are much better than rest of games as well. Its his "proof" of his opinion.

Says Durant was bought back "early" but the odds were in OKC's favor but sometimes the odds don't play out. Says most players return just fine from the surgery he is having. Stated he did a bit of research. Thinks if OKC comes back strong next year they gain a strong chance of keeping him. The playbook now is if a player wants to leave you trade him a year before he is free. Lebron changed the playbook. You ask for commitment and if you don't get it you trade that player.

Windhorst made no mention of Melo. Did not even use a word whose first letter started with "M".

Splat wrote:

nixluva wrote:

Splat wrote:

nixluva wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

nixluva wrote:Feel bad for KD. I LOVE him as a player.

As for the Knicks, there's IMO ZERO chance that they make a deal for him. There's no reason to take the chance when we can get our own Franchise player this summer without taking the risk. Anyone who tries to push this rumor is just living in a world of Knick cliche. Phil specifically mentioned the McDyess deal as a huge mistake. Why would he then do the same thing again?

Did he actually mention the McDyess deal as a mistake? Do you have a link? Sincere question. That would make me feel much better about the draft.

This is why I keep posting what Phil ACTUALLY says over and over on this forum, just so we have all the facts and the most accurate info on what Phil really thinks as opposed to all the media stuff and some fans that dislike him posting things he hasn't said.

“[People] have told me many times that there’s been this impression that maybe the team should blow it up and should start over again and it’s never happened,” Jackson said. “It’s always been going after the next big star, Antonio McDyess and so forth and so on. We all know that history of the Knicks in the past. I was there when we went out and got Spencer Haywood and then we went out and got Bob McAdoo and we kept searching for the big star to change our fortunes, which has never happened over the last 45 years or so.

“The reality is this is probably the best way to go about the business. And to begin and to restart and to do it the right way and put it together in a way that really makes sense instead of bringing dominant people in to try and fit into this jigsaw puzzle makes it pretty difficult. We hope we’re on the right track even though this isn’t the track we anticipated.”

That's just swell, but the way he handled the Melo deal obliterates all of that. His actions negate his words. We'll just have to see what this franchise does and I mean franchise, not just Phil Jackson, because this idea that he is fully in charge is ludicrous IMO.

I honestly think Phil is in charge and Dolan is giving him the Sather treatment. It makes sense that Dolan would trust Phil to eventually get results like Sather did after it initially didn't look so good.

If that is the case, then it negates your point even further, because the way Phil handled the Melo negotiations and contract exhibited little prudence or savvy. He overpaid for an aging, already damaged star. It would be one thing if Melo was signed in the off-season from another club, but he had played here 4.5 seasons already and if this franchise couldn't figure out the wear and tear on Melo's body made him an extreme risk when calculated against the contract given, then I'd say Phil's comments about McDyess hold about as much water as a spaghetti strainer.

Realistically, what were Phil's options??..If he doesn't sign Melo then who??...And who do you think is coming here to play with the current group minus Melo??..

Splat wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Splat wrote:

nixluva wrote:

Splat wrote:

nixluva wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

nixluva wrote:Feel bad for KD. I LOVE him as a player.

As for the Knicks, there's IMO ZERO chance that they make a deal for him. There's no reason to take the chance when we can get our own Franchise player this summer without taking the risk. Anyone who tries to push this rumor is just living in a world of Knick cliche. Phil specifically mentioned the McDyess deal as a huge mistake. Why would he then do the same thing again?

Did he actually mention the McDyess deal as a mistake? Do you have a link? Sincere question. That would make me feel much better about the draft.

This is why I keep posting what Phil ACTUALLY says over and over on this forum, just so we have all the facts and the most accurate info on what Phil really thinks as opposed to all the media stuff and some fans that dislike him posting things he hasn't said.

“[People] have told me many times that there’s been this impression that maybe the team should blow it up and should start over again and it’s never happened,” Jackson said. “It’s always been going after the next big star, Antonio McDyess and so forth and so on. We all know that history of the Knicks in the past. I was there when we went out and got Spencer Haywood and then we went out and got Bob McAdoo and we kept searching for the big star to change our fortunes, which has never happened over the last 45 years or so.

“The reality is this is probably the best way to go about the business. And to begin and to restart and to do it the right way and put it together in a way that really makes sense instead of bringing dominant people in to try and fit into this jigsaw puzzle makes it pretty difficult. We hope we’re on the right track even though this isn’t the track we anticipated.”

That's just swell, but the way he handled the Melo deal obliterates all of that. His actions negate his words. We'll just have to see what this franchise does and I mean franchise, not just Phil Jackson, because this idea that he is fully in charge is ludicrous IMO.

I honestly think Phil is in charge and Dolan is giving him the Sather treatment. It makes sense that Dolan would trust Phil to eventually get results like Sather did after it initially didn't look so good.

If that is the case, then it negates your point even further, because the way Phil handled the Melo negotiations and contract exhibited little prudence or savvy. He overpaid for an aging, already damaged star. It would be one thing if Melo was signed in the off-season from another club, but he had played here 4.5 seasons already and if this franchise couldn't figure out the wear and tear on Melo's body made him an extreme risk when calculated against the contract given, then I'd say Phil's comments about McDyess hold about as much water as a spaghetti strainer.

Realistically, what were Phil's options??..If he doesn't sign Melo then who??...And who do you think is coming here to play with the current group minus Melo??..

Your questions indicate you felt the contract was prudent and there was no alternative. You make it sound like Phil had a gun to his head and had no choices. And that may well be true, but not for the reasons you are alluding to. Phil probably took the job with the requirement he resign Melo.

Either way, it looks like terrible management.

If Dolan stipulated it at all costs, then Phil is nothing more than another Dolan henchman and questions about his autonomy are moot.

If Phil offered that deal fully under his own volition, then he paid through the nose and gave ridiculous terms no other team would ever have given. And if Phil had full autonomy and he was willing to give those terms to an already hobbling player, then that says everything you need to know about his judgment.

And you suggest he had no choice? Either he did have autonomy or he did not. If he did, then he had every opportunity to construct a sign and trade with another team and get back assets. This idea that nothing but what happened could be done is false.

And even if they let him walk, then that would have been the right thing to do. Now he's damaged goods and you'd be lucky to get a bag of chips for him. That's real slick.

No...I pretty sure you are a fine reader...If he didn't resign Melo then the team would look like it does now...No FA would then come to NY to be part of what you are currently watching...That's bad management...Phil is 70 years old..He wants to rebuild thru free agency starting next season...How many players are good as Melo do you think he would have had a realistic shot at??

And regarding Dolan telling Phil he had to resign Melo before he took the job:

http://espn.go.com/new-york/nba/story/_/id/11691714/phil-jackson-new-york-knicks-james-dolan-meddle-decisions

Phil Jackson: I have free reign

NEW YORK -- Knicks president Phil Jackson believes owner James Dolan has been "forced to meddle" in basketball decisions in the past. But Jackson said he has received assurances from Dolan that it won't happen again as long as he's running the team.

Jackson said Sunday that he spoke to Dolan about having full autonomy to make basketball decisions before he accepted the job as Knicks president.

"I was point blank and honest with him and said, 'If I walk into your office or call you up on the telephone and tell you that I want to trade X player who's an All-Star or Y player who's the fans' favorite, if I think it's the right move, I want you to feel confident that I can do this, will you give me the liberty to do this?' And he said yes, and that's really the key," Jackson said while speaking at The New Yorker Festival in Manhattan.

Jackson's authority extended to the team's decision to re-sign Carmelo Anthony, according to the team president. Dolan told Jackson before he took the job in March that if Jackson didn't feel signing Anthony was the "right direction to go, then you don't have to sign him."

"I had that liberty to make that choice and needed to have that to come and do the job the right way," said Jackson, who inked a five-year, $60 million deal to run the Knicks.

Jackson ultimately re-signed Anthony to a five-year, $124 million contract.

"He has just touched the surface of his greatness, and I think we have a guy that has a lot more to offer," Jackson said of the 30-year-old Anthony.

Dolan has a strong relationship with Anthony, and many observers wondered whether he would strong-arm Jackson during negotiations with Anthony over the summer.

Dolan has had a history of interfering with decisions made by his basketball executives. One of the most oft-cited instances came in 2011, when he orchestrated the team's trade for Anthony over the wishes of then-GM Donnie Walsh. Dolan also fired then-GM Glen Grunwald days before the past season's training camp. Grunwald built a team that won 54 games in the regular season and snapped the franchise's 13-year streak without a playoff series win.

Jackson addressed Dolan's meddling with basketball decisions Sunday.

"He has this tremendous competitive drive and wants to really do well," Jackson said. "In the process, he's gotten involved in basketball simply because things have happened in this organization that have irritated him.

"Some of the ways that the teams have been handled, some of the decisions that have been made on players that were brought in and were costly to the organization, hampered and handcuffed them to making changes. So he felt obliged and obligated to get involved in it so he could correct the inadequacies or errant direction in which the organization was going. ... So he's been involved in it on some level, and as a result there are some things that have happened where he's looked like he's meddled. And I think he had to meddle at some point. He was almost forced to meddle in some situations. That word meddle might be a little bit harsh to even use."

Dolan has said that he isn't as involved with the team now that Jackson has taken over.

He instead has chosen to focus on working with his blues band, JD and the Straight Shot.

"Hopefully, I can allow him to [play music] and relieve him of many of the pressure that's about basketball," Jackson said. "And we can go forward, and he can enjoy what he's doing in the musical world."

holfresh wrote:

Splat wrote:

nixluva wrote:

Splat wrote:

nixluva wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

nixluva wrote:Feel bad for KD. I LOVE him as a player.

As for the Knicks, there's IMO ZERO chance that they make a deal for him. There's no reason to take the chance when we can get our own Franchise player this summer without taking the risk. Anyone who tries to push this rumor is just living in a world of Knick cliche. Phil specifically mentioned the McDyess deal as a huge mistake. Why would he then do the same thing again?

Did he actually mention the McDyess deal as a mistake? Do you have a link? Sincere question. That would make me feel much better about the draft.

This is why I keep posting what Phil ACTUALLY says over and over on this forum, just so we have all the facts and the most accurate info on what Phil really thinks as opposed to all the media stuff and some fans that dislike him posting things he hasn't said.

“[People] have told me many times that there’s been this impression that maybe the team should blow it up and should start over again and it’s never happened,” Jackson said. “It’s always been going after the next big star, Antonio McDyess and so forth and so on. We all know that history of the Knicks in the past. I was there when we went out and got Spencer Haywood and then we went out and got Bob McAdoo and we kept searching for the big star to change our fortunes, which has never happened over the last 45 years or so.

“The reality is this is probably the best way to go about the business. And to begin and to restart and to do it the right way and put it together in a way that really makes sense instead of bringing dominant people in to try and fit into this jigsaw puzzle makes it pretty difficult. We hope we’re on the right track even though this isn’t the track we anticipated.”

That's just swell, but the way he handled the Melo deal obliterates all of that. His actions negate his words. We'll just have to see what this franchise does and I mean franchise, not just Phil Jackson, because this idea that he is fully in charge is ludicrous IMO.

I honestly think Phil is in charge and Dolan is giving him the Sather treatment. It makes sense that Dolan would trust Phil to eventually get results like Sather did after it initially didn't look so good.

If that is the case, then it negates your point even further, because the way Phil handled the Melo negotiations and contract exhibited little prudence or savvy. He overpaid for an aging, already damaged star. It would be one thing if Melo was signed in the off-season from another club, but he had played here 4.5 seasons already and if this franchise couldn't figure out the wear and tear on Melo's body made him an extreme risk when calculated against the contract given, then I'd say Phil's comments about McDyess hold about as much water as a spaghetti strainer.

Realistically, what were Phil's options??..If he doesn't sign Melo then who??...And who do you think is coming here to play with the current group minus Melo??..

he started with a firm stance-- "we'll be fine with or without him"-- and then we witnessed a sudden, complete rolling over and overpaying. same thing happened with the melo negotiations the first time around. the first trade had dolan's paw prints all over it. of that there can be no doubt. this second time around had the no-trade clause in it, which is a smoking gun and very dolan-like-- kind of like throwing in mozgov. where there's smoke there's fire. so what is jackson supposed to do? how about not taking the gig for 60 million if it means not having complete autonomy?

you CAN'T build AROUND melo. you CAN'T even build WITH melo. the only thing you can do is ADD melo to a contender in a kind of sixth man scorer's role. and now that he is breaking down-- did the knicks even perform a physical as due diligence?-- his signing is looking like the millstone it was always going to be.

nixluva wrote:Feel bad for KD. I LOVE him as a player.

As for the Knicks, there's IMO ZERO chance that they make a deal for him. There's no reason to take the chance when we can get our own Franchise player this summer without taking the risk. Anyone who tries to push this rumor is just living in a world of Knick cliche. Phil specifically mentioned the McDyess deal as a huge mistake. Why would he then do the same thing again?

The salary cap will shoot up so high that the max salary slot could hit 30 Million a year.
That is what most analysts were projecting Durant would command before his surgery announcement.

Surely if a max slot hits 30, Melo at 23 is actually a really nice deal.
After next season when all teams overpay that free agent class the Salary cap will increase dramatically again because the average of all salaries will be significantly affected by the new contracts at a much higher rate.

So a huge increase in Salary cap in 2016
Then a big bump in 2017 as a result of previous year's signings well above league average as it currently stands.

So in short, locking Melo long term was actually a very good deal that will reap rewards for the Knicks in the coming seasons.

Melo, + 2015 Rookie, + 2015 Free Agent signing, + whatever we keep from the current bunch is not a bad start.
Once you add the above to the 2016 free agent signing, we will likely have at least 3 potential all-stars on the team at one time.

I'm not gonna sit and complain about a bad year that will net us a top pick, because the future looks very bright beyond this season.

nyvector16 wrote:"He was smart enough to know that overpaying in 2014 would be viewed differently in 2016."
You are exactly right Knixkik.

The salary cap will shoot up so high that the max salary slot could hit 30 Million a year.
That is what most analysts were projecting Durant would command before his surgery announcement.

Surely if a max slot hits 30, Melo at 23 is actually a really nice deal.
After next season when all teams overpay that free agent class the Salary cap will increase dramatically again because the average of all salaries will be significantly affected by the new contracts at a much higher rate.

So a huge increase in Salary cap in 2016
Then a big bump in 2017 as a result of previous year's signings well above league average as it currently stands.

So in short, locking Melo long term was actually a very good deal that will reap rewards for the Knicks in the coming seasons.

Melo, + 2015 Rookie, + 2015 Free Agent signing, + whatever we keep from the current bunch is not a bad start.
Once you add the above to the 2016 free agent signing, we will likely have at least 3 potential all-stars on the team at one time.

I'm not gonna sit and complain about a bad year that will net us a top pick, because the future looks very bright beyond this season.

I'm glad someone else sees it that way. I understand people who felt Phil was overpaying Melo at the top of the signing, but still thinking that way is very narrow-minded and extremely short-sighted. We are wayyy beyond that argument now. Whether or not Phil saw the future is unknown, but Melo is absolutely not overpaid, when he would likely command 30 mil next summer as a free agent, and whether it was the knicks or another team, someone would give him that money no doubt about it. We locked him in early, have plenty of flexibility for the future, and people are still complaining like it's their own lunch money they are spending. The salary cap will be 100 mil before we know it, the idea of someone being overpaid on the current salary cap is just plain outdated thinking.