CashMoney wrote:

nixluva wrote:

CashMoney wrote:The triangle works as long as you have the best player in the league playing along with a loaded roster.

Actually they ran the Triangle great even without Jordan. Things will look an awful lot different once Phil revamps the roster. It's always about the talent 1st. No system can work at its best without talent, tho some systems are better suited to a lack of talent than the Triangle. Also some players will look better in the Triangle than in other systems.

Yeah they did but Pippen was a top 5 player at the time.

One guy plus a bunch of role players. I think we tend to assume Phil always had a big 3 but he really didn't. There were times it was just 2 top players and a lot of guys that weren't that special. Still every coach needs talent to win and I see no reason we should be different regardless of the system we run.

I actually like that the Triangle works best with smart and skilled players. That's the kind of players I want on my team. It's exactly the kind of players the Spurs collect. The more the better.

knicks1248 wrote:

nixluva wrote:

CashMoney wrote:

nixluva wrote:

CashMoney wrote:The triangle works as long as you have the best player in the league playing along with a loaded roster.

Actually they ran the Triangle great even without Jordan. Things will look an awful lot different once Phil revamps the roster. It's always about the talent 1st. No system can work at its best without talent, tho some systems are better suited to a lack of talent than the Triangle. Also some players will look better in the Triangle than in other systems.

Yeah they did but Pippen was a top 5 player at the time.

One guy plus a bunch of role players. I think we tend to assume Phil always had a big 3 but he really didn't. There were times it was just 2 top players and a lot of guys that weren't that special. Still every coach needs talent to win and I see no reason we should be different regardless of the system we run.

I actually like that the Triangle works best with smart and skilled players. That's the kind of players I want on my team. It's exactly the kind of players the Spurs collect. The more the better.

Have you ever seen the triangle work without the best shooting guard in the league, offensively and defensively?

Can you produce an ounce of evidence in where any coach outside of phil jackson have had success soley utilizing the triangle?

You contradict yourself by saying phil told Fisher he didn't have to totally stick with triangle and can use variations of it, yet in the begining of the season when fisher saw how much of a difficult time almost every player was having he chose to stick with it, thus making every single player look like a crack head, and plummeting their value into late 2nd rnd picks . Instead of playing to his talents strength, perhaps bringing up their value, and maybe winning some games when they mattered, but noooo, he stood with a system that hasn't benefited anyone. Not one single player has come out of this looking like a sure fire keeper.

Dude losing by 30 points on a nightly basis in the NBA or in any professional sport is directly related to a team giving up on the coaching staff. Thats zero effort, zero preparation = 65 fckng losses.

Please feel in the blank

FRISHER WAS GOOD AT____________________ this season, and i can see where keeping him is a great idea.

I can put any amount of money on the line right now, that cleveland can turn shump, and jr into a late first rnd pick, probably even in the 15 to 19 range. Thats what you call buy low and sell high, something phil knows zero about.

In the end this is a lost season and there's not a lot of top line talent on the team so it's gonna look bad no matter what. Still it's not as bad as you want to keep painting it. There are small glimmers of hope for the future. This losing was set up after the trade so that we could start over. Perhaps that is lost on you and you place no value on the concept, but it's a good thing this team is losing at this point. Any extra wins are pretty pointless now. Dwelling on this season is a mistake tho. It's not about this year. It's about next year and the coming seasons.

Most of why teams win is based on the talent. I could roll the ball out there with a great team and they'd still win games. Perhaps not as many as with a good coach, but they'd win games just off their talent. We came into this year knowing Fish was raw and wasn't going to be perfect. Phil knew this and accepted that fact. There's nothing wrong with a GM going this route when he wants to invest in a man he sees potential in. Pat Riley was nearly just as green as Fish. He was a Lakers announcer and then spent one year as an assistant and his team had already won a title when he took over.

StraightShot wrote:The triangle is a great system and part of the Phil Jackson package. With Phil, you get the triangle. Now is the time to have some faith and stick with that system, and give Phil some time to work his magic. Phil has empowered Derek to make adjustments as needed so there really is no problem, it will just take some time for the roster to settle and for the guys to buy into the new system and winning culture he's creating.

We have to remember that the man just won a title 5 years ago. It's not ancient history! People talk like he did all this 20 years ago.

nixluva wrote:

StraightShot wrote:The triangle is a great system and part of the Phil Jackson package. With Phil, you get the triangle. Now is the time to have some faith and stick with that system, and give Phil some time to work his magic. Phil has empowered Derek to make adjustments as needed so there really is no problem, it will just take some time for the roster to settle and for the guys to buy into the new system and winning culture he's creating.

We have to remember that the man just won a title 5 years ago. It's not ancient history! People talk like he did all this 20 years ago.

He didn't build 5 championship teams, he coached them with hall of fame players..

Are you telling me guys are looking comfortable and playing better in 30 point blowout losses, I never even heard of Gallow and wear before they came here, and everybody else numbers have plummeted, so how exactly is this a good thing?

Phil is not coaching.. Isaih was a Hall of fame player who won 2 championships, does that automatically make him a hall of fame coach or GM, or president..

MJ one of the greatest if not the greatest player to ever play, drafted kwame brown with the number one pick.

The thing to remember is that, none of those players or coaches build their championship teams, they had specific roles that they were exrtemely good at.

Thats how you have success, you give somebody a role that they are excellent in and you keep them there, when you start bring in people and expect them to do more, or something outside the norm, your going to suffer. You can't have the chef washing dishes one night cooking, the next, serving tables next..

Do you see at what im getting at.

The thing I knew coming into the 54 win season and why it was so successful, every player knew their role, had a multi yr contract, and believed in woodson.

That's the foundation of a good team

knicks1248 wrote:

nixluva wrote:

StraightShot wrote:The triangle is a great system and part of the Phil Jackson package. With Phil, you get the triangle. Now is the time to have some faith and stick with that system, and give Phil some time to work his magic. Phil has empowered Derek to make adjustments as needed so there really is no problem, it will just take some time for the roster to settle and for the guys to buy into the new system and winning culture he's creating.

We have to remember that the man just won a title 5 years ago. It's not ancient history! People talk like he did all this 20 years ago.

He didn't build 5 championship teams, he coached them with hall of fame players..

Are you telling me guys are looking comfortable and playing better in 30 point blowout losses, I never even heard of Gallow and wear before they came here, and everybody else numbers have plummeted, so how exactly is this a good thing?

Phil is not coaching.. Isaih was a Hall of fame player who won 2 championships, does that automatically make him a hall of fame coach or GM, or president..

MJ one of the greatest if not the greatest player to ever play, drafted kwame brown with the number one pick.

The thing to remember is that, none of those players or coaches build their championship teams, they had specific roles that they were exrtemely good at.

Thats how you have success, you give somebody a role that they are excellent in and you keep them there, when you start bring in people and expect them to do more, or something outside the norm, your going to suffer. You can't have the chef washing dishes one night cooking, the next, serving tables next..

Do you see at what im getting at.

The thing I knew coming into the 54 win season and why it was so successful, every player knew their role, had a multi yr contract, and believed in woodson.

That's the foundation of a good team

You have to dig deeper. Phil was always a guy that cared about the kind of players they brought in.

In basketball, Jackson endorses the elements of defense and unselfish, team oriented play. They are the rudimentary foundations of success in all sports. His means may be different, but his philosophies are the same.

When Jackson was Bulls coach he lobbied constantly for the Bulls to trade Charles Oakley for Bill Cartwright. General manager Jerry Krause was much against it because he’d drafted Oakley. Jordan was bitterly opposed because Oakley was his physical protector against the cheap shot Detroit tactics and Oakley was his closest friend. But with Doug Collins’ support the Bulls made the trade — Krause deserves the credit for doing so as he didn’t have to as the final voice — and Jordan would later admit he didn’t know if the Bulls could have won without Cartwright to hold off the top East centers then, like Patrick Ewing, Brad Daugherty, James Edwards and Robert Parish.

In the Bulls’ second threepeat, it was Jackson who lobbied everyone for Dennis Rodman. Krause had said Rodman should never be a Bull. But Jackson had persuaded everyone the need to, as he then said, “fetch the ball” was vital to success.

Jackson’s philosophies were the same as everyone else’s. There are no secret formulas. It’s hiring the personnel to do so and knowing who that is. Jackson didn’t always have Shaq. His three-headed Bulls’ monsters were centers basically not starting anywhere else. His perimeter guys in Los Angeles also were role players, like Derek Fisher, Rick Fox, Brian Shaw. The point was to bring in players who could fill out a team with certain skills. It’s not just using them as a coach; Jackson always recommended the kinds of players he’d like. If he didn’t, you’d have seen a lot more rookies on those teams.

Phil has a system and he knows what players he needs for that system to work best. It's a very comprehensive approach. Judging what Phil is capable of by this season alone is IMO foolhardy. He hasn't yet played his best hand. This is going to be a much better example of what he's all about.

Splat wrote:

nixluva wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

nixluva wrote:

StraightShot wrote:The triangle is a great system and part of the Phil Jackson package. With Phil, you get the triangle. Now is the time to have some faith and stick with that system, and give Phil some time to work his magic. Phil has empowered Derek to make adjustments as needed so there really is no problem, it will just take some time for the roster to settle and for the guys to buy into the new system and winning culture he's creating.

We have to remember that the man just won a title 5 years ago. It's not ancient history! People talk like he did all this 20 years ago.

He didn't build 5 championship teams, he coached them with hall of fame players..

Are you telling me guys are looking comfortable and playing better in 30 point blowout losses, I never even heard of Gallow and wear before they came here, and everybody else numbers have plummeted, so how exactly is this a good thing?

Phil is not coaching.. Isaih was a Hall of fame player who won 2 championships, does that automatically make him a hall of fame coach or GM, or president..

MJ one of the greatest if not the greatest player to ever play, drafted kwame brown with the number one pick.

The thing to remember is that, none of those players or coaches build their championship teams, they had specific roles that they were exrtemely good at.

Thats how you have success, you give somebody a role that they are excellent in and you keep them there, when you start bring in people and expect them to do more, or something outside the norm, your going to suffer. You can't have the chef washing dishes one night cooking, the next, serving tables next..

Do you see at what im getting at.

The thing I knew coming into the 54 win season and why it was so successful, every player knew their role, had a multi yr contract, and believed in woodson.

That's the foundation of a good team

You have to dig deeper. Phil was always a guy that cared about the kind of players they brought in.

In basketball, Jackson endorses the elements of defense and unselfish, team oriented play. They are the rudimentary foundations of success in all sports. His means may be different, but his philosophies are the same.

When Jackson was Bulls coach he lobbied constantly for the Bulls to trade Charles Oakley for Bill Cartwright. General manager Jerry Krause was much against it because he’d drafted Oakley. Jordan was bitterly opposed because Oakley was his physical protector against the cheap shot Detroit tactics and Oakley was his closest friend. But with Doug Collins’ support the Bulls made the trade — Krause deserves the credit for doing so as he didn’t have to as the final voice — and Jordan would later admit he didn’t know if the Bulls could have won without Cartwright to hold off the top East centers then, like Patrick Ewing, Brad Daugherty, James Edwards and Robert Parish.

In the Bulls’ second threepeat, it was Jackson who lobbied everyone for Dennis Rodman. Krause had said Rodman should never be a Bull. But Jackson had persuaded everyone the need to, as he then said, “fetch the ball” was vital to success.

Jackson’s philosophies were the same as everyone else’s. There are no secret formulas. It’s hiring the personnel to do so and knowing who that is. Jackson didn’t always have Shaq. His three-headed Bulls’ monsters were centers basically not starting anywhere else. His perimeter guys in Los Angeles also were role players, like Derek Fisher, Rick Fox, Brian Shaw. The point was to bring in players who could fill out a team with certain skills. It’s not just using them as a coach; Jackson always recommended the kinds of players he’d like. If he didn’t, you’d have seen a lot more rookies on those teams.

http://www.nba.com/bulls/news/phil-jackson-and-new-york.html

Phil has a system and he knows what players he needs for that system to work best. It's a very comprehensive approach. Judging what Phil is capable of by this season alone is IMO foolhardy. He hasn't yet played his best hand. This is going to be a much better example of what he's all about.

Sometimes I have to check whose post it is so I don't confuse you with Straightshot

All I know is that this is one of the best opportunities we have to build a winning culture here and an identity as a franchise. So when I say that Phil has a system and knows what kind of players he needs for that to work. It's from his career that he's been immersed in winning basketball culture his entire career in basketball and he's had a formula for how he wants his teams to function. It's fun for you to talk about me on this forum as if i'm out of touch, but really what i'm saying is pretty clear and supported by facts. All you do is talk ish and very rarely provide anything to refute what I've posted.

The quotes i've posted show that he has been thinking like a GM to some degree for years. He's also got help on his staff from men who have other skills he lacks. Guys like Mark Warkentien.

In March 2009 Warkentien was mentioned in Sports Illustrated's as mid-seasons Executive of the Year and again in April 2009

He won the NBA Executive of the Year Award for the 2008–09 NBA season. His transactions included sending Allen Iverson to the Detroit Pistons for Chauncey Billups, and signing free-agent Chris Andersen, while moving the Nuggets under the luxury tax at the same time.[1]

It's outdated and there are better ways to play the game of basketball than using the native triangle. Part of it is OK, but no team is gonna read and react and pick and pop all day for example. Gotto be flexible, perhaps Fisher will.

nixluva wrote:

Splat wrote:

nixluva wrote:

Splat wrote:

nixluva wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

nixluva wrote:

StraightShot wrote:The triangle is a great system and part of the Phil Jackson package. With Phil, you get the triangle. Now is the time to have some faith and stick with that system, and give Phil some time to work his magic. Phil has empowered Derek to make adjustments as needed so there really is no problem, it will just take some time for the roster to settle and for the guys to buy into the new system and winning culture he's creating.

We have to remember that the man just won a title 5 years ago. It's not ancient history! People talk like he did all this 20 years ago.

He didn't build 5 championship teams, he coached them with hall of fame players..

Are you telling me guys are looking comfortable and playing better in 30 point blowout losses, I never even heard of Gallow and wear before they came here, and everybody else numbers have plummeted, so how exactly is this a good thing?

Phil is not coaching.. Isaih was a Hall of fame player who won 2 championships, does that automatically make him a hall of fame coach or GM, or president..

MJ one of the greatest if not the greatest player to ever play, drafted kwame brown with the number one pick.

The thing to remember is that, none of those players or coaches build their championship teams, they had specific roles that they were exrtemely good at.

Thats how you have success, you give somebody a role that they are excellent in and you keep them there, when you start bring in people and expect them to do more, or something outside the norm, your going to suffer. You can't have the chef washing dishes one night cooking, the next, serving tables next..

Do you see at what im getting at.

The thing I knew coming into the 54 win season and why it was so successful, every player knew their role, had a multi yr contract, and believed in woodson.

That's the foundation of a good team

You have to dig deeper. Phil was always a guy that cared about the kind of players they brought in.

In basketball, Jackson endorses the elements of defense and unselfish, team oriented play. They are the rudimentary foundations of success in all sports. His means may be different, but his philosophies are the same.

When Jackson was Bulls coach he lobbied constantly for the Bulls to trade Charles Oakley for Bill Cartwright. General manager Jerry Krause was much against it because he’d drafted Oakley. Jordan was bitterly opposed because Oakley was his physical protector against the cheap shot Detroit tactics and Oakley was his closest friend. But with Doug Collins’ support the Bulls made the trade — Krause deserves the credit for doing so as he didn’t have to as the final voice — and Jordan would later admit he didn’t know if the Bulls could have won without Cartwright to hold off the top East centers then, like Patrick Ewing, Brad Daugherty, James Edwards and Robert Parish.

In the Bulls’ second threepeat, it was Jackson who lobbied everyone for Dennis Rodman. Krause had said Rodman should never be a Bull. But Jackson had persuaded everyone the need to, as he then said, “fetch the ball” was vital to success.

Jackson’s philosophies were the same as everyone else’s. There are no secret formulas. It’s hiring the personnel to do so and knowing who that is. Jackson didn’t always have Shaq. His three-headed Bulls’ monsters were centers basically not starting anywhere else. His perimeter guys in Los Angeles also were role players, like Derek Fisher, Rick Fox, Brian Shaw. The point was to bring in players who could fill out a team with certain skills. It’s not just using them as a coach; Jackson always recommended the kinds of players he’d like. If he didn’t, you’d have seen a lot more rookies on those teams.

http://www.nba.com/bulls/news/phil-jackson-and-new-york.html

Phil has a system and he knows what players he needs for that system to work best. It's a very comprehensive approach. Judging what Phil is capable of by this season alone is IMO foolhardy. He hasn't yet played his best hand. This is going to be a much better example of what he's all about.

Sometimes I have to check whose post it is so I don't confuse you with Straightshot

All I know is that this is one of the best opportunities we have to build a winning culture here and an identity as a franchise. So when I say that Phil has a system and knows what kind of players he needs for that to work. It's from his career that he's been immersed in winning basketball culture his entire career in basketball and he's had a formula for how he wants his teams to function. It's fun for you to talk about me on this forum as if i'm out of touch, but really what i'm saying is pretty clear and supported by facts. All you do is talk ish and very rarely provide anything to refute what I've posted.

The quotes i've posted show that he has been thinking like a GM to some degree for years. He's also got help on his staff from men who have other skills he lacks. Guys like Mark Warkentien.

In March 2009 Warkentien was mentioned in Sports Illustrated's as mid-seasons Executive of the Year and again in April 2009

He won the NBA Executive of the Year Award for the 2008–09 NBA season. His transactions included sending Allen Iverson to the Detroit Pistons for Chauncey Billups, and signing free-agent Chris Andersen, while moving the Nuggets under the luxury tax at the same time.[1]

I talk facts. Facts are what has happened thus far. Thus far it has been ish, thus I talk about ish. You fart rainbows. I have the perspective to know some things can go right, but I don't extrapolate it will happen.

Your assertion that your outlook on Phil is supported by the facts is in fact false. Because all you've got is what you think Phil can accomplish because of his career, but nothing thus far has substantiated jackchit about what you think. Facts thus far show Phil is incompetent. And superior GMs will have a hell of an advantage. You don't have facts. You engage in daydreams.

I just posted that the Knicks Director of Player Personnel won Executive of the Year for his work in Denver. He's here helping Phil along with others. Just cuz Plan A failed doesn't mean they have no idea what they're doing. All GM's make mistakes and sometimes things simply just don't work out due to all kinds of reasons. It doesn't mean the GM is incompetent. The players also have a say in how things go. That's why Phil got rid of players that didn't buy in. Phil now has a much better set of moves to make this summer. He's not trying to make it work with the remnants of last years team. Now he's going to be able to put together his own group with much more of a blank slate. That makes the task a lot easier in terms of making your lists of players and player combinations to build a new top 6 rotation.

Phil is not the one structuring contracts and figuring out all the financial aspects of the cap and so forth. That's what he has a staff for. He's overseeing a team and setting the direction but we do have qualified people working behind the scenes. You assume that this last year is predictive of what Phil will do in the future. Phil has what should be a top pick. He's gonna have cap space. He knows what kind of players he needs based on his experience winning titles. He's been active in picking some of his players over the years and he has good basketball men helping him make his decisions. No one is making guarantees of success but there are a lot of good options to improve coming this summer.

Should I call you Marie, because you're all about having your cake and eating it too?

On the one hand, you have supreme faith in Phil Jackson because of his army of experienced professionals

On the other hand, all of those experienced professionals are writing up the contracts, so Phil can't take all the blame.

Is Phil in charge or not?

The way you talk, Phil is teflon. You spin everything. Your predictives are so over the top and the only way you can sustain your hyperbole is by saying what has happened has no bearing on the future.