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James Harden MVP (And Field Goal Percentage Stat Silliness)
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Vmart
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3/15/2015  11:40 PM
mreinman wrote:
Vmart wrote:
knickscity wrote:
Vmart wrote:When the refs swallow the whistle what you got? Getting to the line is subjective. FG % is vital part of the game.

Deandre Jordan is shooting 71% from the field. Subjective.

Precisely, you can't rely on subjectivity. Free throw shooting is a plus but you can't rely on that to be the major facet of the game. Shot making is in your control.

what is in your control is to have an efficient TS. That means that what ever of the 3 you are doing well, it will show up in your TS. If you are not getting the calls but you are raining threes, that is fine too. If you are just hitting 60% from 2's, that's also good.

TS tells you if a player is playing efficiently regardless of where he is getting his points.

Is 20 points on 20 shots good? Of course it's not. But its 50% FG!!! Big whoop. How is that different than 5 for 10 and twenty points?

A three is a shot made. What you are adding is refs discretion on some of that. To me FG% is important and the most telling stat. TS% takes everything into consideration I get it, it's a nice stat. To me you simply cannot rely on free throws as a major factor to the individual's game package as it is subjective and at the discretion of the refs interpretation.
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dk7th
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3/15/2015  11:42 PM
Vmart wrote:
knickscity wrote:
Vmart wrote:When the refs swallow the whistle what you got? Getting to the line is subjective. FG % is vital part of the game.

Deandre Jordan is shooting 71% from the field. Subjective.

Precisely, you can't rely on subjectivity. Free throw shooting is a plus but you can't rely on that to be the major facet of the game. Shot making is in your control.

no. shot TAKING is under your control. and when your jumpshot is taken away from you or you are having an off night shooting then you have to try and draw fouls. drawing fouls is an elite skill and raises the efficiency with which you score points.

which is better, a player scoring 30 points on 22 shots or 30 points on 16 shots?

harden's downfall last season is clearly reflected, not in his TS% which was all over the place, but rather in the fact that his usage went way up from the regular season and his assist rate went down. in the regular season those two figures were a a very healthy 1:1 ratio, while in the playoffs that ratio was out of whack from game to game (game to game because the sample size is only 6 games). it is almost as though he is trying to take over scoring at the expense of offensive cohesion. you have to wonder why, like he lost his mind thinking "i need to beast." had he stayed within himself those first two games against portland, he would have fared better in the long run.

knicks win 38-43 games in 16-17. rose MUST shoot no more than 14 shots per game, defer to kp6 + melo, and have a usage rate of less than 25%
mreinman
Posts: 37827
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3/15/2015  11:43 PM
Vmart wrote:
mreinman wrote:
Vmart wrote:
knickscity wrote:
Vmart wrote:When the refs swallow the whistle what you got? Getting to the line is subjective. FG % is vital part of the game.

Deandre Jordan is shooting 71% from the field. Subjective.

Precisely, you can't rely on subjectivity. Free throw shooting is a plus but you can't rely on that to be the major facet of the game. Shot making is in your control.

what is in your control is to have an efficient TS. That means that what ever of the 3 you are doing well, it will show up in your TS. If you are not getting the calls but you are raining threes, that is fine too. If you are just hitting 60% from 2's, that's also good.

TS tells you if a player is playing efficiently regardless of where he is getting his points.

Is 20 points on 20 shots good? Of course it's not. But its 50% FG!!! Big whoop. How is that different than 5 for 10 and twenty points?

A three is a shot made. What you are adding is refs discretion on some of that. To me FG% is important and the most telling stat. TS% takes everything into consideration I get it, it's a nice stat. To me you simply cannot rely on free throws as a major factor to the individual's game package as it is subjective and at the discretion of the refs interpretation.

so threes and two's should be valued the same?

so here is what phil is thinking ....
mreinman
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3/15/2015  11:47 PM
dk7th wrote:
Vmart wrote:
knickscity wrote:
Vmart wrote:When the refs swallow the whistle what you got? Getting to the line is subjective. FG % is vital part of the game.

Deandre Jordan is shooting 71% from the field. Subjective.

Precisely, you can't rely on subjectivity. Free throw shooting is a plus but you can't rely on that to be the major facet of the game. Shot making is in your control.

no. shot TAKING is under your control. and when your jumpshot is taken away from you or you are having an off night shooting then you have to try and draw fouls. drawing fouls is an elite skill and raises the efficiency with which you score points.

which is better, a player scoring 30 points on 22 shots or 30 points on 16 shots?

harden's downfall last season is clearly reflected, not in his TS% which was all over the place, but rather in the fact that his usage went way up from the regular season and his assist rate went down. in the regular season those two figures were a a very healthy 1:1 ratio, while in the playoffs that ratio was out of whack from game to game (game to game because the sample size is only 6 games). it is almost as though he is trying to take over scoring at the expense of offensive cohesion. you have to wonder why, like he lost his mind thinking "i need to beast." had he stayed within himself those first two games against portland, he would have fared better in the long run.

not sure what you mean by that ... his playoffs TS certainly reflected his poorer play. His TS in OKC in his 3 postseasons was a whopping 61.4 while in Houston its a very mediocre 53.3 and last season it was a bad 51.9.

so here is what phil is thinking ....
Hector
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3/15/2015  11:56 PM
Anthony Davis - 34/14/7 & 9 blocks.


There is your best player in the league right now.

[quote="jrodmc"] Melo is stupid. [/quote]
mreinman
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3/16/2015  12:01 AM
Hector wrote:Anthony Davis - 34/14/7 & 9 blocks.


There is your best player in the league right now.

maybe the best player in the league but he won't win MVP

so here is what phil is thinking ....
Vmart
Posts: 31800
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3/16/2015  12:11 AM
dk7th wrote:
Vmart wrote:
knickscity wrote:
Vmart wrote:When the refs swallow the whistle what you got? Getting to the line is subjective. FG % is vital part of the game.

Deandre Jordan is shooting 71% from the field. Subjective.

Precisely, you can't rely on subjectivity. Free throw shooting is a plus but you can't rely on that to be the major facet of the game. Shot making is in your control.

no. shot TAKING is under your control. and when your jumpshot is taken away from you or you are having an off night shooting then you have to try and draw fouls. drawing fouls is an elite skill and raises the efficiency with which you score points.

which is better, a player scoring 30 points on 22 shots or 30 points on 16 shots?

harden's downfall last season is clearly reflected, not in his TS% which was all over the place, but rather in the fact that his usage went way up from the regular season and his assist rate went down. in the regular season those two figures were a a very healthy 1:1 ratio, while in the playoffs that ratio was out of whack from game to game (game to game because the sample size is only 6 games). it is almost as though he is trying to take over scoring at the expense of offensive cohesion. you have to wonder why, like he lost his mind thinking "i need to beast." had he stayed within himself those first two games against portland, he would have fared better in the long run.

Look what I'm saying is there comes a time when a player has to hit shots at a higher clip than what Harden is shooting. I get it he gets to the line a lot but you can't rely on that facet of game because it's subjective. I like the fact he puts pressure on the refs to make the call, but if the ref doesn't call than the shot better be on.
dk7th
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3/16/2015  12:23 AM
mreinman wrote:
dk7th wrote:
Vmart wrote:
knickscity wrote:
Vmart wrote:When the refs swallow the whistle what you got? Getting to the line is subjective. FG % is vital part of the game.

Deandre Jordan is shooting 71% from the field. Subjective.

Precisely, you can't rely on subjectivity. Free throw shooting is a plus but you can't rely on that to be the major facet of the game. Shot making is in your control.

no. shot TAKING is under your control. and when your jumpshot is taken away from you or you are having an off night shooting then you have to try and draw fouls. drawing fouls is an elite skill and raises the efficiency with which you score points.

which is better, a player scoring 30 points on 22 shots or 30 points on 16 shots?

harden's downfall last season is clearly reflected, not in his TS% which was all over the place, but rather in the fact that his usage went way up from the regular season and his assist rate went down. in the regular season those two figures were a a very healthy 1:1 ratio, while in the playoffs that ratio was out of whack from game to game (game to game because the sample size is only 6 games). it is almost as though he is trying to take over scoring at the expense of offensive cohesion. you have to wonder why, like he lost his mind thinking "i need to beast." had he stayed within himself those first two games against portland, he would have fared better in the long run.

not sure what you mean by that ... his playoffs TS certainly reflected his poorer play. His TS in OKC in his 3 postseasons was a whopping 61.4 while in Houston its a very mediocre 53.3 and last season it was a bad 51.9.

never mind about prior seasons. during the regular season last year he was at 62% then went down to 52%. what i am saying is the lowered true shooting percentage was a symptom, not a root cause.

if you want to see the root cause then look at his usage and his assist rate, and then the ratio of those two. also look at the number of shots he took compared with his regular season average.

he has an ego, and he was not playing smart basketball.

knicks win 38-43 games in 16-17. rose MUST shoot no more than 14 shots per game, defer to kp6 + melo, and have a usage rate of less than 25%
mreinman
Posts: 37827
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3/16/2015  12:25 AM
dk7th wrote:
mreinman wrote:
dk7th wrote:
Vmart wrote:
knickscity wrote:
Vmart wrote:When the refs swallow the whistle what you got? Getting to the line is subjective. FG % is vital part of the game.

Deandre Jordan is shooting 71% from the field. Subjective.

Precisely, you can't rely on subjectivity. Free throw shooting is a plus but you can't rely on that to be the major facet of the game. Shot making is in your control.

no. shot TAKING is under your control. and when your jumpshot is taken away from you or you are having an off night shooting then you have to try and draw fouls. drawing fouls is an elite skill and raises the efficiency with which you score points.

which is better, a player scoring 30 points on 22 shots or 30 points on 16 shots?

harden's downfall last season is clearly reflected, not in his TS% which was all over the place, but rather in the fact that his usage went way up from the regular season and his assist rate went down. in the regular season those two figures were a a very healthy 1:1 ratio, while in the playoffs that ratio was out of whack from game to game (game to game because the sample size is only 6 games). it is almost as though he is trying to take over scoring at the expense of offensive cohesion. you have to wonder why, like he lost his mind thinking "i need to beast." had he stayed within himself those first two games against portland, he would have fared better in the long run.

not sure what you mean by that ... his playoffs TS certainly reflected his poorer play. His TS in OKC in his 3 postseasons was a whopping 61.4 while in Houston its a very mediocre 53.3 and last season it was a bad 51.9.

never mind about prior seasons. during the regular season last year he was at 62% then went down to 52%. what i am saying is the lowered true shooting percentage was a symptom, not a root cause.

if you want to see the root cause then look at his usage and his assist rate, and then the ratio of those two. also look at the number of shots he took compared with his regular season average.

he has an ego, and he was not playing smart basketball.

I agree with what you wrote ... he played hero ball and failed.

so here is what phil is thinking ....
Bonn1997
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3/16/2015  6:10 AM
Vmart wrote:When the refs swallow the whistle what you got? Getting to the line is subjective. FG % is vital part of the game.

FG% does not get rid of this dependence on the refs. Basketball is inherently dependent on the refs. If you're get fouled while shooting and it's not getting called, your FG% will go down.
Vmart
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3/16/2015  8:41 AM
Bonn1997 wrote:
Vmart wrote:When the refs swallow the whistle what you got? Getting to the line is subjective. FG % is vital part of the game.

FG% does not get rid of this dependence on the refs. Basketball is inherently dependent on the refs. If you're get fouled while shooting and it's not getting called, your FG% will go down.

Of course it is. But Harden has a extreme reliance on the refs. I have seen Harden look for a foul rather than make a shot and he does that often to the point where is is looking for contact and trying to make the basket which to me equals a bad shot. Sometimes he gets the call and gets bailed out and when he doesn't get the call it's bad shot. I wouldn't give him the MVP based on his current numbers.
smackeddog
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3/16/2015  1:06 PM
James Harden is very talented, but man I find him hard to watch- I think the Clips and the Rockets are two of the most unlikeable teams in the west (at least for me). He probably deserves MVP, but I really hope he doesn't get it.
mreinman
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3/16/2015  1:23 PM    LAST EDITED: 3/16/2015  1:45 PM
smackeddog wrote:James Harden is very talented, but man I find him hard to watch- I think the Clips and the Rockets are two of the most unlikeable teams in the west (at least for me). He probably deserves MVP, but I really hope he doesn't get it.

Its so strange how all Melo fans dislike Harden and find him "hard to watch"

Also strange that with so many posters, where you align yourself on the Melo front can pretty much guarantee all other opinions ... wish people can just keep an open mind and not be forced to take sides.

Melo Fans:
==========
Don't like Metrics or for some cloudy reason don't believe in them
Don't like Harden
Hate Splat
Don't like Kevin Love
Hate MDA
See Phils vision
believe in the triangle
believe in pretty much everything that phil tells us
seem to be much more old school
mostly conservative/republican
Edit: want Ok4 over towns

I think that the MeloLovers would kick the MeloHaters in a fight and are much tougher in person

I think that the MeloHaters would kick the MeloHaters azzes in the SAT's, LSATS, Spelling Bees, GPA

(of course there are some exceptions to the rules)

so here is what phil is thinking ....
Splat
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3/16/2015  1:33 PM
Vmart wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
Vmart wrote:When the refs swallow the whistle what you got? Getting to the line is subjective. FG % is vital part of the game.

FG% does not get rid of this dependence on the refs. Basketball is inherently dependent on the refs. If you're get fouled while shooting and it's not getting called, your FG% will go down.

Of course it is. But Harden has a extreme reliance on the refs. I have seen Harden look for a foul rather than make a shot and he does that often to the point where is is looking for contact and trying to make the basket which to me equals a bad shot. Sometimes he gets the call and gets bailed out and when he doesn't get the call it's bad shot. I wouldn't give him the MVP based on his current numbers.

Drawing fouls is a skill among many others. Many guys who excel at it are despised by fans of other clubs. It is actually a sign of intelligence to take what the game will give you and if the refs do reward you with foul calls, then it is a good strategy to get a good portion of your points from the free throw line where the conversion % is vastly greater than it is for FG's.

I've got a fever and the only prescription is more cowbell!
Splat
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3/16/2015  1:34 PM
mreinman wrote:
smackeddog wrote:James Harden is very talented, but man I find him hard to watch- I think the Clips and the Rockets are two of the most unlikeable teams in the west (at least for me). He probably deserves MVP, but I really hope he doesn't get it.

Its so strange how all Melo fans dislike Harden and find him "hard to watch"

Also strange that with so many posters, where you align yourself on the Melo front can pretty much guarantee all other opinions ... wish people can just keep an open mind and not be forced to take sides.

Melo Fans:
==========
Don't like Metrics or for some cloudy reason don't believe in them
Don't like Harden
Hate Splat
Don't like Kevin Love
Hate MDA
See Phils vision
believe in the triangle
believe in pretty much everything that phil tells us
seem to be much more old school
mostly conservative/republican


I think that the MeloLovers would kick the MeloHaters in a fight and are much tougher in person

I think that the MeloHaters would kick the MeloHaters azzes in the SAT's, LSATS, Spelling Bees, GPA

(of course there are some exceptions to the rules)

I'm a heavily muscled member of Mensa, just FYI

I've got a fever and the only prescription is more cowbell!
mreinman
Posts: 37827
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Member: #3189
3/16/2015  1:36 PM
Splat wrote:
mreinman wrote:
smackeddog wrote:James Harden is very talented, but man I find him hard to watch- I think the Clips and the Rockets are two of the most unlikeable teams in the west (at least for me). He probably deserves MVP, but I really hope he doesn't get it.

Its so strange how all Melo fans dislike Harden and find him "hard to watch"

Also strange that with so many posters, where you align yourself on the Melo front can pretty much guarantee all other opinions ... wish people can just keep an open mind and not be forced to take sides.

Melo Fans:
==========
Don't like Metrics or for some cloudy reason don't believe in them
Don't like Harden
Hate Splat
Don't like Kevin Love
Hate MDA
See Phils vision
believe in the triangle
believe in pretty much everything that phil tells us
seem to be much more old school
mostly conservative/republican


I think that the MeloLovers would kick the MeloHaters in a fight and are much tougher in person

I think that the MeloHaters would kick the MeloHaters azzes in the SAT's, LSATS, Spelling Bees, GPA

(of course there are some exceptions to the rules)

I'm a heavily muscled member of Mensa, just FYI

nah ... I would guess that you are a 5 foot 8 latino.

so here is what phil is thinking ....
smackeddog
Posts: 38391
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3/16/2015  1:36 PM    LAST EDITED: 3/16/2015  1:38 PM
mreinman wrote:
smackeddog wrote:James Harden is very talented, but man I find him hard to watch- I think the Clips and the Rockets are two of the most unlikeable teams in the west (at least for me). He probably deserves MVP, but I really hope he doesn't get it.

Its so strange how all Melo fans dislike Harden and find him "hard to watch"

Also strange that with so many posters, where you align yourself on the Melo front can pretty much guarantee all other opinions ... wish people can just keep an open mind and not be forced to take sides.

Melo Fans:
==========
Don't like Metrics or for some cloudy reason don't believe in them
Don't like Harden
Hate Splat
Don't like Kevin Love
Hate MDA
See Phils vision
believe in the triangle
believe in pretty much everything that phil tells us
seem to be much more old school
mostly conservative/republican


I think that the MeloLovers would kick the MeloHaters in a fight and are much tougher in person

I think that the MeloHaters would kick the MeloHaters azzes in the SAT's, LSATS, Spelling Bees, GPA

(of course there are some exceptions to the rules)

Ha- I'm very left wing- I always thought the anti-Melo folk were republicans I agree with the rest of it though! Apart from the fighting stuff (I am weak), and the brain stuff- I'm a geek!

So I guess the reverse runs true for the Melo haters- they:

Love metrics and efficiency above all else
Love Harden
Love Splat
Love Love
Love MDA
Laugh at Phils 'vision'
Believe the triangle is obsolete
Believe Phil is a compulsive liar
Hope robots replace humans in the near future, ala Terminator 2
Mostly conservative/republican
Splat
Posts: 23774
Alba Posts: 1
Joined: 7/19/2014
Member: #5862
3/16/2015  1:39 PM
mreinman wrote:
Splat wrote:
mreinman wrote:
smackeddog wrote:James Harden is very talented, but man I find him hard to watch- I think the Clips and the Rockets are two of the most unlikeable teams in the west (at least for me). He probably deserves MVP, but I really hope he doesn't get it.

Its so strange how all Melo fans dislike Harden and find him "hard to watch"

Also strange that with so many posters, where you align yourself on the Melo front can pretty much guarantee all other opinions ... wish people can just keep an open mind and not be forced to take sides.

Melo Fans:
==========
Don't like Metrics or for some cloudy reason don't believe in them
Don't like Harden
Hate Splat
Don't like Kevin Love
Hate MDA
See Phils vision
believe in the triangle
believe in pretty much everything that phil tells us
seem to be much more old school
mostly conservative/republican


I think that the MeloLovers would kick the MeloHaters in a fight and are much tougher in person

I think that the MeloHaters would kick the MeloHaters azzes in the SAT's, LSATS, Spelling Bees, GPA

(of course there are some exceptions to the rules)

I'm a heavily muscled member of Mensa, just FYI

nah ... I would guess that you are a 5 foot 8 latino.

lol, ok, if you say so

I've got a fever and the only prescription is more cowbell!
mreinman
Posts: 37827
Alba Posts: 1
Joined: 7/14/2010
Member: #3189
3/16/2015  1:40 PM
smackeddog wrote:
mreinman wrote:
smackeddog wrote:James Harden is very talented, but man I find him hard to watch- I think the Clips and the Rockets are two of the most unlikeable teams in the west (at least for me). He probably deserves MVP, but I really hope he doesn't get it.

Its so strange how all Melo fans dislike Harden and find him "hard to watch"

Also strange that with so many posters, where you align yourself on the Melo front can pretty much guarantee all other opinions ... wish people can just keep an open mind and not be forced to take sides.

Melo Fans:
==========
Don't like Metrics or for some cloudy reason don't believe in them
Don't like Harden
Hate Splat
Don't like Kevin Love
Hate MDA
See Phils vision
believe in the triangle
believe in pretty much everything that phil tells us
seem to be much more old school
mostly conservative/republican


I think that the MeloLovers would kick the MeloHaters in a fight and are much tougher in person

I think that the MeloHaters would kick the MeloHaters azzes in the SAT's, LSATS, Spelling Bees, GPA

(of course there are some exceptions to the rules)

Ha- I'm very left wing- I always thought the anti-Melo folk were republicans I agree with the rest of it though! Apart from the fighting stuff (I am weak), and the brain stuff- I'm a geek!

So I guess the reverse runs true for the Melo haters- they:

Love metrics and efficiency above all else
Love Harden
Love Splat
Love Love
Love MDA
Laugh at Phils 'vision'
Believe the triangle is obsolete
Believe Phil is a compulsive liar
Hope robots replace humans in the near future, ala Terminator 2
Mostly conservative/republican

Oh c'mon ... you know liberals question everything and conservatives hate everyone with a question

so here is what phil is thinking ....
Splat
Posts: 23774
Alba Posts: 1
Joined: 7/19/2014
Member: #5862
3/16/2015  1:46 PM
I hate groups, but I:

Love MMDA and glow sticks
Help Phil cross the street because of his age and vision
Play triangles with my Casiotone
Love neither Conservative nor Liberal labels
Believe Phil is out to lunch, but it is probably a very delicious lunch with Chianti and sauteed livers
I Am Splaticus
Love Me Long Time

I've got a fever and the only prescription is more cowbell!
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