nixluva wrote:Splat wrote:knickscity wrote:Splat wrote:nixluva wrote:Splat wrote:If you're now saying you need both offense and defense, then what is the point of all this verbiage?You start from what you've got and build from there. If you know Melo is on your frontline, theories don't mean much if you put low quality frontline defenders next to him. Every team is built piece by piece and with our baseline being there is only one starter right now who is named Melo, you know you'll need a superior defender on the frontline.
Dealing with this reality is the only thing controllable, not historical references to past champions since this team is not going to contend for years if ever.
The # 1 fallacy behind any theories about team construction is this team will be constructed around the Triangle. As soon as Phil committed to Melo, the second coming of the Anti-Triangle himself, anyone could see this triangle talk was the fantasies of a man reflecting on his past glories, but who may not be firmly grounded in the present day realities of the NBA.
Phil dis-credited his own Triangle talk by making Melo the core of the team. What would be refreshing is if Phil stops embarrassing himself with Triangle talk and simply gets players who can blend well with Melo. That's all he can do at this point. The rest is just hot air.
This is the dilemma of trying to converse on a forum. You're complete thoughts on a subject are hard to make clear when you're always addressing specific topics and not your overall philosophy on the game as a whole. Just because i've talked about trying to find a way for this team to be successful by working with it's strengths doesn't mean that i'm saying all that matters is offense. No one has ever made such a stupid claim. It's always been about having a balanced team but you can't just wish that you're team can be strong on both sides of the ball. You actually need Defensive Talent Too. My points about offense were predicated on what kind of players we had and who was actually available to us. You can't just ignore offense and think that's going to work either. This team has a chance now to restructure and create a more balanced roster.
The comments about Phil and the Triangle aren't worth getting into. He has a system and he's going to build his team based on adding players who can excel playing in that system. He disagrees with you about Melo.
Now in order to get this thread back on track... I think Phil has to look at guys who can actually provide production that has an impact on the teams win totals and not just guys that are cheap. We should have no qualms about spending good money on a few guys that are worth that money and some of the younger players are a greater value given their Cap number and years they can give us being younger.
Hollinger Stats - Estimated Wins Added
RK PLAYER GP MPG TS% AST TO USG ORR DRR REBR PER VA EWA2 Jimmy Butler, CHI 55 38.9 .582 14.7 6.7 20.6 5.1 11.3 8.3 21.30 345.1 11.5
8 Goran Dragic, MIA/PHX 62 33.3 .578 20.5 10.7 21.6 3.3 8.4 5.9 17.31 209.9 7.0
9 Wesley Matthews, POR 60 33.7 .586 13.4 7.8 18.6 2.1 9.5 5.9 16.14 170.5 5.7
Danny Green, SA 63 29.4 .590 13.7 9.0 16.3 2.9 14.4 8.7 16.53 166.6 5.6
13 Khris Middleton, MIL 63 29.0 .573 14.2 8.9 18.3 2.4 15.1 8.9 16.35 159.5 5.3
RK PLAYER GP MPG TS% AST TO USG ORR DRR REBR PER VA EWA
2 Pau Gasol, CHI 63 34.8 .549 12.7 9.9 23.0 9.2 28.1 18.8 22.48 359.0 12.0
3 LaMarcus Aldridge, POR 56 36.0 .521 6.7 7.1 27.4 8.0 22.8 15.6 22.13 319.9 10.7
6 Greg Monroe, DET 64 31.1 .548 10.8 11.9 22.7 11.2 25.7 18.1 21.13 286.2 9.5
8 Paul Millsap, ATL 63 33.1 .566 14.7 11.7 22.1 6.7 20.1 13.6 19.90 261.6 8.7
9 Kevin Love, CLE 64 34.4 .560 12.3 8.2 20.5 6.6 26.7 16.8 19.34 257.6 8.6RK PLAYER GP MPG TS% AST TO USG ORR DRR REBR PER VA EWA
25 Omer Asik, NO 61 26.1 .550 10.1 14.6 12.8 13.7 29.5 21.6 15.48 116.1 3.9
27 Alexis Ajinca, NO 51 14.0 .623 8.9 13.9 19.4 12.6 25.5 19.1 21.24 113.5 3.8
28 Robin Lopez, POR 40 28.4 .566 9.1 11.3 14.6 13.1 13.3 13.2 16.63 102.1 3.4
There are other players to consider but these are guys I would put a premium on acquiring. After getting a couple of these players then it would make sense to look at even cheaper FA's who are very efficient players in their own right.
Nix, saying Phil disagrees about Melo may have been true when he signed him. Phil seems to have convinced himself he could take Melo to another level and all that jazz and so far that was not true. Phil has been chastened by this season's failures and I doubt his take on Melo is the same as before.
So it sure does matter what Phil thinks about Melo NOW, not what he psyched himself into believing despite Melo's history.
More importantly for this here is not what Phil thinks, but what do you think? Do you actually believe Melo is going to become a facilitator and carry his weight as a ball movement participant more than he has in the past? If you do, then why did Melo abandon it so quickly so early in the season? He reverted aggressively this year. He was not an above average basketball player from a fundamentals point of view and he needs to be.
This is Melo's team, so everything on the table revolves around either building around him or trading him.
As far as getting players who provide offensive production, isn't that a given? I mean how can that not be the expectation and objective? That's why I asked what is the true point of emphasizing offensive production during free agency?
I'm just asking because I think you believe this can be a contending within two seasons and I don't. If you do believe that, then maybe you are saying you can justify close to max spending on another 18-24 PPG player. I doubt that will produce a contender.
The reason I don't believe this is the way go was in my first post in this thread. Costly signings will benefit the team when a base is in place and that means 1-2 years of development cheaper players. Build a deeper rotation of role players and then attract a top free agent or two who see the foundation has been laid for success. But going for broke right away trying to buy more scoring or win shares won't work next year. It is poor money management at this stage for a gutted team.
Imo, this team is too far away to be overspending at all, and there's no way to identify the "right" players when you currently have very few players on the roster that might be kept or even should be.This team needs a talent infusion, and then find a cohesive mix.
Yes, that is another way of saying what I'm saying.
I totally disagree with this sentiment. If you only focus on how far away from winning we are right now with this roster then you're not thinking about it the right way. You can't worry about some pessimistic view of how far from winning you supposedly are. You make the best additions you can and just worry about building your team the right way.Phil has to worry about drafting well and signing the right Free Agents. No matter what he has to come away with better 2 way players than we have now. Players who have starting level talent. That's why I have posted these players. They all rate well in terms of having a significant positive impact. Phil has to bring in players who can form the core of a winning team and then you see where that gets you. You can't just assume that it won't be enough to make a difference so why do it.
Some of these players will be too expensive, but many of them will be in our price range and would be a significant improvement. It's a list of the highest ranked players that we actually have a chance to get, some more than others but there's a chance and Phil has to go after them.
Hollinger Stats - Estimated Wins Added
RK PLAYER GP MPG TS% AST TO USG ORR DRR REBR PER VA EWA2 Jimmy Butler, CHI 55 38.9 .582 14.7 6.7 20.6 5.1 11.3 8.3 21.30 345.1 11.5
8 Goran Dragic, MIA/PHX 62 33.3 .578 20.5 10.7 21.6 3.3 8.4 5.9 17.31 209.9 7.0
9 Wesley Matthews, POR 60 33.7 .586 13.4 7.8 18.6 2.1 9.5 5.9 16.14 170.5 5.7
Danny Green, SA 63 29.4 .590 13.7 9.0 16.3 2.9 14.4 8.7 16.53 166.6 5.6
13 Khris Middleton, MIL 63 29.0 .573 14.2 8.9 18.3 2.4 15.1 8.9 16.35 159.5 5.3
RK PLAYER GP MPG TS% AST TO USG ORR DRR REBR PER VA EWA
2 Pau Gasol, CHI 63 34.8 .549 12.7 9.9 23.0 9.2 28.1 18.8 22.48 359.0 12.0
3 LaMarcus Aldridge, POR 56 36.0 .521 6.7 7.1 27.4 8.0 22.8 15.6 22.13 319.9 10.7
6 Greg Monroe, DET 64 31.1 .548 10.8 11.9 22.7 11.2 25.7 18.1 21.13 286.2 9.5
8 Paul Millsap, ATL 63 33.1 .566 14.7 11.7 22.1 6.7 20.1 13.6 19.90 261.6 8.7
9 Kevin Love, CLE 64 34.4 .560 12.3 8.2 20.5 6.6 26.7 16.8 19.34 257.6 8.6RK PLAYER GP MPG TS% AST TO USG ORR DRR REBR PER VA EWA
25 Omer Asik, NO 61 26.1 .550 10.1 14.6 12.8 13.7 29.5 21.6 15.48 116.1 3.9
27 Alexis Ajinca, NO 51 14.0 .623 8.9 13.9 19.4 12.6 25.5 19.1 21.24 113.5 3.8
28 Robin Lopez, POR 40 28.4 .566 9.1 11.3 14.6 13.1 13.3 13.2 16.63 102.1 3.4
You are the only person who wants to frame things into opposing camps of optimists and pessimists. I'm talking about how to build a team FROM WHERE WE ARE RIGHT NOW and what that entails. Don't drag this into old themes that have nothing to do with this discussion I'm trying to engage in today.
That we are not close to winning anytime soon matters a great deal and impact team building decisions immensely. That's not negativity, but a basic pragmatic consideration.
It is analagous to many things, including building businesses. You have to decide where to spend your capital and allocate resources at different stages of development and growth. The same applies here. Shooting for big signings now during the early stage is a mis-allocation of capital and resources.
The real problem this creates is the clock is indeed ticking on Melo. They committed to him as the centerpiece. Assuming he'll be OK next year, then building around quickly while he can still produce is one viewpoint. The other outlook is he is a sunk cost and because this a rebuild regardless of Melo, then you accept it will take years to build a contender regardless of when Melo's contract runs out.
Operate under the assumption you must acquire top FA's ASAP due to Melo's clock and the situation becomes the same thing done here for two decades. Without a deep enough squad to sustain injuries and remain competitive, tying up 60% of your cap space in Melo and another player will fail.
Recognize we agree on the fundamentals. Draft well, sign good FA's. My primary distinction addressed to you is about maintaining a lower cost basis per player for the next season or two and accepting a contender cannot be bought overnight. Cheaper multiple signings can yield several potential long-term core players or even just solid bench players you re-sign again later.
Do it right this off-season and save space for 2016. A year well managed can build a roster of role players and then shop in 2016 for a more expensive player since there won't be a first round pick unless we trade Melo. If we can trade Melo, that would be ideal. Then we'd be on a real rebuild path without the artificial sense of urgency to capitalize on the sunk cost of a flawed player like Melo.
But if he is not traded, keep building the talent pool by rolling up the sleeves and landing the best off the radar players and mid-range to low cost FA's. Creativity in personnel development is the only hope. Success cannot be bought by buying it at this point. The cupboard is simply too bare.
