WaltLongmire wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

WaltLongmire wrote:I thought it was a pretty balanced article, Briggs- he touched on all the arguments, pro and con. Howard Beck is not a lightweight, in my opinion.

I don't want to trade the pick, but, as was said in the article, a team would be foolish if it didn't consider all possibilities and trade offers. I would have to get at least two starters 25 years or younger, one with an All-Star pedigree, another on his way, to even consider a trade if I had a top 2 pick. One would have to be a big man.

The article pointed out the reality of our situation. The Knicks made Anthony their keystone for the next 5 years. Signing him to the contract he got told the world that Jackson had a shorter window of opportunity to achieve some kind of playoff success than if we had started over completely by doing a sign and trade with Anthony to pick up younger players and future draft picks.

I'm not saying that we are in a win now at all costs situation, but the combination of Anthony's contract status and his physical status dictate a sooner rather than later approach to rebuilding.

Not having a pick next year really messes things up, since a slower and more painful rebuild with the sweetener of another lottery pick is out of the question at this point.

Got to face the possibility, however upsetting, that they might deal the player we get in the draft.

So it goes.

Nope trading a top 2 pick to me is not a possibility. It would be an outrageous mistake of monumental proportions--unthinkable. Teams are only in the Knicks position in rare occasions. The last time it happened it was the conduit for LONG TERM success here. And that is what EVERY single Knicks fan wants--a chance to be successful for the long term. EVERY Knick fans knows what the problems have been for 15 thats FIFTEEN years running. We ALL know that other teams GM's have been SMARTER than ours . The ONLY reason why a team would want to trade with us is they see it as a superior move--and with our history they are likely to be right. BOTh Okafor and Towns to me are PROVEN there is no doubt proven that they will be NBA superstar pivots. They are 18-19 years old--playing off the charts for their age. 1 thing I keep asking myself--my God if these guys played 4 years like Tim Dunca--they --be considered Tim Duncan. Okafor would even out hi body and become a good defensive player in time and Towns is just ready to blow up in a way that could be scary. The NY Knicks are NOT in ANY position to say lets trade a pick especially 1 or 2--ZERO there is NO balance to this article-- does it mention that we have ZERO pivots signed that we dont even have a skeleton of a team? Does it show instances where trading pick 1 or 2 has shown success--no. Its not balanced and I read it twice--the basketball writer sounds less than knowledgeable. If you need to call the owner of draftexpress.com to get opinions than your article scks. Think about that. He hasnt watched Okafor or Towns play he needs help deciphering or projecting what they might be? Thats outrageous at this point iof youre a Knicks fan. Most people on this forum kind of know what they have seen--so a beat writer has not--need s help??

Only 1 trade in 15 years of any of these players 1 trade in Fiveteen years--there is simply NO history of trades NONE no team has done it up until this year in an extraordinary situation. You had a FRANCHISE PLAYER every single year up to 2012--every year--without exception and we cant judge 2012 and 2014 yet but I expect they may be there too.

Nearly every franchise player in the nBA playing today is a top3 or 4 pick. There is history of 1 player traded in 15 years and that we will have to see about. Here this is a rela article with real content. Show mke otherwise provide material to prove different. This man Beck has NO idea what he is talking about this is the way NBA teams work their top pick--THEY KEEP THEM almost to a 100% margin and a franchise player has been found at the top of the draft an overwhelming amount of time. This took me 30 minutes. So next time Beck does an article or need to call draftexpress for advice--maybe he should take 30 minutes or watch a couple of duke games himself before he spews idiocy.

I know I'm playing Devil's Advocate here, since I would rather keep our pick.

You are dealing with two time frames which cannot be dismissed as being insignificant:

Jackson has a 5 year contract(And does anyone really think he will be around after it ends?), and legacy-wise, he might feel the need to
create a contending team within the years of his tenure, even though he has talked about changing the culture and future success of the franchise, seemingly beyond his departure.

Anthony's contract goes hand and had with Jackson's. He is not a 25 years old, with his prime years ahead of him, and his contract limits some of our options, although the soon to be expanded cap will change things. His limitations as a player might influence who the Knicks draft, since we are going to need an improved interior D to compensate for Anthony, whether he defends at the 3 or the 4 position.

I have no idea if this trade would work within the rules of the NBA, and don't care if you think OKC would not want to do it, but what if OKC offered you Durant, Adams, and their #1 for our top 2 pick, Hardaway, and whatever.

I'm not saying it is a feasible transaction... just asking whether you would trade the pick for this kind of deal.

Just wondering.

The GM of Oklahoma said he would NEVER trade Durant just yesterday under any condition. So really you are looking at the Rudy Gays of the world. You must ask yourself would you as an opposing team--if the Knicks offered you Carmelo Anthony for pick 1 or 2 would u take it? Answer honestly. What GM has more than 5 years time with anything? That means nothing. Does this sound like Durant is for sale??

http://www.cbssports.com/nba/eye-on-basketball/25103296/sam-presti-on-the-idea-of-trading-kevin-durant-its-ludicrous

BRIGGS wrote:fishmike-0-can you name the last 6-11 265 pound PF to avg 18-9-1.5 at Duke as freshmen who is hooting 67%

OK4 = sure thing and while he might be a scorer now he's got plenty of potential to be a good defender in the post. The scoring is game changing. The last guy I remember being able to score with the same ease as OK4 was Shaq. Obviously nothing alike but OK4 is toying with the NCAA. Town is the poster child for "needs 2 more years of school" Im sure we can wait on that.. What did Tyson yield for the Bulls? Who drafted Whiteside again?

fishmike wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:fishmike-0-can you name the last 6-11 265 pound PF to avg 18-9-1.5 at Duke as freshmen who is hooting 67%

by the way he's the guy I wouldnt trade except for total lunacy. Im with you there. I would also happily take Russell at 2. Towns? If someone is going to throw a big pacakge for pick 3-4 Im sure as hell going to look. There are guys with Town's upside and bigger bodies of work to look at. Also (like the Suns w/ Amare at 9) you might a true gem and lock them up in 5-8 range.

OK4 = sure thing and while he might be a scorer now he's got plenty of potential to be a good defender in the post. The scoring is game changing. The last guy I remember being able to score with the same ease as OK4 was Shaq. Obviously nothing alike but OK4 is toying with the NCAA. Town is the poster child for "needs 2 more years of school" Im sure we can wait on that.. What did Tyson yield for the Bulls? Who drafted Whiteside again?

Towns is probably the biggest risk and biggest reward in the entire draft. But do you go after a sure thing in OK4, or swing for the fences in Towns? Nothing about the draft is a sure thing. I need to look at the stats again, but I'm sure the top 5 picks in NBA history didn't turn out like all the smart GM's thought. But if you trade a pick, that turns out to be a star......For an established star, isn't that a wash?

On top of that, you ask for another pick. That means, worse case, you traded a potential franchise player for an up and coming established NBA player, with the same franchise potential, but with NBA experience. Now what if that potential franchise pick turns out to be a solid role player.....We win in that trade. What if the potential pick is a star.....Remember, I'm only trading for an established star and a pick....We win that too.

Even with statistics (which is still not a guarantee).....If Phil has a smart trade on the table......IT'S A WIN...WIN

Now the question is how many up and coming established NBA players are available with potential franchise value? Thats a separate question.

BRIGGS wrote:

fishmike wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:fishmike-0-can you name the last 6-11 265 pound PF to avg 18-9-1.5 at Duke as freshmen who is hooting 67%

by the way he's the guy I wouldnt trade except for total lunacy. Im with you there. I would also happily take Russell at 2. Towns? If someone is going to throw a big pacakge for pick 3-4 Im sure as hell going to look. There are guys with Town's upside and bigger bodies of work to look at. Also (like the Suns w/ Amare at 9) you might a true gem and lock them up in 5-8 range.

OK4 = sure thing and while he might be a scorer now he's got plenty of potential to be a good defender in the post. The scoring is game changing. The last guy I remember being able to score with the same ease as OK4 was Shaq. Obviously nothing alike but OK4 is toying with the NCAA. Town is the poster child for "needs 2 more years of school" Im sure we can wait on that.. What did Tyson yield for the Bulls? Who drafted Whiteside again?

Karl Towns will be better than Kevin Durant as a team winner. Karl Towns will be a top 5 defensive player and will resemble the play Patrick Ewing gave us for 15 years.

Its not a given Briggs. 9ppg and 6rebs is red flag. I 100% agree with you on a high ceiling. He's local around here. Like Jay Williams was. Most around know about hit and what a good kid he is. When KAT plays 30mpg in the tourney and scores 12ppg gets 12rebs and blocks 5 I will dismiss my arguements. Seeing is believing.

WaltLongmire wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

WaltLongmire wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

WaltLongmire wrote:I thought it was a pretty balanced article, Briggs- he touched on all the arguments, pro and con. Howard Beck is not a lightweight, in my opinion.

I don't want to trade the pick, but, as was said in the article, a team would be foolish if it didn't consider all possibilities and trade offers. I would have to get at least two starters 25 years or younger, one with an All-Star pedigree, another on his way, to even consider a trade if I had a top 2 pick. One would have to be a big man.

The article pointed out the reality of our situation. The Knicks made Anthony their keystone for the next 5 years. Signing him to the contract he got told the world that Jackson had a shorter window of opportunity to achieve some kind of playoff success than if we had started over completely by doing a sign and trade with Anthony to pick up younger players and future draft picks.

I'm not saying that we are in a win now at all costs situation, but the combination of Anthony's contract status and his physical status dictate a sooner rather than later approach to rebuilding.

Not having a pick next year really messes things up, since a slower and more painful rebuild with the sweetener of another lottery pick is out of the question at this point.

Got to face the possibility, however upsetting, that they might deal the player we get in the draft.

So it goes.

Nope trading a top 2 pick to me is not a possibility. It would be an outrageous mistake of monumental proportions--unthinkable. Teams are only in the Knicks position in rare occasions. The last time it happened it was the conduit for LONG TERM success here. And that is what EVERY single Knicks fan wants--a chance to be successful for the long term. EVERY Knick fans knows what the problems have been for 15 thats FIFTEEN years running. We ALL know that other teams GM's have been SMARTER than ours . The ONLY reason why a team would want to trade with us is they see it as a superior move--and with our history they are likely to be right. BOTh Okafor and Towns to me are PROVEN there is no doubt proven that they will be NBA superstar pivots. They are 18-19 years old--playing off the charts for their age. 1 thing I keep asking myself--my God if these guys played 4 years like Tim Dunca--they --be considered Tim Duncan. Okafor would even out hi body and become a good defensive player in time and Towns is just ready to blow up in a way that could be scary. The NY Knicks are NOT in ANY position to say lets trade a pick especially 1 or 2--ZERO there is NO balance to this article-- does it mention that we have ZERO pivots signed that we dont even have a skeleton of a team? Does it show instances where trading pick 1 or 2 has shown success--no. Its not balanced and I read it twice--the basketball writer sounds less than knowledgeable. If you need to call the owner of draftexpress.com to get opinions than your article scks. Think about that. He hasnt watched Okafor or Towns play he needs help deciphering or projecting what they might be? Thats outrageous at this point iof youre a Knicks fan. Most people on this forum kind of know what they have seen--so a beat writer has not--need s help??

Only 1 trade in 15 years of any of these players 1 trade in Fiveteen years--there is simply NO history of trades NONE no team has done it up until this year in an extraordinary situation. You had a FRANCHISE PLAYER every single year up to 2012--every year--without exception and we cant judge 2012 and 2014 yet but I expect they may be there too.

Nearly every franchise player in the nBA playing today is a top3 or 4 pick. There is history of 1 player traded in 15 years and that we will have to see about. Here this is a rela article with real content. Show mke otherwise provide material to prove different. This man Beck has NO idea what he is talking about this is the way NBA teams work their top pick--THEY KEEP THEM almost to a 100% margin and a franchise player has been found at the top of the draft an overwhelming amount of time. This took me 30 minutes. So next time Beck does an article or need to call draftexpress for advice--maybe he should take 30 minutes or watch a couple of duke games himself before he spews idiocy.

I know I'm playing Devil's Advocate here, since I would rather keep our pick.

You are dealing with two time frames which cannot be dismissed as being insignificant:

Jackson has a 5 year contract(And does anyone really think he will be around after it ends?), and legacy-wise, he might feel the need to
create a contending team within the years of his tenure, even though he has talked about changing the culture and future success of the franchise, seemingly beyond his departure.

Anthony's contract goes hand and had with Jackson's. He is not a 25 years old, with his prime years ahead of him, and his contract limits some of our options, although the soon to be expanded cap will change things. His limitations as a player might influence who the Knicks draft, since we are going to need an improved interior D to compensate for Anthony, whether he defends at the 3 or the 4 position.

I have no idea if this trade would work within the rules of the NBA, and don't care if you think OKC would not want to do it, but what if OKC offered you Durant, Adams, and their #1 for our top 2 pick, Hardaway, and whatever.

I'm not saying it is a feasible transaction... just asking whether you would trade the pick for this kind of deal.

Just wondering.

The GM of Oklahoma said he would NEVER trade Durant just yesterday under any condition. So really you are looking at the Rudy Gays of the world. You must ask yourself would you as an opposing team--if the Knicks offered you Carmelo Anthony for pick 1 or 2 would u take it? Answer honestly. What GM has more than 5 years time with anything? That means nothing. Does this sound like Durant is for sale??

http://www.cbssports.com/nba/eye-on-basketball/25103296/sam-presti-on-the-idea-of-trading-kevin-durant-its-ludicrous

Alternative world, Briggs. (And by the way, do you really think Presti would show his hand if he was actually considering a Durant trade?)

Simple yes or no question...

Would you make the trade I proposed above, however outlandish or impossible it might seem at this time?

By the way, I would not take the Carmello Anthony of the present for our top 2 pick. If he was 24, with a number of All-Star games under his belt, I might think differently.

Jackson is not a normal GM, by the way. He's a historical figure in the NBA, who has ties to two NBA dynasties and the only two championship teams in the history of this franchise. He will be done with the game, except for this or that ceremonial job, after his time with the Knicks.

I think succeeding here means something to him.

I would trade pick 1 or 2 ONLY for A Davis not even Lebron. We dont have enough to be competitive for years even with KD if you want to be hypothetical. KD and Carmelo really play the same position--so you have 2 multi 3-4 taking 25 shots with Cole SAldrich at C Jose Calderon at PG and Lagston Galloway at SG. They arent trading KD and I wouldnt give away pick 1 or 2 for KD. Thats my answer.

gunsnewing wrote:Anyone have Towns stats since he was benched and thought a lesson by Calipari early in the year? Since the UNC game Dec 13th I think.

dumb... if we trade the pick it will trump all the dumb moves we have made....

gunsnewing wrote:Yea I've been saying the something as well as some of the media. As the season progressed Towns established himself as Kentucky's go to guy. They will go to him when they need baskets in a high pressure atmosphere that is the tournament. Especially since they are undefeated. Should be fun. I'm expecting big things from him and how the 2015 draft is perceived

BRIGGS wrote:

Cartman718 wrote:i really hope we don't trade the pick. this is a top 3 pick that the knicks have had in what...30 years now?

You know if we had pick 3 or 4 and we felt that we could get pick 10 32 35 and a 2016#1 and still hit draft targets and that trade made more sense as a collective deal--or if it was a couple of young promising players and a good pick--thats something that could be considered.(but still doubtful) Of course if we get either pick 1 or 2 any trade that doesnt net us 1 of Okafor or Towns at any spot is a trade you just dont consider. But this article is suggesting it for an existing player--meaning wed have to use BOTH our cap space and the pick to get 1 player on a team that has won 12 games this year. We are not 1 player away --we are 7 players away. Pick 1-2-3 were going to get a VERY good player for a LONG time--to give that up for who Rudy gay or somebody like that? Insane and dumb. This team is not 1 player away--we do not even have 1 pivot signed for next year. The turnover on this team might be staggering. The likelihood is were still not a good team by a longshot next year. Patrick Ewing didnt get to .500 until his 4th year. We might have a little different scenario--team are not as good as back then but we are not the Celtics and a young Ray Allen and Kevin garnett are not coming to join Paul Pierce and a boatload of player already in place. We have 0 in place.

it would seem that because of where melo is at, that phil will trade the pick. but would that net us a few more years of mediocrity, at a steep price? justification for dolan to raise prices again?

maybe we could trade #1 for a #6 and #8 or a #7 and #9 something like that