EnySpree wrote:

Nalod wrote:

EnySpree wrote:Kerr turned the Knicks down anyway. Not cuz of money. So this is just a stupid debate.

Phil gave Fish the amount Kerr was asking for. Given he offered rookie Kerr that, he had set the limit.
Why does anyone care about non Cap Dolan money anyway?

Beats me. But to say we should have signed Kerr when he turned us down for a better situation is ridiculous.

Why does anyone care about non Cap Dolan money anyway?

Jealousy and Envy

"You hate me cause you ain't me"

"Hate the game....Not the player"

CrushAlot wrote:

TripleThreat wrote:

Knicks1969 wrote:I am simply saying if Kerr was our coach this franchise would have benefitted due to his past experience as a front office guy.

IMHO, best overall option was if Dolan hired a young up and coming GM prospect, while ignoring Jackson totally, who had paid his dues in blood on a winning franchise, someone who could give the Knicks a potential 20-25 years on the job if he panned out, someone already versed in the trenches with analytics, scouting and dealing with agents and the salary cap. Then Dolan would do a press conference, apologize to Knicks fans for the franchises state of disarray and vow to hire good basketball people and let them do their job and then hide in the background and let the kid go to work. That young buck would likely have traded Melo in the offseason, tanked, gotten some better return on Chandler and not taken Calderon. The franchise would still be hurting, but at least it would have a specific direction and trajectory.

The 2nd best option was if Phil Jackson only agreed to a "figurehead role" like what Golden State has with Jerry West. The Logo is the figurehead and advisor, not on a gigantic salary, who would hire said young GM as stated above, and then enjoy the nice retirement package, show up to a few annual key events like the Draft and meeting free agents and leave the day to day decision making to said young GM, just like West leaves everything else to Bob Myers.

The option Dolan took was this

- Anything Melo related, Melo is the defacto GM. His entire "Is it a injury or is he just hurt" and branding saga is proof positive that Melo doesn't give a flying **** about this team and he can flaunt it and no one can do anything about it.
- Anything not Melo related, Phil Jackson is the decision maker, but he has no experience
- All the grunt work is done by Steve Mills, but everyone in the league knows he's just the guy carrying Phil's briefcase and washing Melo's car, because he has no real power in the organization. And to boot, you don't see other franchises literally tripping over themselves to hire Steve Mills away from the Knicks because he's a hot and up and coming GM.

How would Kerr help?

All things Melo would be controlled by Melo. Everything else would be controlled by Phil because his 60 million dollar splash salary says so. Kerr would do what? Carry the suitcases and coach? And coach what? A collection of low IQ overpaid selfish power forwards and roster churn that comprises the least talented 15 man unit in the entire league?

Kerr isn't needed to help the Knicks. What's needed is a FLAMETHROWER. The Knicks literally need to set their existing power structure on fire and start over.

Kerr wasn't smart to join the more talented franchise, he was smart to NOT JOIN THE OPENLY DYSFUNCTIONAL FRANCHISE.

The idea of a young, up and coming gm is great but I don't think that hire gets the autonomy Phil Jackson is supposed to have. Dolan is definitely a brand name guy and Jax with 11 rings is that. I also don't think Phil is less capable then a young gm. I do think the Knicks are handicapped by Mills. Mills lack of NBA connections among other gms has been written about. He has had two tenures with the Knicks. Both have been incredibly unsuccessful. Mills retaining his position is one reason I question Jax's autonomy.

Well said. I have no idea why Mills is in that position to begin With. He is a business guy, not a basketball mind. You simply can't have cooks running the OR.

Swishfm3 wrote:Kerr did an outstanding job developing that squad!!!

Or was it M.Jackson? I can never tell those two apart.

it was jackson's homophobia that helped ease his way out the door. that kind of intolerance in this day and age really hurt his job security, just as much as his reputation as a coach, which was mixed....

blkexec wrote:

dk7th wrote:

Swishfm3 wrote:Kerr did an outstanding job developing that squad!!!

Or was it M.Jackson? I can never tell those two apart.

it was jackson's homophobia that helped ease his way out the door. that kind of intolerance in this day and age really hurt his job security, just as much as his reputation as a coach, which was mixed....

I think MJ might be a better GM than Coach!

i would not doubt it, except for (1) he would remain a homophobe and (2) he is not a big fan of advanced statistics. in a situation where there is both a salary cap AND guaranteed money the modern GM has to use all the tools available and have all the best people to utilize those tools.

at some point "old school" and "eye test" has to make room for other things. it strikes me that mark jackson is not the sort to adapt... that said, i enjoy 90% of what he brings to the broadcast, more than what van gundy brings.

i know this will grind some people's gears, but i really liked what kerr brought to the broadcast and think jon barry's color commentary is among the best i have heard.

dk7th wrote:

RonRon wrote:Yeah, it was stupid, Phil Jackson should have just given Kerr a deal he couldn't refuse, instead of trying to lowball him
We were in negatations with Kerr for a little while and then GS swept right in, which there was no way he would pick NYK over GS
However, if we offered him 5m + with a 5year deal, which is the same length of Jackons reign, he could possibly be our coach today

Instead we wanted to give him closer to 4m with a 3year deal with options for 4th with Kerr's lack of "experience as a coach"
It was going to be a couple year project, so giving him such a short leash made it hard to swallow, as the 1st year was invetible to be a losing season
Also I don't think Phil Jackson liked the fact that Kerr was going to use all his experiences from Poppavich/Dantoni and not just the Triangle that Phil Jackson wants to see succeed and live on

Then the 2Billion man bought the Clippers and we were willing to pay Fisher in hopes of possibliy increasing our chances of acquiring Durant in the future

ronron no way kerr was going to come to new york for any amount of money once he knew that carmelo was going to be here. the fact that jackson was compelled to reward a career underachiever with 124 million and a no-trade is simply evidence downstream that there was never any intention of giving carmelo anthony his walking papers... which would have been the very fountainhead of true culture change. no doubt kerr asked a simple question and the answer he got was enough for him to make an easy decision.

does anyone ever question how jackson goes from a tough negotiating stance to rolling over like he did and NOT think he was coerced along the way? or is jackson actually as stupid as he often sounds?

walsh was far more intelligent than jackson is demonstrating.

It was gross and stupid to capitulate to Melo like that. It set the tone for everything that followed.

At least we can look forward to corporate tools like Nix who will keep brainlessly posting about how visionary Jackson is.

CrushAlot wrote:

dk7th wrote:

RonRon wrote:Yeah, it was stupid, Phil Jackson should have just given Kerr a deal he couldn't refuse, instead of trying to lowball him
We were in negatations with Kerr for a little while and then GS swept right in, which there was no way he would pick NYK over GS
However, if we offered him 5m + with a 5year deal, which is the same length of Jackons reign, he could possibly be our coach today

Instead we wanted to give him closer to 4m with a 3year deal with options for 4th with Kerr's lack of "experience as a coach"
It was going to be a couple year project, so giving him such a short leash made it hard to swallow, as the 1st year was invetible to be a losing season
Also I don't think Phil Jackson liked the fact that Kerr was going to use all his experiences from Poppavich/Dantoni and not just the Triangle that Phil Jackson wants to see succeed and live on

Then the 2Billion man bought the Clippers and we were willing to pay Fisher in hopes of possibliy increasing our chances of acquiring Durant in the future

ronron no way kerr was going to come to new york for any amount of money once he knew that carmelo was going to be here. the fact that jackson was compelled to reward a career underachiever with 124 million and a no-trade is simply evidence downstream that there was never any intention of giving carmelo anthony his walking papers... which would have been the very fountainhead of true culture change. no doubt kerr asked a simple question and the answer he got was enough for him to make an easy decision.

does anyone ever question how jackson goes from a tough negotiating stance to rolling over like he did and NOT think he was coerced along the way? or is jackson actually as stupid as he often sounds?

walsh was far more intelligent than jackson is demonstrating.

Kerr signed in Golden State in May. Melo signed with the Knicks 2 months later. Everything bad isn't Melo. Kerr got a mucho better roster, a better owner, and was able to stay on the same coast as his family. Not sure what role Melo played in all things that made golden state a better situation for Kerr but I would love for you to explain it. In regards to Walsh, any recent lottery picks or top 3 protected picks traded to get cap space for this coming offseason? Will have to see if PJax can max out a guy that has such a severe pre-existing condition that his contract can't be insured and that doctors put a time line on his career that is shorter then the length of contract offered.

and jackson was hired in february. your timeline merely reinforces the fact that jackson's directive from on high was to bring back melo. you should ask yourself how it is possible to talk tough about a contract and culture change only to go tits up to the tune of 124 million with a no trade. do you sincerely see nothing wrong with this "transition" from one stance to the next? how do you explain it?

try as you might, there's nothing to explain: melo and dolan have been 69ing each other for 4 years and counting. they started with back rubs and bubble baths in vegas and now this unmitigated disaster. they share the same avarice-based value system and nothing will break that bond, even winning.

this is what is so godawful about jackson coming here. never mind the 11 rings as a coach. he has two rings as a new york legend and is a substantial part of genuine new york knick glory, and you think that alone will trump the curse of the house of dolan.

but no, instead, his performance here in his return to new york sports has been tantamount to taking a watery old man's dump on his OWN legacy as a knick.

"shame" comes to mind.

dk7th wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

dk7th wrote:

RonRon wrote:Yeah, it was stupid, Phil Jackson should have just given Kerr a deal he couldn't refuse, instead of trying to lowball him
We were in negatations with Kerr for a little while and then GS swept right in, which there was no way he would pick NYK over GS
However, if we offered him 5m + with a 5year deal, which is the same length of Jackons reign, he could possibly be our coach today

Instead we wanted to give him closer to 4m with a 3year deal with options for 4th with Kerr's lack of "experience as a coach"
It was going to be a couple year project, so giving him such a short leash made it hard to swallow, as the 1st year was invetible to be a losing season
Also I don't think Phil Jackson liked the fact that Kerr was going to use all his experiences from Poppavich/Dantoni and not just the Triangle that Phil Jackson wants to see succeed and live on

Then the 2Billion man bought the Clippers and we were willing to pay Fisher in hopes of possibliy increasing our chances of acquiring Durant in the future

ronron no way kerr was going to come to new york for any amount of money once he knew that carmelo was going to be here. the fact that jackson was compelled to reward a career underachiever with 124 million and a no-trade is simply evidence downstream that there was never any intention of giving carmelo anthony his walking papers... which would have been the very fountainhead of true culture change. no doubt kerr asked a simple question and the answer he got was enough for him to make an easy decision.

does anyone ever question how jackson goes from a tough negotiating stance to rolling over like he did and NOT think he was coerced along the way? or is jackson actually as stupid as he often sounds?

walsh was far more intelligent than jackson is demonstrating.

Kerr signed in Golden State in May. Melo signed with the Knicks 2 months later. Everything bad isn't Melo. Kerr got a mucho better roster, a better owner, and was able to stay on the same coast as his family. Not sure what role Melo played in all things that made golden state a better situation for Kerr but I would love for you to explain it. In regards to Walsh, any recent lottery picks or top 3 protected picks traded to get cap space for this coming offseason? Will have to see if PJax can max out a guy that has such a severe pre-existing condition that his contract can't be insured and that doctors put a time line on his career that is shorter then the length of contract offered.

and jackson was hired in february. your timeline merely reinforces the fact that jackson's directive from on high was to bring back melo. you should ask yourself how it is possible to talk tough about a contract and culture change only to go tits up to the tune of 124 million with a no trade. do you sincerely see nothing wrong with this "transition" from one stance to the next? how do you explain it?

try as you might, there's nothing to explain: melo and dolan have been 69ing each other for 4 years and counting. they started with back rubs and bubble baths in vegas and now this unmitigated disaster. they share the same avarice-based value system and nothing will break that bond, even winning.

this is what is so godawful about jackson coming here. never mind the 11 rings as a coach. he has two rings as a new york legend and is a substantial part of genuine new york knick glory, and you think that alone will trump the curse of the house of dolan.

but no, instead, his performance here in his return to new york sports has been tantamount to taking a watery old man's dump on his OWN legacy as a knick.

"shame" comes to mind.

holfresh wrote:

dk7th wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

dk7th wrote:

RonRon wrote:Yeah, it was stupid, Phil Jackson should have just given Kerr a deal he couldn't refuse, instead of trying to lowball him
We were in negatations with Kerr for a little while and then GS swept right in, which there was no way he would pick NYK over GS
However, if we offered him 5m + with a 5year deal, which is the same length of Jackons reign, he could possibly be our coach today

Instead we wanted to give him closer to 4m with a 3year deal with options for 4th with Kerr's lack of "experience as a coach"
It was going to be a couple year project, so giving him such a short leash made it hard to swallow, as the 1st year was invetible to be a losing season
Also I don't think Phil Jackson liked the fact that Kerr was going to use all his experiences from Poppavich/Dantoni and not just the Triangle that Phil Jackson wants to see succeed and live on

Then the 2Billion man bought the Clippers and we were willing to pay Fisher in hopes of possibliy increasing our chances of acquiring Durant in the future

ronron no way kerr was going to come to new york for any amount of money once he knew that carmelo was going to be here. the fact that jackson was compelled to reward a career underachiever with 124 million and a no-trade is simply evidence downstream that there was never any intention of giving carmelo anthony his walking papers... which would have been the very fountainhead of true culture change. no doubt kerr asked a simple question and the answer he got was enough for him to make an easy decision.

does anyone ever question how jackson goes from a tough negotiating stance to rolling over like he did and NOT think he was coerced along the way? or is jackson actually as stupid as he often sounds?

walsh was far more intelligent than jackson is demonstrating.

Kerr signed in Golden State in May. Melo signed with the Knicks 2 months later. Everything bad isn't Melo. Kerr got a mucho better roster, a better owner, and was able to stay on the same coast as his family. Not sure what role Melo played in all things that made golden state a better situation for Kerr but I would love for you to explain it. In regards to Walsh, any recent lottery picks or top 3 protected picks traded to get cap space for this coming offseason? Will have to see if PJax can max out a guy that has such a severe pre-existing condition that his contract can't be insured and that doctors put a time line on his career that is shorter then the length of contract offered.

and jackson was hired in february. your timeline merely reinforces the fact that jackson's directive from on high was to bring back melo. you should ask yourself how it is possible to talk tough about a contract and culture change only to go tits up to the tune of 124 million with a no trade. do you sincerely see nothing wrong with this "transition" from one stance to the next? how do you explain it?

try as you might, there's nothing to explain: melo and dolan have been 69ing each other for 4 years and counting. they started with back rubs and bubble baths in vegas and now this unmitigated disaster. they share the same avarice-based value system and nothing will break that bond, even winning.

this is what is so godawful about jackson coming here. never mind the 11 rings as a coach. he has two rings as a new york legend and is a substantial part of genuine new york knick glory, and you think that alone will trump the curse of the house of dolan.

but no, instead, his performance here in his return to new york sports has been tantamount to taking a watery old man's dump on his OWN legacy as a knick.

"shame" comes to mind.

I know this will fall on deaf ears but here goes...Phil had no choice but sign Melo at what ever price he wants...When the new cap figures are set, players can stay exactly where they are and get paid...The only hope the Knicks will have of anyone coming here is to play with Melo..And KD has already hinted that...No one is coming here to put up with the press, a temperamental fan base and to rack up losses...Every team will be able to pay their stars big time...The Knicks will have zero advantage over another team except having a good player you can team with to make a run...The next five years will be vastly different in the NBA...

Sure, Melo is worth every penny of $124M as a recruiting tool. Free agents will be fighting each other over the opportunity to play with a god of the courts like Carmelo Anthony. It would be an honor and a privilege. To say you once played with Carmelo Anthony means you've made it in life. You're right. Phil had no choice.

holfresh wrote:

Splat wrote:
Sure, Melo is worth every penny of $124M as a recruiting tool. Free agents will be fighting each other over the opportunity to play with a god of the courts like Carmelo Anthony. It would be an honor and a privilege. To say you once played with Carmelo Anthony means you've made it in life. You're right. Phil had no choice.

With all due respect..U and I have no idea what Melo is worth to the business that is MSG..Who are u to say what he should be making??..I guarantee the guys at MSG have a better handle on that..

What?

Your thesis was they couldn't build a team without retaining Melo as a recruiting tool.

Who said anything about Dolan's cost analysis regarding his bottom line?

What kind of response is that?