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Barkley on Analytics
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holfresh
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2/11/2015  11:04 AM    LAST EDITED: 2/11/2015  11:07 AM
Bonn1997 wrote:
holfresh wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
holfresh wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
SupremeCommander wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
SupremeCommander wrote:as someone that has studied advanced statistics -- I could not agree any more. I think you can improve teams with advanced analytics. I think building one based off an equation is DUMB. Definitely agree that analytics is a way for smart guys to get in the game. Or so other people think their opinion is more important... "give me a break." indeed

No one uses just one equation.
All those teams Barkley mentioned are spending millions on analytics experts though.

again, it is a great way to make marginal improvements to a team. To Barkley's point, the Houston teams built entirely on analytics were completely pedestrian

Would you describe acquiring James Harden as only a marginal improvement? I think I still have the thread on his signing bookmarked on my home computer.

Almost everyone here thought it was overpaying for a limited player.

Morey overpays for all of his players..How did Lin and Asik work out?


*all*? It's hard to take that seriously.
I don't know how a .700 team with the 13th highest payroll qualifies as overpaying. Dolan paid more for this sub .200 team.
He's just one GM using analytics though. There are a couple others using them more effectively and with better luck too. The Magic and Hornets are the only ones still stuck in the basketball stone age.

Morey is the only GM in this league that authored contracts paying 4 players this year at least 14.6 mil per..

and if he was in the Hornets-Magic stone age, he'd be making better decisions? Do you have a point that actually relates to the subject of this thread?

Wasn't you who introduced the topic of Morey overpaying players?

AUTOADVERT
Nalod
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2/11/2015  11:11 AM
Look at the publicity TNT is getting!!!!!!!
Controversy sells!
Whose buying???
nixluva
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2/11/2015  12:06 PM
Well far be it from me to be on Barkley's side on anything, but I only partially agree with him. 1st of all I can't stand Barkley. I think he's a JERK and he's a fool that embarrasses himself WAY too often. With regard to Analytics, the practice has it's place as I argued earlier in other threads. It's not everything a GM should use in order to build a team but it can be very useful in making better player decisions.

With regard to the Knicks they have a very good set of front office people who are well versed in using Analytics. Mark Warkentien of the Knicks has his philosophy on it:

Warkentien said. "You've got 13 guys on a team; every time you do make a move, you're investing 7-8 percent of your portfolio. The more information gives you more knowledge, which gives you more power."

For years, Warkentien has evaluated players with an approach he calls "eyes-ears-numbers." Heading into the 2009 NBA draft, scouts suggested to Warkentien that North Carolina's Ty Lawson was a point guard's point guard. Fast. Heady. A winner. But the kid wasn't a great shooter and wasn't even 6-feet tall. So Denver went to the numbers.

The case for Ty Lawson

At a recent breakfast, Oliver opened his Dell, and on the screen were statistics as scrambled as his eggs.

"This ain't points and rebounds, huh?" an onlooker asked.

"Nooooooo," Oliver said with emphasis.

It was his personal breakdown of North Carolina's team last season, first ranking individual offensive efficiency. What's that?

"It's how many points per 100 possessions did the player use, in order to create points," he said. Field goals count, as do turnovers and free throws.

"So, you have to count the opportunities that it takes to create those," he explained. "This is their efficiency in doing that, in creating points. Ty created 139 points per 100 possessions that he used — any factor of creating points. That is a huge number."

Next was "individual defensive efficiency per 100 possessions," in which "we estimate how often he forced his guy into a bad shot, or how many turnovers he created," Oliver said. He also liked Lawson's numbers there.

After that, there were columns dissecting a player's scoring possessions, total possessions, points produced, percentage of the team offense a player is responsible for and, finally, defensive stops (how many times he was part of stopping the opponent). As Oliver often says, the stats see every game, and the Nuggets were pleased with what the stats saw when they looked at Lawson.

Oliver, who will do some college scouting for the Nuggets this season, also used "pure point rating" — which Warkentien believes is a stronger gauge of a point guard than assist-to-turnover ratio, if only because a turnover is arguably more harmful than an assist is helpful, so why should they be equal?

"It's how much are you creating for your teammates, versus screwing up," Oliver said of pure point rating, and sure enough, Lawson's pure point rating ranked historically among the best in NCAA history.

"The numbers on Lawson absolutely reinforced our eyes and ears," Warkentien said.

Asked if Lawson, the 18th overall pick, should have gone higher in the draft, Oliver could only smile and say, "I don't care — we got him."

Weights and measures

Dean Oliver, the Nuggets' director of quantitative analysis, turns basketball into numbers. Here's a close look at what he finds and feeds to the Nuggets' executives and coaches:

Tendencies: "Stats see every game," Oliver said, and he uses data to try to dissect and expose tendencies of opponents. This is especially helpful in the playoffs, when a team plays the same opponent up to seven times.

Overrated: As much as Oliver helps executives decide whom they should try to acquire, he helps even more pointing out which players the Nuggets should avoid. "There is not a huge predictive value," Nuggets executive Mark Warkentien said. "There is a huge — bigger than downtown Denver — eliminating value."

Self-evaluation: Oliver points out information for the Nuggets' coaches on what they can learn from past performances about their current players, using his "Historical and Statistical" numbers crunching. This information can also help in determining whom to add to a roster.

Efficiency: Oliver believes teams should focus on the optimum way to maximize possessions. "He's helped upgrade the upper echelon of decision-making," coach George Karl said, "and I think in the world of business today, those guys are becoming more and more important. The computerized formulas are sometimes the reason why you do something, or the reason why you don't do something."

http://www.denverpost.com/sports/ci_13541239
Bonn1997
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2/11/2015  12:40 PM
holfresh wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
holfresh wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
holfresh wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
SupremeCommander wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
SupremeCommander wrote:as someone that has studied advanced statistics -- I could not agree any more. I think you can improve teams with advanced analytics. I think building one based off an equation is DUMB. Definitely agree that analytics is a way for smart guys to get in the game. Or so other people think their opinion is more important... "give me a break." indeed

No one uses just one equation.
All those teams Barkley mentioned are spending millions on analytics experts though.

again, it is a great way to make marginal improvements to a team. To Barkley's point, the Houston teams built entirely on analytics were completely pedestrian

Would you describe acquiring James Harden as only a marginal improvement? I think I still have the thread on his signing bookmarked on my home computer.

Almost everyone here thought it was overpaying for a limited player.

Morey overpays for all of his players..How did Lin and Asik work out?


*all*? It's hard to take that seriously.
I don't know how a .700 team with the 13th highest payroll qualifies as overpaying. Dolan paid more for this sub .200 team.
He's just one GM using analytics though. There are a couple others using them more effectively and with better luck too. The Magic and Hornets are the only ones still stuck in the basketball stone age.

Morey is the only GM in this league that authored contracts paying 4 players this year at least 14.6 mil per..

and if he was in the Hornets-Magic stone age, he'd be making better decisions? Do you have a point that actually relates to the subject of this thread?

Wasn't you who introduced the topic of Morey overpaying players?

You mean because I said he didn't overpay for Harden? Did you think I was implying that he has never overpaid for a player in his GM career?

mreinman
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2/11/2015  1:15 PM
barkley just proved that idiots should play while they should leave the thinking and designing to the smart people.

"dat dude ain't neva gone played da game, wah he know?"

what he also fails to realize is that analytic are making players much better and far more accountable.

so here is what phil is thinking ....
Nalod
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2/11/2015  1:20 PM

Bottom line is Analytics should be used as a tool. There are more than one tool to use.
Thats not controversial is it?
Bonn1997
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2/11/2015  1:22 PM
Nalod wrote:
Bottom line is Analytics should be used as a tool. There are more than one tool to use.
Thats not controversial is it?

Did you listen to Barkely? He would strongly disagree with you here.
gunsnewing
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2/11/2015  1:22 PM
For all the Barkley fans out there he is on ESPN radio with Lupica right now.

He just said miami and San antonio wins because of talent. What he fails to realize is both teams are and were made up of high efficiency 2way players

smackeddog
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2/11/2015  1:27 PM
gunsnewing wrote:For all the Barkley fans out there he is on ESPN radio with Lupica right now.

He just said miami and San antonio wins because of talent. What he fails to realize is both teams are and were made up of high efficiency 2way players

Isn't that just talent?

gunsnewing
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2/11/2015  1:29 PM
smackeddog wrote:
gunsnewing wrote:For all the Barkley fans out there he is on ESPN radio with Lupica right now.

He just said miami and San antonio wins because of talent. What he fails to realize is both teams are and were made up of high efficiency 2way players

Isn't that just talent?

No Melo is talent

Bonn1997
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2/11/2015  1:30 PM
gunsnewing wrote:For all the Barkley fans out there he is on ESPN radio with Lupica right now.

He just said miami and San antonio wins because of talent. What he fails to realize is both teams are and were made up of high efficiency 2way players

It's a shame that TNT, ESPN, and other sources won't give equal air time to metrics experts.

gunsnewing
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2/11/2015  1:32 PM    LAST EDITED: 2/11/2015  1:54 PM
San Antonio wins with depth. Their talent is old but efficient

Mavericks won with Dirk and a much of 2way efficient offensive and defensive players

Lebron Wade and bosh are some of the most efficient offensive/defensive players in the game. And they had guys like Haslem, Chalmers & Cole to help with defensive efficiency

Talent & metrics go hand in hand. Throughout the history of the league. Only recently have teams been more privy to the metrics of winning teams of the past and present

GustavBahler
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2/11/2015  1:40 PM
Nalod wrote:
Bottom line is Analytics should be used as a tool. There are more than one tool to use.
Thats not controversial is it?

It is to those who believe that analytics is the only tool in the toolbox.

Bonn1997
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2/11/2015  1:41 PM
GustavBahler wrote:
Nalod wrote:
Bottom line is Analytics should be used as a tool. There are more than one tool to use.
Thats not controversial is it?

It is to those who believe that analytics is the only tool in the toolbox.


I don't think many people, if anyone, actually think that
mreinman
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2/11/2015  1:50 PM
GustavBahler wrote:
Nalod wrote:
Bottom line is Analytics should be used as a tool. There are more than one tool to use.
Thats not controversial is it?

It is to those who believe that analytics is the only tool in the toolbox.

who are those guys?

so here is what phil is thinking ....
gunsnewing
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2/11/2015  1:58 PM
If it's only talent like Barkley says then Cleveland better win it all this year with Irving & Love. Now adding Mozgov & Shumpert has improved their defensive metrics so I'm much more of a believer now
gunsnewing
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2/11/2015  2:01 PM    LAST EDITED: 2/11/2015  2:34 PM
And if you are going to build around Melo you better hope you surround him with not only talent but high efficiency offensive & defensive metric players like Dallas surrounded Dirk with. This is if you want to get to Morey & the Rockets level
GustavBahler
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2/11/2015  2:01 PM
mreinman wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
Nalod wrote:
Bottom line is Analytics should be used as a tool. There are more than one tool to use.
Thats not controversial is it?

It is to those who believe that analytics is the only tool in the toolbox.

who are those guys?


I would say its anyone who sees no value in the eye test.

mreinman
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2/11/2015  2:14 PM
GustavBahler wrote:
mreinman wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
Nalod wrote:
Bottom line is Analytics should be used as a tool. There are more than one tool to use.
Thats not controversial is it?

It is to those who believe that analytics is the only tool in the toolbox.

who are those guys?


I would say its anyone who sees no value in the eye test.

every believes in the eye test as a criteria, however, some believe that the eyes can possibly be more deceiving then the stats though they both can be misleading.

so here is what phil is thinking ....
GustavBahler
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2/11/2015  2:27 PM
mreinman wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
mreinman wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
Nalod wrote:
Bottom line is Analytics should be used as a tool. There are more than one tool to use.
Thats not controversial is it?

It is to those who believe that analytics is the only tool in the toolbox.

who are those guys?


I would say its anyone who sees no value in the eye test.

every believes in the eye test as a criteria, however, some believe that the eyes can possibly be more deceiving then the stats though they both can be misleading.

I agree that both have their place. You can break down a player's performance in depth in ways that the eye test doesn't. You can watch a game and be able to pick apart a player's technique, strategy, in ways that the numbers can't. It also depends on who is watching the game and who is pouring over the numbers.

Barkley on Analytics

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