F500ONE wrote:

TripleThreat wrote:IMHO, Green would be a decent get at about 8-9 million a year. But at that rate, he might as well just go back to Golden State.

I think what he'll end up getting is about 10-11 million a year in practical terms. Unless a team like the Knicks want to make a gross overpay. IMHO a 13-15 million a year clip is a gross overpay for Draymond Green.

I do like his game, as a fan. I think he's got a lot of the intangibles and the heady plus defense the Knicks need, but IMHO he carries a lot of "system guy" risk for that kind of coin.

I think the issue with Draymond Green for the current Knicks is not to sign him, but to look at his situation and status and ask themselves

1) How can we improve our player evalutions/front office to mine a rotational player value like Green ourselves consistently. Giving the Knicks young cost controlled depth with upside.

2) How can we create a positive and sustainable system of player development to help young players hit their ceiling in terms of their potential.

Getting Green would help only marginally, esp at the max cost. To me, the bigger factor is how the Knicks set themselves up to find Greens all over the place/all the time because they are so ahead of the evaluation/development game over all the other franchises.

For 15 million a year, the expectation should be a matchup proof firebomber who will give you consistency every night as well as the other core intangibles.

If you're going to project opportunity cost on picks

In much of what you post, then you might want to do this when it comes

To this and salary cap opportunity costs down the road[NBA economic BOOM]

Draymond Green is real CULTURE CHANGING player

Matter of fact he has the ability to change the culture of a team

Even moreso than someone like Phil Jackson

Bringing someone like him shows the rest of the league

We truly appreciate and value the proper kind of talent and not the name sake blahzay talents only

You're probably right on where his true value lies but

In most cases every player is overpaid in this league

You have to overpay for the right ones

would carmelo anthinay still be a knickerbocker?

TripleThreat wrote:

F500ONE wrote:Draymond Green is real CULTURE CHANGING player

Draymond Green is 24 years old. Young? Yes. But still a former 4 year college player ( rare for these days) His fellow draftees from 2012 who were One And Dones are around 21.

Some studies have shown NBA players tend to peak around 24-26. Then an incremental decline phase that increases over time until the end of their careers. Obviously the non super star caliber players will decline earlier and tend to have shorter careers.

Could those three extra years explain his development so far? Sure. Could the Knicks be giving him a contract that covers his prime years? Possibly. Could the Knicks be paying him big money to cover a time period where they eat a decline phase halfway through? Possibly.

Some of you guys can feel how you want to feel. If you feel Draymond Green is a max player, then more power to you.

Personally, my take, I'm not so hot about spending 15 million a year on a player who hasn't proven he can truly move the needle for the Knicks over a much longer period of time. A nice season and a half doesn't move the needle for me, but I guess it might for some of you.

I suppose I just see a much more conservative approach to team building. I don't buy into the Briggs-ian Theory, where if a player has a great game the night before, then demand the team trade for him, or if a guy has a great college game, then he must be a draft target. Or if a player has a bad homestand stretch, he needs to be gutted and traded now. Overpays IMHO are reactions to losing and an franchise in desperate need of stability.

Teams get in trouble chasing the latest hot name. Only to chase the next hot name.

IMHO, the key to Draymond Green for the Knicks isn't getting him specifically, but learning how to get and develop players like him.

And if some of you think a 24 year old non All Star is going to suddenly wave his 15 million dollar a year check and be the big swinging dick that cracks down on the Knicks poor locker room culture and lack of leadership and suddenly course correct Melo, then I think some of you guys are bat**** insane.

A Paul Pierce has the hardware, experience, exposure, minutes and rapport to change a locker room culture. But I doubt it would be a Draymond Green.

I like Green as a fan and I like his game. Because Green can HELP A TEAM doesn't mean he's the BEST FIT TO HELP THIS TEAM.

so basically the knickerbockers are screwed no matter what they do... so long as melo does not allow himself to be traded?

TripleThreat wrote:

F500ONE wrote:Draymond Green is real CULTURE CHANGING player

Draymond Green is 24 years old. Young? Yes. But still a former 4 year college player ( rare for these days) His fellow draftees from 2012 who were One And Dones are around 21.

Some studies have shown NBA players tend to peak around 24-26. Then an incremental decline phase that increases over time until the end of their careers. Obviously the non super star caliber players will decline earlier and tend to have shorter careers.

Could those three extra years explain his development so far? Sure. Could the Knicks be giving him a contract that covers his prime years? Possibly. Could the Knicks be paying him big money to cover a time period where they eat a decline phase halfway through? Possibly.

Some of you guys can feel how you want to feel. If you feel Draymond Green is a max player, then more power to you.

Personally, my take, I'm not so hot about spending 15 million a year on a player who hasn't proven he can truly move the needle for the Knicks over a much longer period of time. A nice season and a half doesn't move the needle for me, but I guess it might for some of you.

I suppose I just see a much more conservative approach to team building. I don't buy into the Briggs-ian Theory, where if a player has a great game the night before, then demand the team trade for him, or if a guy has a great college game, then he must be a draft target. Or if a player has a bad homestand stretch, he needs to be gutted and traded now. Overpays IMHO are reactions to losing and an franchise in desperate need of stability.

Teams get in trouble chasing the latest hot name. Only to chase the next hot name.

IMHO, the key to Draymond Green for the Knicks isn't getting him specifically, but learning how to get and develop players like him.

And if some of you think a 24 year old non All Star is going to suddenly wave his 15 million dollar a year check and be the big swinging dick that cracks down on the Knicks poor locker room culture and lack of leadership and suddenly course correct Melo, then I think some of you guys are bat**** insane.

A Paul Pierce has the hardware, experience, exposure, minutes and rapport to change a locker room culture. But I doubt it would be a Draymond Green.

I like Green as a fan and I like his game. Because Green can HELP A TEAM doesn't mean he's the BEST FIT TO HELP THIS TEAM.

So what you are basically saying is, you want him to show you that he can flirt with triple double's for 2-3 seasons
Basically you want to see a player has the status of a Tim Duncan, a Lebron James, a Kevin Durant, before you offer them a contract....

By the standards and you have set with your own words, NO TEAM would ever allow a player to walk that has proven they are a MAX player over such a long period already
I want to know what were your thoughts of James Harden before he was traded to Houston...

By the standards you have just set for yourself, he was NOT an ALL STAR
He was unproven talent that Houston gambled on....

By your measures,
Players that prove that they are ALL STAR's will never be allowed to walk for NOTHING
We will never be able to acquire such PROVEN talent and we do not have the assets to even present a trade with...

Well, I said Harden was an ALL STAR prior to him getting traded and if OKC traded him they were complete idiots as they jeapordized a dynasty in the making

We do not have the assets to acquire PROVEN talents
Our team sucks too much to be able to attract any realistic FA's over

Everything that you said you would have done, already passed, it is easy to say this and that AFTER
Besides what makes you think Phil Jackson didn't try to trade Chandler and Iman for a 1st rounder?

What would you do now and how would you do it to better the Knick's situation is the question
not
what you could have done or what you think you could have done

Dray is a bit scary to me when he has been very spotty in his career.

That being said, sometimes you need to take a risk and perhaps he is worthy for a risk take based on this season.

TripleThreat wrote:

F500ONE wrote:Draymond Green is real CULTURE CHANGING player

Draymond Green is 24 years old. Young? Yes. But still a former 4 year college player ( rare for these days) His fellow draftees from 2012 who were One And Dones are around 21.

Some studies have shown NBA players tend to peak around 24-26. Then an incremental decline phase that increases over time until the end of their careers. Obviously the non super star caliber players will decline earlier and tend to have shorter careers.

Could those three extra years explain his development so far? Sure. Could the Knicks be giving him a contract that covers his prime years? Possibly. Could the Knicks be paying him big money to cover a time period where they eat a decline phase halfway through? Possibly.

Some of you guys can feel how you want to feel. If you feel Draymond Green is a max player, then more power to you.

Personally, my take, I'm not so hot about spending 15 million a year on a player who hasn't proven he can truly move the needle for the Knicks over a much longer period of time. A nice season and a half doesn't move the needle for me, but I guess it might for some of you.

I suppose I just see a much more conservative approach to team building. I don't buy into the Briggs-ian Theory, where if a player has a great game the night before, then demand the team trade for him, or if a guy has a great college game, then he must be a draft target. Or if a player has a bad homestand stretch, he needs to be gutted and traded now. Overpays IMHO are reactions to losing and an franchise in desperate need of stability.

Teams get in trouble chasing the latest hot name. Only to chase the next hot name.

IMHO, the key to Draymond Green for the Knicks isn't getting him specifically, but learning how to get and develop players like him.

And if some of you think a 24 year old non All Star is going to suddenly wave his 15 million dollar a year check and be the big swinging dick that cracks down on the Knicks poor locker room culture and lack of leadership and suddenly course correct Melo, then I think some of you guys are bat**** insane.

A Paul Pierce has the hardware, experience, exposure, minutes and rapport to change a locker room culture. But I doubt it would be a Draymond Green.

I like Green as a fan and I like his game. Because Green can HELP A TEAM doesn't mean he's the BEST FIT TO HELP THIS TEAM.

You're acting like we're giving him a

2005 CBA Max deal it isn't a 6 or 7yr deal it's not at 30-35%

Is a 4yr deal too long for a player entering the prime yrs, NO!

His last year or 2 is at the cusp of NEW MONEY

His max is far less than Meload's Max, we have no legit 2-way players on this team

Draymond is pretty much changing personality of GSW's team

He's called them out on a few occasions this yr as being too nice, too soft

He said they played boring against the Clippers and they shouldn't be trying to like them

Now you have Curry ready to dust it up with Ariza

Klay taking gashes to the head and coming back same game still droppin buckets on dudes

To the degree it peaked for a cool fiddy recently

He has them all playing with an edge

Once again how many Draymond Greens are in this league

Start naming them, maybe 1 and his name is JIMMY BUTLER[we're not getting him]

One most certainly a Max player, the other// if on the fringe

Is only gettable maybe once in a 5-10yr cycle and that's it

Our Merucry will rise with Green a lot faster than other players

[Monroe, Dragic, Jackson, Tobias, Tristan///// so you want to hurl chunks then swallow on them]

In this league, If Phil could pull off a Brandon Knight and Draymond Green summer

The perfect Jekyll and Hyde combo this team desperately needs

Then he'd leave no choice than to believe, like I said he's gonna overpay for someone

Let it be players like them

The greatest benefit to Draymond might be time. He came and plays in the league where advance stats culture is strong and preached. This may prevent him from becoming a Josh Smith type offensively. What is scary is the at 24 Josh Smith looked just like Green and put up similar numbers despite shooting so many long twos. He was getting hyped up because ATL started getting into the playoffs and the culture was changing but he never grew. Maybe Josh long twos and Draymond threes will be the difference. It just becomes a big risk when you look at one year.

F500ONE wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:Josh Smith is the comparison I made. They are roughly the same height, size, and length. You just have to hope that Green could become a better 3pt shooter, unlike Smith, Draymond doesn't take many long twos. One thing Josh did better was get to the line but he was/is a bad FT shooter. Draymond doesn't get to the line much but also struggles to shoot a high percentage. If he moves to another team will he be ask to become more aggressive offensively? Will that aggressiveness lead to worst shooting? We will not know until it happens. However if it happens the Josh Smith comparison will ring more true especially maxed out making similar money to what Josh made.

The greatest benefit to Draymond might be time. He came and plays in the league where advance stats culture is strong and preached. This may prevent him from becoming a Josh Smith type offensively. What is scary is the at 24 Josh Smith looked just like Green and put up similar numbers despite shooting so many long twos. He was getting hyped up because ATL started getting into the playoffs and the culture was changing but he never grew. Maybe Josh long twos and Draymond threes will be the difference. It just becomes a big risk when you look at one year.

Maybe how he could impact the game in a positive way

But as a thinker they are nothing a like and how they bring

A team together instead of throwing off the continuity

This is huge difference, and these nuances have to be taken into consideration

It is being taken into consideration but his game impact while being a heady impact is still basically the same as a 24 y/o Smith. Now going forward you would hope that his thinking carries him to grow more as a player where Smith never really did. Another comparison would be is a better passing Millsap. That is the hope I think teams think he can become. The difference is that Millsap came out the box playing well on both sides. He was always a 50% shooter from 2 whereas this is Green's first year shooting so high. Will that continue and again can he get to the stripe? Those are the risks you have to decide.

dk7th wrote:

F500ONE wrote:

TripleThreat wrote:

F500ONE wrote:Draymond Green is real CULTURE CHANGING player

Draymond Green is 24 years old. Young? Yes. But still a former 4 year college player ( rare for these days) His fellow draftees from 2012 who were One And Dones are around 21.

Some studies have shown NBA players tend to peak around 24-26. Then an incremental decline phase that increases over time until the end of their careers. Obviously the non super star caliber players will decline earlier and tend to have shorter careers.

Could those three extra years explain his development so far? Sure. Could the Knicks be giving him a contract that covers his prime years? Possibly. Could the Knicks be paying him big money to cover a time period where they eat a decline phase halfway through? Possibly.

Some of you guys can feel how you want to feel. If you feel Draymond Green is a max player, then more power to you.

Personally, my take, I'm not so hot about spending 15 million a year on a player who hasn't proven he can truly move the needle for the Knicks over a much longer period of time. A nice season and a half doesn't move the needle for me, but I guess it might for some of you.

I suppose I just see a much more conservative approach to team building. I don't buy into the Briggs-ian Theory, where if a player has a great game the night before, then demand the team trade for him, or if a guy has a great college game, then he must be a draft target. Or if a player has a bad homestand stretch, he needs to be gutted and traded now. Overpays IMHO are reactions to losing and an franchise in desperate need of stability.

Teams get in trouble chasing the latest hot name. Only to chase the next hot name.

IMHO, the key to Draymond Green for the Knicks isn't getting him specifically, but learning how to get and develop players like him.

And if some of you think a 24 year old non All Star is going to suddenly wave his 15 million dollar a year check and be the big swinging dick that cracks down on the Knicks poor locker room culture and lack of leadership and suddenly course correct Melo, then I think some of you guys are bat**** insane.

A Paul Pierce has the hardware, experience, exposure, minutes and rapport to change a locker room culture. But I doubt it would be a Draymond Green.

I like Green as a fan and I like his game. Because Green can HELP A TEAM doesn't mean he's the BEST FIT TO HELP THIS TEAM.

You're acting like we're giving him a

2005 CBA Max deal it isn't a 6 or 7yr deal it's not at 30-35%

Is a 4yr deal too long for a player entering the prime yrs, NO!

His last year or 2 is at the cusp of NEW MONEY

His max is far less than Meload's Max, we have no legit 2-way players on this team

Draymond is pretty much changing personality of GSW's team

He's called them out on a few occasions this yr as being too nice, too soft

He said they played boring against the Clippers and they shouldn't be trying to like them

Now you have Curry ready to dust it up with Ariza

Klay taking gashes to the head and coming back same game still droppin buckets on dudes

To the degree it peaked for a cool fiddy recently

He has them all playing with an edge

Once again how many Draymond Greens are in this league

Start naming them, maybe 1 and his name is JIMMY BUTLER[we're not getting him]

One most certainly a Max player, the other// if on the fringe

Is only gettable maybe once in a 5-10yr cycle and that's it

Our Merucry will rise with Green a lot faster than other players

[Monroe, Dragic, Jackson, Tobias, Tristan///// so you want to hurl chunks then swallow on them]

In this league, If Phil could pull off a Brandon Knight and Draymond Green summer

The perfect Jekyll and Hyde combo this team desperately needs

Then he'd leave no choice than to believe, like I said he's gonna overpay for someone

Let it be players like them

ok man point taken... now let's say we get him... melo is still on the team with a no-trade clause. thoughts on how you foresee this scenario unfolding?

I'd fear for Melo's life because Dray will lay hands on him

If he attempts the crap he has his whole career

When coming here he'll knock all of Melo's hats off

Just to get things started with setting the tone

It could have an affect like back in 2008-2009

When Billups showed on the scene and became the better player

STATMELO wrote:Whoever thinks Draymond Green is a role player doesn't watch him play period...

Whoever watches Draymond Green and says he's just a role player has a flawed view of what basketball is and how to play it period...

That is the problem, many use boxscores to analyze talent

Yet they forget the GS is a team that the #1 philosophy if the system is to hit the open man
Yes, both Klay Thompson and Curry both have the green light to shoot whenever, however, neither plays for numbers and stats

While plenty of players in the NBA know how to manipulate STAT's and look to produce big numbers, that style of play does not translate to W's
In order to maximize the abilities of talents, players all my sacrifice for the better of the team, all for the better of the system and W's

Everyone is utilized as a threat in GS and they use the abilities of all players BB IQ, ability to stretch the floor, and the versatility of everyone on the floor
That is winning basketball and this is how teams will the future will continue to build their teams, as evidence by Poppavich and the Spur's for many years

Now many teams continue to execute this style of play with the their GM's on building a team
It is just must for efficient

So when analyzing talent you cannot justify one's abilities by looking at the numbers they produce or do not produce, but simply by watching the games themselves
Numbers are the outcome of the game and not the measure one of one's talent

Contracts can use numbers for validating what a player may be worth and CA sure knew how to fully utilize that while playing for Woodson, even when his entire team was not happy with the style of play and the outcome of the games
But again, numbers to not reflect the talent of an individual, especially when the system of the teams and players play as a selfless team

Kyle Korver
Kawaii Leanard
Jimmy Butler

All the players above
Were all once regarded as "role players, at least at one time, and in some eyes, they still might be role players and products of the team and players around them
However, their importance to each of their teams outweight's the boxscores that each player produces on a nightly basis

mreinman wrote:

RonRon wrote:

STATMELO wrote:Whoever thinks Draymond Green is a role player doesn't watch him play period...

Whoever watches Draymond Green and says he's just a role player has a flawed view of what basketball is and how to play it period...

That is the problem, many use boxscores to analyze talent

Yet they forget the GS is a team that the #1 philosophy if the system is to hit the open man
Yes, both Klay Thompson and Curry both have the green light to shoot whenever, however, neither plays for numbers and stats

While plenty of players in the NBA know how to manipulate STAT's and look to produce big numbers, that style of play does not translate to W's
In order to maximize the abilities of talents, players all my sacrifice for the better of the team, all for the better of the system and W's

Everyone is utilized as a threat in GS and they use the abilities of all players BB IQ, ability to stretch the floor, and the versatility of everyone on the floor
That is winning basketball and this is how teams will the future will continue to build their teams, as evidence by Poppavich and the Spur's for many years

Now many teams continue to execute this style of play with the their GM's on building a team
It is just must for efficient

So when analyzing talent you cannot justify one's abilities by looking at the numbers they produce or do not produce, but simply by watching the games themselves
Numbers are the outcome of the game and not the measure one of one's talent

Contracts can use numbers for validating what a player may be worth and CA sure knew how to fully utilize that while playing for Woodson, even when his entire team was not happy with the style of play and the outcome of the games
But again, numbers to not reflect the talent of an individual, especially when the system of the teams and players play as a selfless team

Kyle Korver
Kawaii Leanard
Jimmy Butler

All the players above
Were all once regarded as "role players, at least at one time, and in some eyes, they still might be role players and products of the team and players around them
However, their importance to each of their teams outweight's the boxscores that each player produces on a nightly basis

The eye test is fine. Doing it without knowing all the the stats will just have you making really bad decisions.

If you are going to only use one then the stats should definitely be chosen over the eyes.

Not really it depends on the kind of players

What Ron said has merit did you really need to look at stats

To know if Magic was the greatest point guard ever, in particular his 3pt and defense

Same with Jordan would you not max him out because of his mediocre 3pt shooting

Looking at stats heavily can do you in too

I think stats have more impact when looking at players who are younger

Players who don't play heavy minutes but could in a larger role

When trying to improve in certain areas on a team within a system

Other than this eye test > stats-advanced metrics