fishmike wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

fishmike wrote:Most grossly overrated player.

Didnt like the trade either. Thought they should have kept Wiggins, put him at SF, moved Irving to the 2, let Lebron run the point, and traded Waiters to shore up their frontline. They got Mosgov, but without Love and his contract, they could have done a better job of upgrading their bench, and would have kept their 1st round pick.

exactly. Cavs were picked to win close to 60 games. They are a .500 team. The reason? People thought Love was a star. He's not.

You're right about the David Lee comparison, Lee was also getting benched by MDA (of all people) for his D in the 4th. Looks like he is on the outs in GS. Love would have been a better fit there IMO. I don't believe he is a superstar, but offensively I do believe he is in the upper echelon.

fishmike wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:Wow, I'd rank Melo a tier or more below Love but I can see this discussion will go nowhere.

Show me the #s, achievements, win totals, metrics, win shares, ANYTHING your basing that on. I know its not the eyes...

Its not even close. Even "I hate Melo every day" GunsnEwing admits Melo is a tier ABOVE. Your right the discussion would go nowhere because there isnt much to discuss. Im sure DK could chip in but he also thinks Gallo is better than Melo

I'd add to my list that health is part of the reason the Cavs have been disappointing. They have been a .600 team when the big 3 is together.

fishmike wrote:Most grossly overrated player.

I can't stand him. He has zero impact on the game- I don't even think he's better than David Lee

fishmike wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:Wow, I'd rank Melo a tier or more below Love but I can see this discussion will go nowhere.

Show me the #s, achievements, win totals, metrics, win shares, ANYTHING your basing that on. I know its not the eyes...

Its not even close. Even "I hate Melo every day" GunsnEwing admits Melo is a tier ABOVE. Your right the discussion would go nowhere because there isnt much to discuss. Im sure DK could chip in but he also thinks Gallo is better than Melo

I can type the exact #s later in the day since I have to get ready for an 11AM meeting. But win shares, wins produced, adjusted plus/minus #s, and offensive and defensive production per 100 possessions are what I look at. I'd have to double check the adjusted plus/minus but I know off the top of my head that all the other #s significantly favor Love.

I'd add to my list that health is part of the reason the Cavs have been disappointing. They have been a .600 team when the big 3 is together.

you obviously didnt include Love's health into your factoring of him being better than Melo. Also take a look at 82games data and see what opposing players do when they are opposite Love vs. Melo. Its not even close. We all agree Melo isnt a lock down defender but look at what opposing players do vs. what they do vs. Love and Love really gets exposed there.

Im going to let this go. If you really think Love is a better player in the NBA than Melo thats your business.

82games.com opponent production? OK. It says his opponent production this year is 18.0 and was 15.8 in last year's larger sample. The average is 15.0. So he's a slightly below average defensive player based on that metric. I'm not sure if you were referring to something else on 82games.com. I see this year his opponent has a 54% efg%, which is worse than average (50%). But Love is also getting FIVE more rebounds per 48 min than the man he's guarding. The defensive rebounding is significantly helping Love's defensive #s. He's giving up 4 more made shots per 100 than the average defender, which basically would mean 1 more shot every 2 to 3 games. In contrast, he's out-rebounding his man by about 4 per game.

Based on basketball reference's per 100 #s, defensively he gives up 106, which is average or slightly better than average. In contrast, he contributes 117 points per 100 possessions.

In terms of your comment on the eyes, we see what we expect to see. With Melo, I see a guy who scores a lot of points but doesn't contribute beyond average production anywhere else. With Love, I see a guy who does the same but at least adds a ton of rebounds. Love does score more efficiently than Melo but I doubt that's something the human eye will pick up on. Last year, Love got a ton of assists too but that seems to have stopped.

Bonn1997 wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

fishmike wrote:Most grossly overrated player.

I can't stand him. He has zero impact on the game- I don't even think he's better than David Lee

Are you serious? You're not even going to make an argument? He's the biggest change the T-Wolves made and they're going to win 30 less games. You're saying zero of those 30 are due to losing Love? That's not plausible

You can't use that argument- how many players that played in last years team are playing at the moment and haven't been out injured? Why are you claiming he's the main change they've made? We can't determine that, they're a completely different team this year- see how few of last years players are still on the roster:

Rubio (out injured)
Love (traded)
Brewer (traded)
K-Mart (Injured)
Pekovic (injured)
Cunningham (traded)
Barea (cut)
Dieng
Mbah a Moute (traded)
Budinger
Shved (traded)
Turiaf (traded)
Williams (traded)
Price (gone)
Muhammad

But yeah, lets pretend Kevin Love is the only important change that affected things! That's my problem with you these days- you pretend to be all scientific, but really you shamelessly twist the info to suit your feelings. i don't have a problem with you arguing from your gut, but at least be honest thats what you're doing.

I don't know about you guys but if we went into next year with a front line of Towns/Love/Melo playing in and passing/shooting the ball out of the triangle -- we might be pretty good.

smackeddog wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

fishmike wrote:Most grossly overrated player.

I can't stand him. He has zero impact on the game- I don't even think he's better than David Lee

Are you serious? You're not even going to make an argument? He's the biggest change the T-Wolves made and they're going to win 30 less games. You're saying zero of those 30 are due to losing Love? That's not plausible

You can't use that argument- how many players that played in last years team are playing at the moment and haven't been out injured? Why are you claiming he's the main change they've made? We can't determine that, they're a completely different team this year- see how few of last years players are still on the roster:

Rubio (out injured)
Love (traded)
Brewer (traded)
K-Mart (Injured)
Pekovic (injured)
Cunningham (traded)
Barea (cut)
Dieng
Mbah a Moute (traded)
Budinger
Shved (traded)
Turiaf (traded)
Williams (traded)
Price (gone)
Muhammad

But yeah, lets pretend Kevin Love is the only important change that affected things! That's my problem with you these days- you pretend to be all scientific, but really you shamelessly twist the info to suit your feelings. i don't have a problem with you arguing from your gut, but at least be honest thats what you're doing.

*By no means* did I say he's the only change. I said biggest, and I think most people would say he's a more important player than Cunningham or any of the other guys you listed. You still haven't cited *anything* to support your claim that he's a zero impact player.
I've been pretty clear that I wouldn't even use team w-l record to evaluate a player. The only reason I even mentioned the win decline is that team w-l is usually the most common criticism people have of Love. I was just bringing it up pre-emptively and it probably wasn't a good idea because it's steering the discussion away from the much more important metrics available (see discussion with Fish)

How many 1st tier stars are there?