TripleThreat wrote:

nixluva wrote:You know one way of looking at him having this kind of game once a month is that there's untapped potential there. You don't have to take the purely cynical view that he's never going to be more than he is. He's 24 and actually getting better. He's not a great player but IMO he should be an option if we don't get Okafor in the draft.

We can go after a defensive center to play alongside him in much the same way he's used now. It's just an option but I think it's worth keeping an eye on his game the rest of the year. There's a saying "Don't let the Perfect be the enemy of the Good". We can't pass on every player because he's not the greatest ever. How many FA's are literally worth what they're likely to get this summer? How many do we legitimately have a chance to get? He would be one piece of a puzzle and not the whole thing.

Ok, let's roll with your scenario.

Let's say the Knicks sign Greg Monroe to the max ( because he's not taking less than that, clearly he opted out so he could chase the max) and let's say he actually wanted to sign here in NY. ( because some guys here just assume the Knicks can get whomever they want to sign as if it was that easy)

You say, well just sign a defensive center to play alongside him.

A starting caliber NBA center who can do what Monroe does not do, i.e defend the rim and give passable offense and won't foul out after 10 minutes on the floor, is going to cost you 10-12 million a year easy.

This decision will also force Melo to play the wing position for the length of those two contracts since he can't play power forward anymore as Monroe will be PF next your projected also acquired center. The same hobbling Melo who isn't playing right now.

Since Monroe can't shoot at long range, now you have the issue of floor spacing. Unless you get a Stretch 5 or force Melo to camp out on the perimeter to try to balance out the offense. Now you've neutralized your center's ability to give you offensive rebounding. Also you've taken Melo away from the basket, where his ability to work the low post as a PF is actually a situation where he gives the Knicks a positive consistent mismatch to exploit.

Greg Monroe + starting defensive free agent center ( because if you draft a center, it will take years for him to develop properly) means you are capped out. The Knicks then still have no bench, and no wings to guard the perimeter.

How many Stretch 5's out there that can consistently play above and defend the rim? And cover defensively for a unit that pushes out Melo, Calderon, Monroe and THJr? Even if you could find one and were willing to pay one, the Knicks have to come to a point where they have to understand you can't have one plus defender and four minus defenders and expect one player to completely anchor the defense alone. That will mentally break any player over time.

No one says Greg Monroe can never be more than what he is right now. What people CAN SAY is that Greg Monroe is likely to only be incrementally or marginally better than what he is right now. Can he develop a long range shot with time and hard work? Yes. Can he grade up with blood and sweat to just a shade under average defensively? Yes. But he's not suddenly going to start raining threes and patrol the paint like a young Olajuwon.

What did the Knicks have with Melo, STAT and Chandler?

A capped out team that was overloaded on the front line with no assets and no room to get true help in the backcourt. A miscast PF who is forced to be a SF who can't defend the wing position and offers no leadership. A power forward who can't space the floor with a three point shot or defend the rim. And a center you force to be the entire defense and put that burden on his back. And no point guard or wing help, just what you can find on the fringes of the NBA churn cycle.

What will the Knicks have with a maxed out Melo, a maxed out Greg Monroe and your projected free agent "defensive center"? Plus being stuck with Calderon and his contract until he hits the way way wrong side of his 30s and THJr's defense?

A capped out team that is overloaded on the front line with no assets and no room to get true help in the backcourt. A miscast PF who is forced to be a SF who can't defend the wing position and offers no leadership. A power forward who can't space the floor with a three point shot or defend the rim. And a center you force to be the entire defense and put that burden on his back. And no point guard or wing help, just what you can find on the fringes of the NBA churn cycle.

This is not cynicism, this kind of team breakdown ( where you can't just take the next hottest name on the market and treat him like a pure asset in a vacuum without factoring in how he fits with the ENTIRE team situation) is why Monroe is going to AVAILABLE IN THE FIRST PLACE. If Monroe didn't create these trade offs and questions for his projected cap hit, the Pistons would HAVE MAXED HIM OUT AND RESIGNED HIM ALREADY.

Nixluva, you have an unsettling and consistent habit of pointing your finger at other people here for disagreeing with you, when IMHO, for the most part, the issue is you have close to no concept of how a winning NBA team is actually built and developed against a finite number of resources.

The "well he's better than nothing" is the same kind of reasoning that got the Knicks into this current hell in the first place.

One thing I think I've heard both Bill Belichick and Billy Beane say over the years is that signing a player to your team for length and money is kind of like getting into a marriage. For better or worse, there's a locked in union between the player and the franchise. And here's something I learned even as a teenager - Don't marry a dumb stupid nagging whore just because she's got a big pair of tits. Because one day, she won't be a big pair of tits anymore, she'll just be an old sagging dumb stupid nagging whore who chisels away at you.

Nixluva, I'm not saying Greg Monroe is a whore, but I am saying, you might find some objectivity here if you stopped staring at his big jiggling tits.

That was awesome!!!

You now have me actually reading your long posts :-)

mreinman wrote:

TripleThreat wrote:

nixluva wrote:You know one way of looking at him having this kind of game once a month is that there's untapped potential there. You don't have to take the purely cynical view that he's never going to be more than he is. He's 24 and actually getting better. He's not a great player but IMO he should be an option if we don't get Okafor in the draft.

We can go after a defensive center to play alongside him in much the same way he's used now. It's just an option but I think it's worth keeping an eye on his game the rest of the year. There's a saying "Don't let the Perfect be the enemy of the Good". We can't pass on every player because he's not the greatest ever. How many FA's are literally worth what they're likely to get this summer? How many do we legitimately have a chance to get? He would be one piece of a puzzle and not the whole thing.

Ok, let's roll with your scenario.

Let's say the Knicks sign Greg Monroe to the max ( because he's not taking less than that, clearly he opted out so he could chase the max) and let's say he actually wanted to sign here in NY. ( because some guys here just assume the Knicks can get whomever they want to sign as if it was that easy)

You say, well just sign a defensive center to play alongside him.

A starting caliber NBA center who can do what Monroe does not do, i.e defend the rim and give passable offense and won't foul out after 10 minutes on the floor, is going to cost you 10-12 million a year easy.

This decision will also force Melo to play the wing position for the length of those two contracts since he can't play power forward anymore as Monroe will be PF next your projected also acquired center. The same hobbling Melo who isn't playing right now.

Since Monroe can't shoot at long range, now you have the issue of floor spacing. Unless you get a Stretch 5 or force Melo to camp out on the perimeter to try to balance out the offense. Now you've neutralized your center's ability to give you offensive rebounding. Also you've taken Melo away from the basket, where his ability to work the low post as a PF is actually a situation where he gives the Knicks a positive consistent mismatch to exploit.

Greg Monroe + starting defensive free agent center ( because if you draft a center, it will take years for him to develop properly) means you are capped out. The Knicks then still have no bench, and no wings to guard the perimeter.

How many Stretch 5's out there that can consistently play above and defend the rim? And cover defensively for a unit that pushes out Melo, Calderon, Monroe and THJr? Even if you could find one and were willing to pay one, the Knicks have to come to a point where they have to understand you can't have one plus defender and four minus defenders and expect one player to completely anchor the defense alone. That will mentally break any player over time.

No one says Greg Monroe can never be more than what he is right now. What people CAN SAY is that Greg Monroe is likely to only be incrementally or marginally better than what he is right now. Can he develop a long range shot with time and hard work? Yes. Can he grade up with blood and sweat to just a shade under average defensively? Yes. But he's not suddenly going to start raining threes and patrol the paint like a young Olajuwon.

What did the Knicks have with Melo, STAT and Chandler?

A capped out team that was overloaded on the front line with no assets and no room to get true help in the backcourt. A miscast PF who is forced to be a SF who can't defend the wing position and offers no leadership. A power forward who can't space the floor with a three point shot or defend the rim. And a center you force to be the entire defense and put that burden on his back. And no point guard or wing help, just what you can find on the fringes of the NBA churn cycle.

What will the Knicks have with a maxed out Melo, a maxed out Greg Monroe and your projected free agent "defensive center"? Plus being stuck with Calderon and his contract until he hits the way way wrong side of his 30s and THJr's defense?

A capped out team that is overloaded on the front line with no assets and no room to get true help in the backcourt. A miscast PF who is forced to be a SF who can't defend the wing position and offers no leadership. A power forward who can't space the floor with a three point shot or defend the rim. And a center you force to be the entire defense and put that burden on his back. And no point guard or wing help, just what you can find on the fringes of the NBA churn cycle.

This is not cynicism, this kind of team breakdown ( where you can't just take the next hottest name on the market and treat him like a pure asset in a vacuum without factoring in how he fits with the ENTIRE team situation) is why Monroe is going to AVAILABLE IN THE FIRST PLACE. If Monroe didn't create these trade offs and questions for his projected cap hit, the Pistons would HAVE MAXED HIM OUT AND RESIGNED HIM ALREADY.

Nixluva, you have an unsettling and consistent habit of pointing your finger at other people here for disagreeing with you, when IMHO, for the most part, the issue is you have close to no concept of how a winning NBA team is actually built and developed against a finite number of resources.

The "well he's better than nothing" is the same kind of reasoning that got the Knicks into this current hell in the first place.

One thing I think I've heard both Bill Belichick and Billy Beane say over the years is that signing a player to your team for length and money is kind of like getting into a marriage. For better or worse, there's a locked in union between the player and the franchise. And here's something I learned even as a teenager - Don't marry a dumb stupid nagging whore just because she's got a big pair of tits. Because one day, she won't be a big pair of tits anymore, she'll just be an old sagging dumb stupid nagging whore who chisels away at you.

Nixluva, I'm not saying Greg Monroe is a whore, but I am saying, you might find some objectivity here if you stopped staring at his big jiggling tits.

That was awesome!!!

You now have me actually reading your long posts :-)

Greg Monroe's big jiggling tits! Thats the best thing I've read all weekend. LOL!

nixluva wrote:All that well crafted BS that was posted above still doesn't mean that it's going to play out the way TripleThreat suggests. Also once again I submit to you that we could use a player who can do things like this and is currently only 24.

MIN	FG%	REB	AST	BLK	STL	PF	PTS
36	.545	17	2	0	0	1	16

He's doing this in the NBA and not some D League stint. People need to at least show some sense of perspective. Some of you act like Monroe up to this point has shown all that he's ever going to be. We could be seeing a player who is coming into their prime and another level. We'll see how the rest of his season goes, but we don't have a player right now that has put together 17/16, much less 27/18. Can we cut the BS?

nixluva wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

nixluva wrote:All that well crafted BS that was posted above still doesn't mean that it's going to play out the way TripleThreat suggests. Also once again I submit to you that we could use a player who can do things like this and is currently only 24.

MIN	FG%	REB	AST	BLK	STL	PF	PTS
36	.545	17	2	0	0	1	16

He's doing this in the NBA and not some D League stint. People need to at least show some sense of perspective. Some of you act like Monroe up to this point has shown all that he's ever going to be. We could be seeing a player who is coming into their prime and another level. We'll see how the rest of his season goes, but we don't have a player right now that has put together 17/16, much less 27/18. Can we cut the BS?

Second night of a back to back. He played 37 minutes the night before.

I just get tired of the nonsense around here. Any of us who suggest that there could be a better option get attacked and called naive. This man is going to be an UFA and if i'm Phil I would have to at least consider bringing him in and i'm POSITIVE Monroe's agent will want his client to come to New York and get the full treatment and exposure as well as a serious consideration of the Knicks offer.

Sure the Pistons are playing better but his agent will be considering every aspect of his clients future. As bad as things look Detroit was right down there with the Knicks not long ago. It isn't impossible for Phil to lay out his vision which would include Melo who would be the best player Monroe has played with, plus whoever we draft and subsequent FA pick ups. He could perhaps convince him that this team has every chance to put together an even better team than whatever he could have in Detroit. It would be on Phil and his staff to do that and get him to believe it. The same as it would be for all possible FA's we'd look to get.

Don't mind TT. Ask him to be objective and honest when he posts about Melo, Lin, Phil, Tyson, the Knicks scouting department etc. Not much there most of the time if you take a close look.

Greg Monroe is not perfect--but hes very good. ANY player who can score 20 points pull down 20 rebounds or have 8 assists in a game before the age of 24 has a lot of talent. he is not a high flyer so he should stay healthy. Hes 6-11 260

I do NOT think we should get anything more than 1 max free agent 1 I do NOT think we should pay 7 or 8mm UNLESS its a one year deal. But I would like to get one really good player and if its Monroe--I have almost no problem paying him the 68mm over 4 years

Lets go through the draft first--see where were at.

My goal is aggresiveness in the draft

1 max FA

1-2 smaller contracts

rest 1 year w 2nd year option contract or 1 year rentals where we take in the contract for compensation. Cap spaoe much be kept flexible but we need to improve drastically.

Monroe's numbers are very inflated

It's kind of like the Kevin Love effect

Except he's not as good as Kevin Love

Empty stats when you do the eye test

nixluva wrote:

H1AND1 wrote:

nixluva wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

nixluva wrote:All that well crafted BS that was posted above still doesn't mean that it's going to play out the way TripleThreat suggests. Also once again I submit to you that we could use a player who can do things like this and is currently only 24.

MIN	FG%	REB	AST	BLK	STL	PF	PTS
36	.545	17	2	0	0	1	16

He's doing this in the NBA and not some D League stint. People need to at least show some sense of perspective. Some of you act like Monroe up to this point has shown all that he's ever going to be. We could be seeing a player who is coming into their prime and another level. We'll see how the rest of his season goes, but we don't have a player right now that has put together 17/16, much less 27/18. Can we cut the BS?

Second night of a back to back. He played 37 minutes the night before.

I just get tired of the nonsense around here. Any of us who suggest that there could be a better option get attacked and called naive. This man is going to be an UFA and if i'm Phil I would have to at least consider bringing him in and i'm POSITIVE Monroe's agent will want his client to come to New York and get the full treatment and exposure as well as a serious consideration of the Knicks offer.

Sure the Pistons are playing better but his agent will be considering every aspect of his clients future. As bad as things look Detroit was right down there with the Knicks not long ago. It isn't impossible for Phil to lay out his vision which would include Melo who would be the best player Monroe has played with, plus whoever we draft and subsequent FA pick ups. He could perhaps convince him that this team has every chance to put together an even better team than whatever he could have in Detroit. It would be on Phil and his staff to do that and get him to believe it. The same as it would be for all possible FA's we'd look to get.

At the same time not everyone who is against signing Monroe is simply being negative and pessimistic. I've stated several times why I do not want any part of Monroe and it has nothing to do with simply bashing positivity.

I'll say it again, yes, Monroe has a lot of talent and could be a budding star but at the same time I DO NOT want the Knicks to max him out. Mostly because for all of the blossoming his offensive game his defensive acumen remains BAD. If rather not blow mega bucks on a one way PF. Further, it would be my preference (and didn't Phil say this same thing) to take a piecemeal approach to free agency where he doesn't blow the entire load on 1 or 2 max guys but instead targets several cheaper solid options. Monroe and his mega agent would love NY's attention because that means they can up the bids and get a huge offer. Again, no thanks.

Give me someone like Amir Johnson at half Monroe's price ANY DAY OF THE WEEK.

So please, don't imply everyone who doesn't like Monroe is doing so out of some agenda to bash phil and the Knicks. That's simply not the case. Some of us simply don't think signing a one way player like Monroe to mega bucks is the best way forward considering we already have a one way forward eating up $25,000,000 of the cap. This team needs to be built out VERY VERY smartly from here on out with Melo on the roster and blowing another 1/3 of the cap on Monroe would be a fatal error.

You and others are overstating Monroe's negatives. While he's not a great interior defensive presence he's not as bad as it's being presented. In addition he's stepped up his rebounding which is far from making him a one way player.

As for his hit to the cap you can't expect to spend nothing for quality in free agency. Monroe isn't perfect but he is a clear step up for a team with a huge need to improve talent. He's merely one option and depending on how the draft goes it could impact who Phil targets.

And you are overstating his positives IMHO.

And I'm not expecting to spend "nothing" in free agency. I know talent costs money. However there is a clear difference between the upper class to which Monroe is aspiring to belong to second tier FA's who are a helluva better bargain per dollar. We can get most of Monroes' production AND BETTER DEFENSE AND RIM PROTECTION, at much lower than the max Monroe wants. That's the point. Monroe is out there and is a good player but at an inflated cost. Again, give me someone like Amir Johnson who does 80% of what he does + better defense for 2/3 the price. Or Robin Lopez or Paul Milsap. All these guys are just as good production wise and cheaper. Monroe is a shiny object hopefully phil won't fall for it (and I hope he won't after the Presser where he said he was going for a piecemeal approach to building the team).

1. Greg Monroe is 60 out of 487 NBA players in Defensive Win Shares.
2. Greg Monroe has a Defensive Rating of 104 which is exactly the same as Taj Gibson, Nikola Vucevic, Al Jefferson, Cody Zeller and Brandon Wright, One point behind Tyson Chandler, Nerlens Noel and Javale McGee and one point better than Mozgov, Faried, Tyler Zeller and Miles Plumlee.

Despite all of the armchair scouting on Monroe, I think his deficiencies are overstated. No he's not elite defensively. He's not even very good, but he's nowhere near the really bad defender that people are trying to make him out to be. He could be better and i'd hope that the coaches would work with him and demand more of him if he came here.

TripleThreat wrote:

nixluva wrote:You and others are overstating Monroe's negatives. While he's not a great interior defensive presence he's not as bad as it's being presented.

- Cannot defend the rim
- Plodder, will help allow offense who cannot space the floor properly to get away with it
- Will be completely firebombed by bigs with superior athleticism/minimum low post skill set
- Poor defensive instincts
- Consistently out of position based on defensive sets
- Lousy help defender
- Atrocious footwork ( where all the fundamental problem start)
- Poor use of leverage concepts
- Poor use of length to control passing lanes
- Poor overall balance
- Shows no skill at reading offensive sets
- Poor recovery speed on defense
- Poor timing in general

You just said, why not pay Robin Lopez too, and if they can, the Knicks should draft Okafor.

Dude, Melo is a POWER FORWARD. He can't defend wings. His best offensive mismatches comes by terrorizing other power forwards. Monroe is not a true center. His deficiencies means to hide him, if you can, you must play him at POWER FORWARD.

Money for Melo plus money for Monroe ( max money) plus money for rim protection and defense at center at established league market values plus Calderon contract = NO MONEY LEFT.

You simply refuse to answer the question. With the legit tradeoffs that Monroe brings, esp on the defensive end, where is all this extra money going to come from to build the rest of the team?

You keep also avoiding the other issue brought up - HE'S AVAILABLE FOR A REASON. If he offered so many more answers than QUESTIONS, then the Pistons would have gladly given him his big max extension and did it the first chance they got.

And this final concept seems to truly elude you - Because a player could make the Knicks BETTER in some areas ( you seem to only care about scoring and raw rebounding) doesn't mean he's the RIGHT player for the Knicks in the future.

BETTER is always relative when you have the LEAST TALENTED 15 man roster in the ENTIRE LEAGUE.

The Knicks just went through hell OVERPAYING MULTIPLE POWER FORWARDS, shoving all their money in a frontline that had more questions than answers and they couldn't find help with such limited means to fix their backcourt issues.

So your solution is to AGAIN, KEEP OVERPAYING MULTIPLE POWER FORWARDS and clog the cap at the frontline, that has more questions than answers, and choking out resources to actually rearm and develop help in the backcourt.

Nixluva, repeat after me - Better player than this current roster hell does not mean it's the right player for the future.

Better player does not always equal right player.

First socks, then shoes

Better player does not always equal right player.

First socks, then shoes.

Great breakdown a little longwinded though for a Greg Synopsis

But this was a sophisticated way of saying

Greg Monroe doesn't pass the Eye Test[SABERMETRICIANS NOT ALLOWED]

fishmike wrote:A few things.
1) he didnt opt out. He didnt accept any offer in his RFA last year, so Det brought him back at the QO. Its also why he cant be traded and is an UFA at the end of the year. He's in his 5th year of his rookie deal.

2) For all the talks about his horrific defense and total inability to defend the rim the Pistons are better with him on BOTH ends of the floor, by alot. His defensive metrics are very good. So he may fail the eyeball test but reality is he's not that bad. Also look at this off/court on the court and notice he's split his time equally between 4/5. That may change with Josh gone. Coincidentally the Pistons are exactly the same on defense with Drummond off the floor or on it.

He's a nice player. Its highly probably whoever we sign via FA will be considered overpaid. Thats the FA lure. Money. Monroe is a nice player. His shortcomings are not the dealbreakers you would suggest. At least the stats say otherwise

His WS48 for his career is extremely underwhelming for a max type player and that does not really take his shoddy defense into account.