F500ONE wrote:The point of collecting talent doesn't automatically

Garnish a Bouquet of Roses, all teams do this

Minnesota, Utah, Detroit, Philly have identified talented players

But are they the right ones and do they fit

I could care less if we're using analytics or not

I think often times sabermetricians get in the way of logical decisions

I have to say that at this point in my life I am not going to be doing extensive research to understand all the advanced analytics some of you guys refer to, so my ignorance of what they can show might just come through.

How do all these analytics take into consideration the teammates and coach a player plays for and with? Can these two factors affect a guy's performance numbers for better or worse?

I'm old enough to remember the Debusschere and Monroe trades. The first trade not only brought over Debusschere's brains and toughness, but it cleared the way for two players- Reed and Frazier- to come into their own. The second gave the Knicks a star who was willing to play a diminished role (compared to what he did with Baltimore)on what was arguably the most intelligent team that ever played in the NBA- the 1973 World Champion Knicks. Could the analytics have predicted these things?

Certain players can thrive within a particular system or be the perfect compliment to other players. Others can wilt when playing in certain cities or under certain pressures. Some players have games that are evolving for the better each year (Lebron made great improvements to his game over the years), while others have games that are stagnant and show little or no growth.

How can the advanced analytics really tell us whether this or that player will improve or remain the same? How can they tell us if a particular player fits into a system or has a compatible game with the group of players on a team?

Injuries and age related decline are other factors that are more difficult to quantify or use as predictive information. You never know how players will age or recover from injuries. Can analytics do this?

It seems more and more evident to me that the Anthony signing by Jackson was a major mistake: His peak years are clearly behind him, he can no longer play defense at the position he has played for most of his career, and he does not seem to be the right fit for what Jackson/Fisher wants to do with the offense, even though he is one of the best mid-range shooters in the game, and the Triangle craves this ability. I don't even know how he hurt his knee, but now his jumping ability may decline even more, as will his ability to play defense.

Did the analytics suggest any of this?

Just wondering.

WaltLongmire wrote:

F500ONE wrote:The point of collecting talent doesn't automatically

Garnish a Bouquet of Roses, all teams do this

Minnesota, Utah, Detroit, Philly have identified talented players

But are they the right ones and do they fit

I could care less if we're using analytics or not

I think often times sabermetricians get in the way of logical decisions

Some truth here.

I have to say that at this point in my life I am not going to be doing extensive research to understand all the advanced analytics some of you guys refer to, so my ignorance of what they can show might just come through.

How do all these analytics take into consideration the teammates and coach a player plays for and with? Can these two factors affect a guy's performance numbers for better or worse?

I'm old enough to remember the Debusschere and Monroe trades. The first trade not only brought over Debusschere's brains and toughness, but it cleared the way for two players- Reed and Frazier- to come into their own. The second gave the Knicks a star who was willing to play a diminished role (compared to what he did with Baltimore)on what was arguably the most intelligent team that ever played in the NBA- the 1973 World Champion Knicks. Could the analytics have predicted these things?

Certain players can thrive within a particular system or be the perfect compliment to other players. Others can wilt when playing in certain cities or under certain pressures. Some players have games that are evolving for the better each year (Lebron made great improvements to his game over the years), while others have games that are stagnant and show little or no growth.

How can the advanced analytics really tell us whether this or that player will improve or remain the same? How can they tell us if a particular player fits into a system or has a compatible game with the group of players on a team?

Injuries and age related decline are other factors that are more difficult to quantify or use as predictive information. You never know how players will age or recover from injuries. Can analytics do this?

It seems more and more evident to me that the Anthony signing by Jackson was a major mistake: His peak years are clearly behind him, he can no longer play defense at the position he has played for most of his career, and he does not seem to be the right fit for what Jackson/Fisher wants to do with the offense, even though he is one of the best mid-range shooters in the game, and the Triangle craves this ability. I don't even know how he hurt his knee, but now his jumping ability may decline even more, as will his ability to play defense.

Did the analytics suggest any of this?

Just wondering.

Basic stats have always suggested Melo is inefficient. Advanced stats however show his actual worth. he has an on court value of roughly 15-17 mil, something you might pay the second best player on your team.

knickscity wrote:

nixluva wrote:This thread is the true test of the pessimistic nature of some on this forum. Here it is that guys were calling for the Knicks to make use of Analytics and some assuming the Knicks weren't doing so at all. Then proof is provided that the team does in fact have a strong presence of front office people who are heavily into metrics and such. Still you guys find a way to dismiss and denigrate the team for doing just what you asked that they should do. It's not just one guy but everyone in the organization that are doing this. It's totally hypocritical.

It's clear that the rest of the staff is heavily making use of Analytics and they are the ones bringing their scouting reports and info to Phil. Phil isn't scouting all these players in Europe and college himself. You guys are misrepresenting how Phil is likely to be doing things. He's not doing all of that by himself and is properly letting his staff do their jobs. He's in the executive role and will set the overarching Philosophy and direction of the franchise and make the final decisions but his scouting staff is doing all of the research work based on his directives for what the team needs. It's a team process and we'll see how they work together from here on.

We haven't seen the full results yet so it's impossible to fully judge anything. We still have a TON of moves to be made this year. It really could be a lot of change when you think of how many players will have to be replaced. There will need to be a lot of change to fulfill Phil's designs for the team. Complaining about how this roster is failing is understandable but to just rag on Phil's future moves before he's made them is just too much. Let the man at least finish executing his plan first.

A part of me really feels bad for you. Phil has zero experience in his role, everyone knew he wouldnt do well and he hasnt. there's nothing to suggest he will all of a sudden do well either.

Mainly because he is doing this HIS way. The league has advanced far beyond Phil.

Some of us aren't even going to give the man a chance to actually build his team but just judge him on this years transition team where we still had holdovers from the previous regime. He tried to put something together and it didn't work. That's not the end of the story. Heck we haven't even gotten thru the trade Deadline and people are giving up on the man already. Still got the draft to get thru and Free Agency. This is UNREAL.

OH AND GUESS WHAT? WE USE METRICS TOO!!!

knickscity wrote:

WaltLongmire wrote:

F500ONE wrote:The point of collecting talent doesn't automatically

Garnish a Bouquet of Roses, all teams do this

Minnesota, Utah, Detroit, Philly have identified talented players

But are they the right ones and do they fit

I could care less if we're using analytics or not

I think often times sabermetricians get in the way of logical decisions

Some truth here.

I have to say that at this point in my life I am not going to be doing extensive research to understand all the advanced analytics some of you guys refer to, so my ignorance of what they can show might just come through.

How do all these analytics take into consideration the teammates and coach a player plays for and with? Can these two factors affect a guy's performance numbers for better or worse?

I'm old enough to remember the Debusschere and Monroe trades. The first trade not only brought over Debusschere's brains and toughness, but it cleared the way for two players- Reed and Frazier- to come into their own. The second gave the Knicks a star who was willing to play a diminished role (compared to what he did with Baltimore)on what was arguably the most intelligent team that ever played in the NBA- the 1973 World Champion Knicks. Could the analytics have predicted these things?

Certain players can thrive within a particular system or be the perfect compliment to other players. Others can wilt when playing in certain cities or under certain pressures. Some players have games that are evolving for the better each year (Lebron made great improvements to his game over the years), while others have games that are stagnant and show little or no growth.

How can the advanced analytics really tell us whether this or that player will improve or remain the same? How can they tell us if a particular player fits into a system or has a compatible game with the group of players on a team?

Injuries and age related decline are other factors that are more difficult to quantify or use as predictive information. You never know how players will age or recover from injuries. Can analytics do this?

It seems more and more evident to me that the Anthony signing by Jackson was a major mistake: His peak years are clearly behind him, he can no longer play defense at the position he has played for most of his career, and he does not seem to be the right fit for what Jackson/Fisher wants to do with the offense, even though he is one of the best mid-range shooters in the game, and the Triangle craves this ability. I don't even know how he hurt his knee, but now his jumping ability may decline even more, as will his ability to play defense.

Did the analytics suggest any of this?

Just wondering.

Basic stats have always suggested Melo is inefficient. Advanced stats however show his actual worth. he has an on court value of roughly 15-17 mil, something you might pay the second best player on your team.

WaltLongmire wrote:

F500ONE wrote:The point of collecting talent doesn't automatically

Garnish a Bouquet of Roses, all teams do this

Minnesota, Utah, Detroit, Philly have identified talented players

But are they the right ones and do they fit

I could care less if we're using analytics or not

I think often times sabermetricians get in the way of logical decisions

Some truth here.

I have to say that at this point in my life I am not going to be doing extensive research to understand all the advanced analytics some of you guys refer to, so my ignorance of what they can show might just come through.

How do all these analytics take into consideration the teammates and coach a player plays for and with? Can these two factors affect a guy's performance numbers for better or worse?

I'm old enough to remember the Debusschere and Monroe trades. The first trade not only brought over Debusschere's brains and toughness, but it cleared the way for two players- Reed and Frazier- to come into their own. The second gave the Knicks a star who was willing to play a diminished role (compared to what he did with Baltimore)on what was arguably the most intelligent team that ever played in the NBA- the 1973 World Champion Knicks. Could the analytics have predicted these things?

Certain players can thrive within a particular system or be the perfect compliment to other players. Others can wilt when playing in certain cities or under certain pressures. Some players have games that are evolving for the better each year (Lebron made great improvements to his game over the years), while others have games that are stagnant and show little or no growth.

How can the advanced analytics really tell us whether this or that player will improve or remain the same? How can they tell us if a particular player fits into a system or has a compatible game with the group of players on a team?

Injuries and age related decline are other factors that are more difficult to quantify or use as predictive information. You never know how players will age or recover from injuries. Can analytics do this?

It seems more and more evident to me that the Anthony signing by Jackson was a major mistake: His peak years are clearly behind him, he can no longer play defense at the position he has played for most of his career, and he does not seem to be the right fit for what Jackson/Fisher wants to do with the offense, even though he is one of the best mid-range shooters in the game, and the Triangle craves this ability. I don't even know how he hurt his knee, but now his jumping ability may decline even more, as will his ability to play defense.

Did the analytics suggest any of this?

Just wondering.

I hope you read my depiction of Eddie Donovans trades last week you just mentioned. I discussed Bill Bradley and Cazzie being disappointments, and moving Bellamy and Kovives as also part of the mix. Debussure was at 24 actually the Pistons player/coach at the time. Reed was ROY and an all star at the 4 but his knee problems slowed him down and the 5 was more suitable.

If every team starts using "advanced Metrics" then doing something different can "DIFFERENTIATE" you!

Nobody has done the Triangle like Phil. Instead of fans seeing this season as a failure and wanting to make a change, maybe we should consider not if he fails, but what if he succeeds.

Pippen and Jordan had not won a thing until Phil came to town. Kobe was an insulate little shyt and I doubt anyone could have managed those two any better to win 5 rings!!!

Phil has a history of turning players in to all time greats BECAUSE they won. While I won't say this label will be bestowed on to Melo, maybe he can be "Pippen" and not be the Alpha?

Maybe, maybe not.

I'll take phil over Dolan pulling the strings via Layden, Walsh, and Grunwald!!!! Isiah I think had freedoms the others did not.

In the end it might be an awful thing Phil is trying to do, but at least we are doing something instead of following the crowd.

Bonn1997 wrote:

nixluva wrote:Every thread devolves into the same BS. The same guys talking the same doomsday crap, which I can somewhat understand because of the team losing, but we should be more mature than this. This team isn't doomed. We have a draft pick. We have cap space. We have expiring contracts. The trade Deadline is still ahead as is the Free Agent signing period. Until we get thru all of these events it's premature to predict failure.

OH AND GUESS WHAT? WE USE METRICS TOO!!!

It should go without saying that people really mean they want a GM who *intelligently* uses the metrics, even if people don't insert the word intelligently.
When you accidentally turn a .450 team into a .150 team, very few people will and no one should give you the benefit of the doubt.

Especially when you're working basically as an Apprentice

Making a Master Instructors wage in a field of no executive experience

OTOH

You don't need to consult the so called geeks making 6 figure salaries or more

To tell you Calderon has great individual advanced stats

I mean most coaching staffs have "coaching assistants" who compile stats and scouting reports

On players to the degree teams should know exactly what a player can and can't do

What they like to do and what they don't like to do

Did Phil forget his game planning against such players when he was as a coach

This should tell Phil quite frankly all he needs to know about most players in this league

You don't need number crunchers telling you Carmelo should only make so much money

And that Calderon makes very little difference in the W-L column careerwise

Because if you do then maybe, just maybe you're not cut out for this job

IMO these professions may be of assistance in helping identify unknown quantities

Going after guys like the Danny Greens, Draymond Greens, guys coming off rookie deals

Yes these players are very important too, but they have to be identified

Via scouting before the advanced numbers[TS% PERS, Win shares etc etc] can truly come into play

And when you're trying to figure out which one to swing for the fences on

But building with "core pieces" and getting "veteran hardworking 2-way players"

You don't need an analytic team for this, really you don't

Matter of fact the best thing Phil has going for him right now is his "scouting department"

Because The Flava Of Our Season Says Lotto

Oh wait...

Nalod wrote:

djsunyc wrote:

Nalod wrote:In the end it might be an awful thing Phil is trying to do, but at least we are doing something instead of following the crowd.

phil is just another starphuck. dolan said he spoke to phil for a few hours at a party and came away telling himself phil was the smartest basketball mind he's ever met. so throw 5 years $60 mil at him b/c phil has to be the guy.

what that means is again dolan got sweet talked again. another case of giving a guy not qualified for the position a boat load of money and full reign. at least isiah had *some* previous experience running the raptors. phil has never held an exec role before. combine that with his inability to actually travel and use "his own eyes" to do his evaluations and what you have is basically more of the same.

this year for the knicks has been nothing short of a failure on the court. the coach has not instilled anything so far and there really is no culture to talk of. and that was one of phil's big things. alot of season left but do you really think this year will produce anything positive for the players here? these players again are on the court without knowing their future and in an unstable situation. nothing's changed. just the names.

with all that said, his poor gm'ing will give you guys a top draft pick so if used correctly, can help turn the situation around. but phil's entire tenure is going to be a result of what he does from june to october.

IM sorry, are in the team meetings as well? Did Phil lobby for the job or was dolan after him? Is Phil intrigued by the opportunity or cash take?

I don't know. But you do?

What then might you suggest? Mills run the team with Dolan making the big decisions?
Its like a building that needs renovation. The more you demolish the more damage is exposed. Then you walk in and say "hey, this looks bad, its never gonna get improved".

DJ, your divorced knick fan. Like any divorce you justify your decision anyway you want. I'd think the Raptors current season is enough. Somewhere in Toronto the decision to provide money to sign Ujuri and the opportunity that he shook loose from Denver was the start of something special. that team looked bad at that time. Things have to play out in time.

Nothing in Toronto's past could have predicted the current teams success. Things changed from how decisions were made. Maybe it was the owners who prevented Colangelo from moving ahead. Things changed.

At MSG, there has been a change. For this team to be allowed to be this bad is evidence.

Great post Nalod. A lot more logic and insight than most can stomach.

The same guys (this is you Guns) who pine and pine for rebuilding are the same one complaining every day.

It will be a very interesting offseason.

Bonn1997 wrote:

fishmike wrote:Great thread... I think we should we should focus on being more like Morey who really uses metrics and advanced stats.

Oh wait...

You have a strange Morey obsession. True he uses the metrics and has a pretty good team but now every team except the Magic and Bobcats has joined the 21st century and has an analytics department. The field has moved to complex questions about *how* to best use the metrics. You seem stuck simply disparaging the metrics.