mreinman wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:Since his rookie year--hes has one losing season--last year

Before that he had 11 straight years of playing on winning teams and a regular season winning % of .600 To say that you cant win with melo makes 0 sense. Melo really is the only good player on this team when Amare is hurt. Its pretty simple EVERY other player on the Knicks scks--their terrible inconsistent. Are some of these new posters comparing Melo to Jordan? Then stop. Did Dolan make a bad trade getting Melo--YES--but we can make Melo part of the solution. By trading Melo like some purport--we will only acheive one thing--handing over a top 3 pick to Tonto next year. Pat Riley would never trade melo--thats not how he works.

Phil Jackson made a TERRIBLE TERRIBLE trade for Tyson/Calderon. He didnt take charge to say JR--hes done waived. He brought in these players. He signed J Smith for 3+mm traded for Acy. He accepted Prigs and Larkin ass our PG and put a LOT of stock in Calderon. SO FAR PJ has taken a LOT of money and has done ZERO--he DID not try to tank. I wonder how many college games hes watched--my guess is hes watched more reruns of Seinfeld in one week than CBB games this year. He's right patience is key now(of course this is a change from the beginning of the season) but I am NOT down for 5 years of rebuilding--I do NOT buy into that. Melo is on this team hes our 22-24 point SF/PF--that is a piece. Fck the triangle---basically your saying w the triangle we cant draft or trade for certain talents---well you cant do that.

We need a LOT and the LAST thing we need is to trade melo for .30 like we traded ZACH Randolph David Lee etc... the same thing a few posters post here is the same thing posted about those guys--cant win with them. Melo is a piece--work with it shut up and do what you can to keep him healthy for the next 4 years. If they had any trepidation--I think they had time to talk about that before laying a no trade clause and 125 on him.

Yeah bottom line is you can't trade Melo. He has never been the problem. His personal record proves that. You can say what you want about him in the playoffs, but the same can be said for a lot of guys, chris paul etc. As far as leading winning teams, he's never been the problem. We need to just get some players. And Melo has proven he doesn't even need all-stars as help, just good role players who know their roles and compliment his scoring. That's it. Might not be the formula to winning a championship, but with that approach plus some luck in the draft and free agency you never know what can happen. A lot of it comes down to luck anyways. Luck like the spurs had having Robinson go down and winning the pick to select Duncan. Maybe we are due for some luck. Probably not, but you never know, we deserve it.

You didn't even address any of the criticism here. You just came to say "Yeah, I agree" to a person who also ignores the criticism?

I agree with this

Bonn1997 wrote:

mreinman wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:Since his rookie year--hes has one losing season--last year

Before that he had 11 straight years of playing on winning teams and a regular season winning % of .600 To say that you cant win with melo makes 0 sense. Melo really is the only good player on this team when Amare is hurt. Its pretty simple EVERY other player on the Knicks scks--their terrible inconsistent. Are some of these new posters comparing Melo to Jordan? Then stop. Did Dolan make a bad trade getting Melo--YES--but we can make Melo part of the solution. By trading Melo like some purport--we will only acheive one thing--handing over a top 3 pick to Tonto next year. Pat Riley would never trade melo--thats not how he works.

Phil Jackson made a TERRIBLE TERRIBLE trade for Tyson/Calderon. He didnt take charge to say JR--hes done waived. He brought in these players. He signed J Smith for 3+mm traded for Acy. He accepted Prigs and Larkin ass our PG and put a LOT of stock in Calderon. SO FAR PJ has taken a LOT of money and has done ZERO--he DID not try to tank. I wonder how many college games hes watched--my guess is hes watched more reruns of Seinfeld in one week than CBB games this year. He's right patience is key now(of course this is a change from the beginning of the season) but I am NOT down for 5 years of rebuilding--I do NOT buy into that. Melo is on this team hes our 22-24 point SF/PF--that is a piece. Fck the triangle---basically your saying w the triangle we cant draft or trade for certain talents---well you cant do that.

We need a LOT and the LAST thing we need is to trade melo for .30 like we traded ZACH Randolph David Lee etc... the same thing a few posters post here is the same thing posted about those guys--cant win with them. Melo is a piece--work with it shut up and do what you can to keep him healthy for the next 4 years. If they had any trepidation--I think they had time to talk about that before laying a no trade clause and 125 on him.

Yeah bottom line is you can't trade Melo. He has never been the problem. His personal record proves that. You can say what you want about him in the playoffs, but the same can be said for a lot of guys, chris paul etc. As far as leading winning teams, he's never been the problem. We need to just get some players. And Melo has proven he doesn't even need all-stars as help, just good role players who know their roles and compliment his scoring. That's it. Might not be the formula to winning a championship, but with that approach plus some luck in the draft and free agency you never know what can happen. A lot of it comes down to luck anyways. Luck like the spurs had having Robinson go down and winning the pick to select Duncan. Maybe we are due for some luck. Probably not, but you never know, we deserve it.

You didn't even address any of the criticism here. You just came to say "Yeah, I agree" to a person who also ignores the criticism?

I agree with this

+1

+2 1/4
lol

mreinman wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:I went back the previous 8 years just for you Briggs. His teams have played .575 with him and .500 in the 76 games he's missed over those seasons. Yes, he does help his teams and thus deserves a spot on an NBA roster but he doesn't help nearly enough to take up almost 2 max contracts. That .075 improvement corresponds to about 6 wins a season. Earlier, you thought Dragic alone could add 11 wins in a third of a season! So you must think that 6 wins over an entire season is barely worth the MLE.
His value is greater than zero but we're getting only a couple of dimes of production on the dollar. A trade where we get 30 cents on the dollar is much better than keeping him for 15 cents on the dollar. Keep in mind that the best run teams will not merely be breaking even but will actually be the reverse: they'll be getting dollars of production on a few dimes. With Melo's salary taking up this much room, we're in too deep a hole, and it's only going to get worse as he progresses from his thirteenth through sixteenth seasons.

We do agree that the Tyson/Calderon trade was terrible though.

Bonn this post is somewhat absurd no? "His value is greater than zero" HMMM yes his value is greater than zero. Can you go back in your NBA search and tell me which other player in the NBA avg 25-7-3 45% on a team with a winning % close to .600 for 8 straight years in the west other than Tim Duncan? I'm not saying we CANNOT trade Melo--I never said that. I said the we JUST signed him to a 125mm$ contract a few months ago. What player has been traded after signing such a lucrative deal so quickly? Im just stating facts. People are saying you cant win with melo--but facts say thats way off. Facts say that when you sign a guy to a huge contract--you dont turn around and just trade him. His long and consistent big numbers on winning teams is somewhat unique in this league. I think it would be easier to go with melo and fit him in to a niche as a scoring forward as part of a team that trading him for less. I accept this season as terrible--all teams have them--we're just bad. UNLESS we can get a perfect type deal for Melo--its best to keep him for now. He's not the reason were 5-26 the other castoffs teammates are and poor coaching are the reasons.

He doesn't have big numbers. He has a high PPG total. Depending on the quality of your teammates and your own production, you can be on a lot of .600 or .300 teams. You're not making any effort to figure out what his contribution to his teams' performance is. You're just stating that his teams did well and he scored a lot of points (and was an average rebounder and passer). He has the largest NBA contract in the history of the game. So of course I can't provide examples of other teams signing and then quickly trading a player on such a contract. No team has ever even given such a contract.

being the highest paid usually goes to the last player who signed ... in a year or 2, there will be a new highest paid player

and, if the salary cap blows up and he is 20 percent of the cap then maybe it won't be so bad.

Bonn1997 wrote:

mreinman wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:I went back the previous 8 years just for you Briggs. His teams have played .575 with him and .500 in the 76 games he's missed over those seasons. Yes, he does help his teams and thus deserves a spot on an NBA roster but he doesn't help nearly enough to take up almost 2 max contracts. That .075 improvement corresponds to about 6 wins a season. Earlier, you thought Dragic alone could add 11 wins in a third of a season! So you must think that 6 wins over an entire season is barely worth the MLE.
His value is greater than zero but we're getting only a couple of dimes of production on the dollar. A trade where we get 30 cents on the dollar is much better than keeping him for 15 cents on the dollar. Keep in mind that the best run teams will not merely be breaking even but will actually be the reverse: they'll be getting dollars of production on a few dimes. With Melo's salary taking up this much room, we're in too deep a hole, and it's only going to get worse as he progresses from his thirteenth through sixteenth seasons.

We do agree that the Tyson/Calderon trade was terrible though.

Bonn this post is somewhat absurd no? "His value is greater than zero" HMMM yes his value is greater than zero. Can you go back in your NBA search and tell me which other player in the NBA avg 25-7-3 45% on a team with a winning % close to .600 for 8 straight years in the west other than Tim Duncan? I'm not saying we CANNOT trade Melo--I never said that. I said the we JUST signed him to a 125mm$ contract a few months ago. What player has been traded after signing such a lucrative deal so quickly? Im just stating facts. People are saying you cant win with melo--but facts say thats way off. Facts say that when you sign a guy to a huge contract--you dont turn around and just trade him. His long and consistent big numbers on winning teams is somewhat unique in this league. I think it would be easier to go with melo and fit him in to a niche as a scoring forward as part of a team that trading him for less. I accept this season as terrible--all teams have them--we're just bad. UNLESS we can get a perfect type deal for Melo--its best to keep him for now. He's not the reason were 5-26 the other castoffs teammates are and poor coaching are the reasons.

He doesn't have big numbers. He has a high PPG total. Depending on the quality of your teammates and your own production, you can be on a lot of .600 or .300 teams. You're not making any effort to figure out what his contribution to his teams' performance is. You're just stating that his teams did well and he scored a lot of points (and was an average rebounder and passer). He has the largest NBA contract in the history of the game. So of course I can't provide examples of other teams signing and then quickly trading a player on such a contract. No team has ever even given such a contract.

being the highest paid usually goes to the last player who signed ... in a year or 2, there will be a new highest paid player

and, if the salary cap blows up and he is 20 percent of the cap then maybe it won't be so bad.

Well, yeah. I never said he would permanently be the highest paid player in the game. A million years from now, Melo's salary won't even look like minimum wage.

the new CBA must have played a big part in the "decision"

Bonn1997 wrote:

TripleThreat wrote:

BRIGGS wrote: ....To say that you cant win with melo makes 0 sense.....

... Melo is a piece--work with it shut up and do what you can to keep him healthy for the next 4 years. ....

I think a distinction needs to be made.

IMHO, lots of people are saying Melo CANNOT HELP THIS CURRENT KNICKS TEAM

What they are not saying is that Melo CAN'T HELP ANY TEAM AT ALL. Which is what you seem to be implying.

There are lots of issues surrounding Melo - his cap cost, his decline phase, his lack of defense, his lack of leadership, his poor passing, his inability/lack of desire to play well off the ball, the timetable of a rebuild with limited assets against his contract clock, his questionable fit into the Triangle Offense.

When presented with these issues Briggs, you just ignore them. You ignore just about anything you can't answer, defend or clearly is pointed out to you that shows you that your previous assertions are either questionable and/or suspect.

No offense, but of course it makes zero sense to you. When you just outright ignore the stuff you don't want to hear/you don't like to hear/is contrary to what you are pushing even when most of the data or league history or league trends say you are wrong.

If it's your opinion that the current Knicks can build and contend around Melo, fine, that's your opinion.
If some of us don't feel the same way, that's fine too.

The problem here is don't tell the rest of us ( i.e. "shut up") we are wrong because we are bringing up legitimate team building points ( cap concerns, declining years of aging players, skill sets, time tables, team assets, etc) that you simply refuse to talk about or address because it doesn't fit your personal narrative of what you think the Knicks are or should be.

Briggs, you are clearly a passionate fan who wants this team to win. But you are also someone IMHO who only hears what he wants to hear.

+1. You're right Briggs is a good, passionate fan but I agree that he ignores responses that don't agree with him. I didn't even notice the part where he told those who disagree to shut up. That's unlike Briggs and really not what this forum is about.

It's truly exasperating seeing the continual posts

From whomever telling posters to "shut up" or "WTF" or "have no clue" or "you're an a-hole"

Because the counter data is so much more powerful than the

"A Dibiddy Dibiddy Dibiddy Dibiddy That's All Folks"

Commentary from them

Briggs completely sold himself out last night when he said this

"WHAT IS A FAN SUPPOSED TO DO WHEN THE TEAM

HE ROOTS FOR HAS GIVEN A PLAYER $125mil DOLLARS WHO ISN'T GOING ANYWHERE"

Talk about falling on your own sword

As long as your intelligence exist never trade it in for ignorance

mreinman wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:I suggest you go here
http://m.bkref.com/m?p=XXplayersXXaXXanthoca01.html&t=18

Denver was "fortunate" to have Melo in his prime years where he never made more than $15mil per season.

This is why you build through the draft.
This is why we should not have resigned an aging overly expensive Carmelo Anthony

how can you compare those years to now? Diff time, diff cap ...

Really?

The cap used to be more player friendly. You used to be able to sign players for 7yrs for well over $1OOmil

mreinman wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:

mreinman wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:I suggest you go here
http://m.bkref.com/m?p=XXplayersXXaXXanthoca01.html&t=18

Denver was "fortunate" to have Melo in his prime years where he never made more than $15mil per season.

This is why you build through the draft.
This is why we should not have resigned an aging overly expensive Carmelo Anthony

how can you compare those years to now? Diff time, diff cap ...

Really?

The cap used to be more player friendly. You used to be able to sign players for 7yrs for well over $1OOmil

see modification above

Gotcha

djsunyc wrote:unfortunately for you guys, Phil coming to NY was not about fixing your team. it was about his legacy, the money and the ability to hook up his guys financially. and he can get away with all that b/c Dolan is a child/idiot. all Phil wants to do is create a legacy for his beloved triangle when the entire NBA has already made the decision that its a sh t system in the league. the only hope for you guys is that phil is so bad at his job that you fall ass backwards into a good player in the draft. the fisher hire was comical...as was kerr. gsw got crazy lucky but at least Kerr had aspirations and has put in time behind the scenes in an exec role. fisher was basically ready to play again until Phil showed up at the door with bags of Dolan cash.

every single players value has been lowered. Jose started for a really good mavs squad last year and now he has basically been reduced to 3rd stringer quality. who in their right mind would come to a place where their #'s will take a major hit? and memo is not recruiting people here.

Sorry but this post is so wrong. If you were a real Knick fan and rooted for this team in 1969 you would realize that Phil is here to save the Knicks. Phil feels a connection to Red and the franchise and has come back to fix it. Sure the money is nice compensation but its NOT the main reason. Another crap post from a craptor fan

Bonn1997 wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:I went back the previous 8 years just for you Briggs. His teams have played .575 with him and .500 in the 76 games he's missed over those seasons. Yes, he does help his teams and thus deserves a spot on an NBA roster but he doesn't help nearly enough to take up almost 2 max contracts. That .075 improvement corresponds to about 6 wins a season. Earlier, you thought Dragic alone could add 11 wins in a third of a season! So you must think that 6 wins over an entire season is barely worth the MLE.
His value is greater than zero but we're getting only a couple of dimes of production on the dollar. A trade where we get 30 cents on the dollar is much better than keeping him for 15 cents on the dollar. Keep in mind that the best run teams will not merely be breaking even but will actually be the reverse: they'll be getting dollars of production on a few dimes. With Melo's salary taking up this much room, we're in too deep a hole, and it's only going to get worse as he progresses from his thirteenth through sixteenth seasons.

We do agree that the Tyson/Calderon trade was terrible though.

Bonn this post is somewhat absurd no? "His value is greater than zero" HMMM yes his value is greater than zero. Can you go back in your NBA search and tell me which other player in the NBA avg 25-7-3 45% on a team with a winning % close to .600 for 8 straight years in the west other than Tim Duncan? I'm not saying we CANNOT trade Melo--I never said that. I said the we JUST signed him to a 125mm$ contract a few months ago. What player has been traded after signing such a lucrative deal so quickly? Im just stating facts. People are saying you cant win with melo--but facts say thats way off. Facts say that when you sign a guy to a huge contract--you dont turn around and just trade him. His long and consistent big numbers on winning teams is somewhat unique in this league. I think it would be easier to go with melo and fit him in to a niche as a scoring forward as part of a team that trading him for less. I accept this season as terrible--all teams have them--we're just bad. UNLESS we can get a perfect type deal for Melo--its best to keep him for now. He's not the reason were 5-26 the other castoffs teammates are and poor coaching are the reasons.

He doesn't have big numbers. He has a high PPG total. Depending on the quality of your teammates and your own production, you can be on a lot of .600 or .300 teams. You're not making any effort to figure out what his contribution to his teams' performance is. You're just stating that his teams did fairly well and he scored a lot of points (and was an average rebounder and passer). Regarding your other comment, he has the largest NBA contract in the history of the game. So of course I can't provide examples of other teams signing and then quickly trading a player on such a contract. No team has ever even given such a contract.

He doesn't have big numbers?
Than what is 10 straight years of nearly 600ball @25 ppg7reb 3 as 45%=? What other numbers do u have? I didn't give melo 125 mm but as a fan I understand that's the cards in front of me and I will work with them Instead of bitching how bad melo is I'm and I hope the team is focused on what we can do to improve. That's the key now what we can do to improve. I think we have just touched on a few ways to improve but there are many we are at an evaluation stage right now

Vmart wrote:It's a tank year. There is talent on the team, enough to make the playoffs as a 8th seed or miss it with 30 wins none of that really does good for the team. Take the losing with a grain of salt and move on. To place blame on anyone when the plan is being executed to near perfection is crazy. We shouldn't be looking to blame the players or coaches they are doing the necessary something that should have been done many years ago.

Vm art. While this was not "the original plan" it is now and we should be thankful and embrace it. This time do land stupidity worked out well for the fans