Bonn1997 wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

TripleThreat wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:
The Knicks can take a 3 tier approach to rebuilding/retooling.
...if its hits right--Id say 2.

^

Again, some fans will take the most unlikely scenario, where everything lines up and everything goes in an ideal sense. Big men ( not saying the Knicks will get any of the players that Briggs mention, but acknowledging that this draft class has a lot of pivot prospects) historically have taken much longer, than other skill positions in the NBA, to develop.

Briggs expect the Knicks to win the draft lottery and get rookie producing IMMEDIATELY at an All Star level and at a historic pace.

Is it possible? Well technically, it's in theory, possible for me to get double teamed tomorrow night by a pair of SI Swimsuit models. But is it likely? No, it's not likely.

No one knows for sure where the Knicks will end up in the draft conversation, all anyone can do is hope for the best and hope the Knicks select well and the best player available. ( That is realistic)

Briggs keeps talking about trading back into the first round to get another first round pick. And yet again, I challenge him, with WHAT ASSETS? How do you get back into the first round and get another pick without 1) Trading away future picks and 2) Taking on bad contracts ? Questions he refuses to answer. The Knicks are virtually barren of assets.

Briggs will also contend that the Knicks will get this guy or that guy in free agency, when the reality is the advantage in resigning belongs to the incumbent team, and that most young free agents with upside are usually restricted. Will the Knicks get a Tier 1 free agent? It's possible. But is it likely? Probably not. Even if the player moves on, there are 30 other teams out there.

Briggs also keeps pushing this two year time table. Again, this would require the 2015 pick to IMMEDIATELY play at an All Star and historic level, and since the Knicks have no 2016 picks, what are they going to do? There are only so many free agents and so many dollars to spend.

Stephen Curry is playing at an MVP level. He took time to develop.

Jimmy Butler, one of the apples of Brigg's eyes, took time to develop.

Reggie Jackson. Even Greg Monroe.

The Spurs. OKC. Warriors. Clippers. Bulls. Cavs. It took years for each of these teams to get to where they are now. Even the Cavs, it took years of stockpiling young assets to get to this place to entice LBJ. They drafted players, they tried to develop players, they tried to make smart trades, but they made mistakes along the way. But none of them made this major 2 year turnaround ( esp when year 2 would give them zero picks) on the fly from arguably the least talented roster in the NBA to a playoff contender.

To build something that stands the test of time, it takes time to establish that. Time and time again, NBA history has shown that massive change simply doesn't operate at the same timetable as a MLB and NFL team can.

The Knicks are in their current hell because Dolan and Zeke made moves to appease fans like you. Unrealistic fans who demand unrealistic results in unrealistic timetables. I do like your strategy though of simply ignoring the logical counterpoints you don't like. When you have no answer how the Knicks are going to rebuild when Year 2 of your 2 year plan, they have no draft picks, you'll just turtle up.

One thing about Briggs is that he doesn't come to the board to argue about nonsense. He only cares about possibilities and angles the Knicks could try and take to improve the team. He is one of the most die hard Knick fans I have seen on any message board. There is no reason to try and attack him.

Briggs has only been bringing up possibilities for the Knicks to improve. He isn't going to hold Phil accountable if he doesn't complete every single one of his fantasy possibilities(except passing on an OK4 or trading the pickat the draft). He will just adapt to how it plays out and continue to look for ways to improve the team.

You wrote all this while ignoring

How long would it take for us to compete at a higher level. Well we cant make mistakes we have to a lot of things go our way and that is unknown right now. 6 years--if its hits right--Id say 2.

And even if the draft pick took 3yrs to develop into an allstar. If in 2 yrs the Knicks have a good young foundation even if they aren't contender level yet, most Knick fans will take that and continue to look for ways for the Knicks to improve from there. There will be no outrage over not being a contender in 2yrs if we have a young player(top 5 pick) to look forward to over the next 10yrs.

Whats not productive is the whole as long as Carmelo is here we aren't going to do anything talk and all our moves are going to fail just because Carmelo Anthony is on the roster.

Triplethreat clearly put a lot of thought into that reply and I all I see is pretty mild criticism of Briggs' ideas. There are enough posts with name-calling and other crap that should be more alarming than anything he just wrote.

The general principal of what he wrote I agree with in terms of building it over multiple yrs time and the time it will take to develop. What I don't like was that he quoted only part of what Briggs actually said. Then went on to challenge Briggs possibilities and fandom when Briggs clearly stated "we have to have a lot of things go our way and that is unknown right now". "If it hits right then 2yrs".

"If it hits right" includes landing OK4 and him being a stud early. Signing one stud and mutiple other pieces over a 2 yr span. None of these things in Briggs post were said to be expected but only possibilities. Clearly he is stating best possible case scenario but I don't see Briggs claiming he expects these things to all happen like TT was trying to insinuate.

I think his point is that Briggs doesn't realize *how* unlikely it is for that path to work out, though. You start throwing in several things that each have low but reasonable probabilities and soon you're at a path that has a 1 in a thousand chance of working.

Well I don't say anything is likely--I just give facts and possibilities based on true %. I think you can see I said we have a 20-25% chance of landing pick 1---that is correct if we are the worst or second to worst team.

I said its likely that we'd have a top 3 pick --that we'd have a 70% chance--at current position--that is correct.
I said that we'd have 30-45mm depending on what we do with current players. I said we have a great possibility of landing atleast 1 great player--we may have to over pay--probability--60-70%
I said we should focus on improving from within looking to be opportunistic look for smaller trades and stay away from big ones because were not good at it.
I said if things go our way--fall in place--I think we can make the playoffs next year and if 2016 yields a superstar to add to our equation in FA--then two years would not be out of the question.

I havent seen many players as nimble skilled or quick as OK4 in recent years for their size with the exception of Cousins(but Ok4 is more advanced). Blake Griffin was a 23-10 player right away it took Anthony Davis two years. I view Ok4 as better than most NBA 4's today as in right now I think he could remove his Duke Uniform and put on an NBA one and it will be difficult for NBA players to contend with a nimble skilled 6-11 270 pound PF in the low box. He may be better in the pros in terms of scoring. So if we are lucky and we hit it right and get this guy I believe we have a 20+ 8-10 rebound post 4 "right away" that's my humble opinion. I also think there are a varying degree of really good NBA players underneath that we can potentially add if we are willing to swap out our 2017 pick maybe Tim Hardaway for lower round 1's and the 3m in cash we have to buy 2nd rounders if it makes sense

We could have as much as 45mm in cap space and at-least 30mm. If we are aggressive say to a Goran Dragic and offer him a very lucrative deal--one that would allocate Phoenix to lay nearly 40mm on the PG position alone--I think we have a great chance to grab him. I think Dragic is a stabilizer here. Hes a 20 point PG who shoots 50%. If we had Dragic just on current team--we might be 15-10 instead of 5-25. Dragic ALONE will make this team (IF put back together reasonably) WITH Carmelo a playoff team next year in the east. We need a PREMIUM PG. Triangle or not--the evidence that a high level PG=success is to high to ignore. I think Phil can do the math the number is over 90% of good teams have one. We do not--we have WAY too much money in an avg PG at best. He's a stretch candidate if I ever saw one. I accept that trade as over winners losers who cares--just get rid of that fcking salary.

What I'm saying here is I believe that our current position is not as dire as TT points out. Notice my post history--Ive been awful negative at times when its warranted. When have we had 1 year and I mean 1 year with a potential top 3 pick and possibility 45mm in cash With a Carmelo already on the roster? And to those who hate Carmelo--ok fine. But Carmelo with Ok4 and Dragic should be a much improved Carmelo when increased talent moves into the pivot and to the PG.

Bonn1997 wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

TripleThreat wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:
The Knicks can take a 3 tier approach to rebuilding/retooling.
...if its hits right--Id say 2.

^

Again, some fans will take the most unlikely scenario, where everything lines up and everything goes in an ideal sense. Big men ( not saying the Knicks will get any of the players that Briggs mention, but acknowledging that this draft class has a lot of pivot prospects) historically have taken much longer, than other skill positions in the NBA, to develop.

Briggs expect the Knicks to win the draft lottery and get rookie producing IMMEDIATELY at an All Star level and at a historic pace.

Is it possible? Well technically, it's in theory, possible for me to get double teamed tomorrow night by a pair of SI Swimsuit models. But is it likely? No, it's not likely.

No one knows for sure where the Knicks will end up in the draft conversation, all anyone can do is hope for the best and hope the Knicks select well and the best player available. ( That is realistic)

Briggs keeps talking about trading back into the first round to get another first round pick. And yet again, I challenge him, with WHAT ASSETS? How do you get back into the first round and get another pick without 1) Trading away future picks and 2) Taking on bad contracts ? Questions he refuses to answer. The Knicks are virtually barren of assets.

Briggs will also contend that the Knicks will get this guy or that guy in free agency, when the reality is the advantage in resigning belongs to the incumbent team, and that most young free agents with upside are usually restricted. Will the Knicks get a Tier 1 free agent? It's possible. But is it likely? Probably not. Even if the player moves on, there are 30 other teams out there.

Briggs also keeps pushing this two year time table. Again, this would require the 2015 pick to IMMEDIATELY play at an All Star and historic level, and since the Knicks have no 2016 picks, what are they going to do? There are only so many free agents and so many dollars to spend.

Stephen Curry is playing at an MVP level. He took time to develop.

Jimmy Butler, one of the apples of Brigg's eyes, took time to develop.

Reggie Jackson. Even Greg Monroe.

The Spurs. OKC. Warriors. Clippers. Bulls. Cavs. It took years for each of these teams to get to where they are now. Even the Cavs, it took years of stockpiling young assets to get to this place to entice LBJ. They drafted players, they tried to develop players, they tried to make smart trades, but they made mistakes along the way. But none of them made this major 2 year turnaround ( esp when year 2 would give them zero picks) on the fly from arguably the least talented roster in the NBA to a playoff contender.

To build something that stands the test of time, it takes time to establish that. Time and time again, NBA history has shown that massive change simply doesn't operate at the same timetable as a MLB and NFL team can.

The Knicks are in their current hell because Dolan and Zeke made moves to appease fans like you. Unrealistic fans who demand unrealistic results in unrealistic timetables. I do like your strategy though of simply ignoring the logical counterpoints you don't like. When you have no answer how the Knicks are going to rebuild when Year 2 of your 2 year plan, they have no draft picks, you'll just turtle up.

One thing about Briggs is that he doesn't come to the board to argue about nonsense. He only cares about possibilities and angles the Knicks could try and take to improve the team. He is one of the most die hard Knick fans I have seen on any message board. There is no reason to try and attack him.

Briggs has only been bringing up possibilities for the Knicks to improve. He isn't going to hold Phil accountable if he doesn't complete every single one of his fantasy possibilities(except passing on an OK4 or trading the pickat the draft). He will just adapt to how it plays out and continue to look for ways to improve the team.

You wrote all this while ignoring

How long would it take for us to compete at a higher level. Well we cant make mistakes we have to a lot of things go our way and that is unknown right now. 6 years--if its hits right--Id say 2.

And even if the draft pick took 3yrs to develop into an allstar. If in 2 yrs the Knicks have a good young foundation even if they aren't contender level yet, most Knick fans will take that and continue to look for ways for the Knicks to improve from there. There will be no outrage over not being a contender in 2yrs if we have a young player(top 5 pick) to look forward to over the next 10yrs.

Whats not productive is the whole as long as Carmelo is here we aren't going to do anything talk and all our moves are going to fail just because Carmelo Anthony is on the roster.

Triplethreat clearly put a lot of thought into that reply and I all I see is pretty mild criticism of Briggs' ideas. There are enough posts with name-calling and other crap that should be more alarming than anything he just wrote.

The general principal of what he wrote I agree with in terms of building it over multiple yrs time and the time it will take to develop. What I don't like was that he quoted only part of what Briggs actually said. Then went on to challenge Briggs possibilities and fandom when Briggs clearly stated "we have to have a lot of things go our way and that is unknown right now". "If it hits right then 2yrs".

"If it hits right" includes landing OK4 and him being a stud early. Signing one stud and mutiple other pieces over a 2 yr span. None of these things in Briggs post were said to be expected but only possibilities. Clearly he is stating best possible case scenario but I don't see Briggs claiming he expects these things to all happen like TT was trying to insinuate.

I think his point is that Briggs doesn't realize *how* unlikely it is for that path to work out, though. You start throwing in several things that each have low but reasonable probabilities and soon you're at a path that has a 1 in a thousand chance of working.

Weve both been around Briggs long enough to know that he is going to come up with 1 million possibilities by the time the draft rolls around. Most likely keeping himself entertained through a lousy season. To believe that nothing is going to work out and we have low possibilities of doing anything. There is no fun in that discussion.

newyorknewyork wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

TripleThreat wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:
The Knicks can take a 3 tier approach to rebuilding/retooling.
...if its hits right--Id say 2.

^

Again, some fans will take the most unlikely scenario, where everything lines up and everything goes in an ideal sense. Big men ( not saying the Knicks will get any of the players that Briggs mention, but acknowledging that this draft class has a lot of pivot prospects) historically have taken much longer, than other skill positions in the NBA, to develop.

Briggs expect the Knicks to win the draft lottery and get rookie producing IMMEDIATELY at an All Star level and at a historic pace.

Is it possible? Well technically, it's in theory, possible for me to get double teamed tomorrow night by a pair of SI Swimsuit models. But is it likely? No, it's not likely.

No one knows for sure where the Knicks will end up in the draft conversation, all anyone can do is hope for the best and hope the Knicks select well and the best player available. ( That is realistic)

Briggs keeps talking about trading back into the first round to get another first round pick. And yet again, I challenge him, with WHAT ASSETS? How do you get back into the first round and get another pick without 1) Trading away future picks and 2) Taking on bad contracts ? Questions he refuses to answer. The Knicks are virtually barren of assets.

Briggs will also contend that the Knicks will get this guy or that guy in free agency, when the reality is the advantage in resigning belongs to the incumbent team, and that most young free agents with upside are usually restricted. Will the Knicks get a Tier 1 free agent? It's possible. But is it likely? Probably not. Even if the player moves on, there are 30 other teams out there.

Briggs also keeps pushing this two year time table. Again, this would require the 2015 pick to IMMEDIATELY play at an All Star and historic level, and since the Knicks have no 2016 picks, what are they going to do? There are only so many free agents and so many dollars to spend.

Stephen Curry is playing at an MVP level. He took time to develop.

Jimmy Butler, one of the apples of Brigg's eyes, took time to develop.

Reggie Jackson. Even Greg Monroe.

The Spurs. OKC. Warriors. Clippers. Bulls. Cavs. It took years for each of these teams to get to where they are now. Even the Cavs, it took years of stockpiling young assets to get to this place to entice LBJ. They drafted players, they tried to develop players, they tried to make smart trades, but they made mistakes along the way. But none of them made this major 2 year turnaround ( esp when year 2 would give them zero picks) on the fly from arguably the least talented roster in the NBA to a playoff contender.

To build something that stands the test of time, it takes time to establish that. Time and time again, NBA history has shown that massive change simply doesn't operate at the same timetable as a MLB and NFL team can.

The Knicks are in their current hell because Dolan and Zeke made moves to appease fans like you. Unrealistic fans who demand unrealistic results in unrealistic timetables. I do like your strategy though of simply ignoring the logical counterpoints you don't like. When you have no answer how the Knicks are going to rebuild when Year 2 of your 2 year plan, they have no draft picks, you'll just turtle up.

One thing about Briggs is that he doesn't come to the board to argue about nonsense. He only cares about possibilities and angles the Knicks could try and take to improve the team. He is one of the most die hard Knick fans I have seen on any message board. There is no reason to try and attack him.

Briggs has only been bringing up possibilities for the Knicks to improve. He isn't going to hold Phil accountable if he doesn't complete every single one of his fantasy possibilities(except passing on an OK4 or trading the pickat the draft). He will just adapt to how it plays out and continue to look for ways to improve the team.

You wrote all this while ignoring

How long would it take for us to compete at a higher level. Well we cant make mistakes we have to a lot of things go our way and that is unknown right now. 6 years--if its hits right--Id say 2.

And even if the draft pick took 3yrs to develop into an allstar. If in 2 yrs the Knicks have a good young foundation even if they aren't contender level yet, most Knick fans will take that and continue to look for ways for the Knicks to improve from there. There will be no outrage over not being a contender in 2yrs if we have a young player(top 5 pick) to look forward to over the next 10yrs.

Whats not productive is the whole as long as Carmelo is here we aren't going to do anything talk and all our moves are going to fail just because Carmelo Anthony is on the roster.

Triplethreat clearly put a lot of thought into that reply and I all I see is pretty mild criticism of Briggs' ideas. There are enough posts with name-calling and other crap that should be more alarming than anything he just wrote.

The general principal of what he wrote I agree with in terms of building it over multiple yrs time and the time it will take to develop. What I don't like was that he quoted only part of what Briggs actually said. Then went on to challenge Briggs possibilities and fandom when Briggs clearly stated "we have to have a lot of things go our way and that is unknown right now". "If it hits right then 2yrs".

"If it hits right" includes landing OK4 and him being a stud early. Signing one stud and mutiple other pieces over a 2 yr span. None of these things in Briggs post were said to be expected but only possibilities. Clearly he is stating best possible case scenario but I don't see Briggs claiming he expects these things to all happen like TT was trying to insinuate.

I think his point is that Briggs doesn't realize *how* unlikely it is for that path to work out, though. You start throwing in several things that each have low but reasonable probabilities and soon you're at a path that has a 1 in a thousand chance of working.

Weve both been around Briggs long enough to know that he is going to come up with 1 million possibilities by the time the draft rolls around. Most likely keeping himself entertained through a lousy season. To believe that nothing is going to work out and we have low possibilities of doing anything. There is no fun in that discussion.

BRIGGS wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

TripleThreat wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:
The Knicks can take a 3 tier approach to rebuilding/retooling.
...if its hits right--Id say 2.

^

Again, some fans will take the most unlikely scenario, where everything lines up and everything goes in an ideal sense. Big men ( not saying the Knicks will get any of the players that Briggs mention, but acknowledging that this draft class has a lot of pivot prospects) historically have taken much longer, than other skill positions in the NBA, to develop.

Briggs expect the Knicks to win the draft lottery and get rookie producing IMMEDIATELY at an All Star level and at a historic pace.

Is it possible? Well technically, it's in theory, possible for me to get double teamed tomorrow night by a pair of SI Swimsuit models. But is it likely? No, it's not likely.

No one knows for sure where the Knicks will end up in the draft conversation, all anyone can do is hope for the best and hope the Knicks select well and the best player available. ( That is realistic)

Briggs keeps talking about trading back into the first round to get another first round pick. And yet again, I challenge him, with WHAT ASSETS? How do you get back into the first round and get another pick without 1) Trading away future picks and 2) Taking on bad contracts ? Questions he refuses to answer. The Knicks are virtually barren of assets.

Briggs will also contend that the Knicks will get this guy or that guy in free agency, when the reality is the advantage in resigning belongs to the incumbent team, and that most young free agents with upside are usually restricted. Will the Knicks get a Tier 1 free agent? It's possible. But is it likely? Probably not. Even if the player moves on, there are 30 other teams out there.

Briggs also keeps pushing this two year time table. Again, this would require the 2015 pick to IMMEDIATELY play at an All Star and historic level, and since the Knicks have no 2016 picks, what are they going to do? There are only so many free agents and so many dollars to spend.

Stephen Curry is playing at an MVP level. He took time to develop.

Jimmy Butler, one of the apples of Brigg's eyes, took time to develop.

Reggie Jackson. Even Greg Monroe.

The Spurs. OKC. Warriors. Clippers. Bulls. Cavs. It took years for each of these teams to get to where they are now. Even the Cavs, it took years of stockpiling young assets to get to this place to entice LBJ. They drafted players, they tried to develop players, they tried to make smart trades, but they made mistakes along the way. But none of them made this major 2 year turnaround ( esp when year 2 would give them zero picks) on the fly from arguably the least talented roster in the NBA to a playoff contender.

To build something that stands the test of time, it takes time to establish that. Time and time again, NBA history has shown that massive change simply doesn't operate at the same timetable as a MLB and NFL team can.

The Knicks are in their current hell because Dolan and Zeke made moves to appease fans like you. Unrealistic fans who demand unrealistic results in unrealistic timetables. I do like your strategy though of simply ignoring the logical counterpoints you don't like. When you have no answer how the Knicks are going to rebuild when Year 2 of your 2 year plan, they have no draft picks, you'll just turtle up.

One thing about Briggs is that he doesn't come to the board to argue about nonsense. He only cares about possibilities and angles the Knicks could try and take to improve the team. He is one of the most die hard Knick fans I have seen on any message board. There is no reason to try and attack him.

Briggs has only been bringing up possibilities for the Knicks to improve. He isn't going to hold Phil accountable if he doesn't complete every single one of his fantasy possibilities(except passing on an OK4 or trading the pickat the draft). He will just adapt to how it plays out and continue to look for ways to improve the team.

You wrote all this while ignoring

How long would it take for us to compete at a higher level. Well we cant make mistakes we have to a lot of things go our way and that is unknown right now. 6 years--if its hits right--Id say 2.

And even if the draft pick took 3yrs to develop into an allstar. If in 2 yrs the Knicks have a good young foundation even if they aren't contender level yet, most Knick fans will take that and continue to look for ways for the Knicks to improve from there. There will be no outrage over not being a contender in 2yrs if we have a young player(top 5 pick) to look forward to over the next 10yrs.

Whats not productive is the whole as long as Carmelo is here we aren't going to do anything talk and all our moves are going to fail just because Carmelo Anthony is on the roster.

Triplethreat clearly put a lot of thought into that reply and I all I see is pretty mild criticism of Briggs' ideas. There are enough posts with name-calling and other crap that should be more alarming than anything he just wrote.

The general principal of what he wrote I agree with in terms of building it over multiple yrs time and the time it will take to develop. What I don't like was that he quoted only part of what Briggs actually said. Then went on to challenge Briggs possibilities and fandom when Briggs clearly stated "we have to have a lot of things go our way and that is unknown right now". "If it hits right then 2yrs".

"If it hits right" includes landing OK4 and him being a stud early. Signing one stud and mutiple other pieces over a 2 yr span. None of these things in Briggs post were said to be expected but only possibilities. Clearly he is stating best possible case scenario but I don't see Briggs claiming he expects these things to all happen like TT was trying to insinuate.

I think his point is that Briggs doesn't realize *how* unlikely it is for that path to work out, though. You start throwing in several things that each have low but reasonable probabilities and soon you're at a path that has a 1 in a thousand chance of working.

Well I don't say anything is likely--I just give facts and possibilities based on true %. I think you can see I said we have a 20-25% chance of landing pick 1---that is correct if we are the worst or second to worst team.

I said its likely that we'd have a top 3 pick --that we'd have a 70% chance--at current position--that is correct.
I said that we'd have 30-45mm depending on what we do with current players. I said we have a great possibility of landing atleast 1 great player--we may have to over pay--probability--60-70%
I said we should focus on improving from within looking to be opportunistic look for smaller trades and stay away from big ones because were not good at it.
I said if things go our way--fall in place--I think we can make the playoffs next year and if 2016 yields a superstar to add to our equation in FA--then two years would not be out of the question.

I havent seen many players as nimble skilled or quick as OK4 in recent years for their size with the exception of Cousins(but Ok4 is more advanced). Blake Griffin was a 23-10 player right away it took Anthony Davis two years. I view Ok4 as better than most NBA 4's today as in right now I think he could remove his Duke Uniform and put on an NBA one and it will be difficult for NBA players to contend with a nimble skilled 6-11 270 pound PF in the low box. He may be better in the pros in terms of scoring. So if we are lucky and we hit it right and get this guy I believe we have a 20+ 8-10 rebound post 4 "right away" that's my humble opinion. I also think there are a varying degree of really good NBA players underneath that we can potentially add if we are willing to swap out our 2017 pick maybe Tim Hardaway for lower round 1's and the 3m in cash we have to buy 2nd rounders if it makes sense

We could have as much as 45mm in cap space and at-least 30mm. If we are aggressive say to a Goran Dragic and offer him a very lucrative deal--one that would allocate Phoenix to lay nearly 40mm on the PG position alone--I think we have a great chance to grab him. I think Dragic is a stabilizer here. Hes a 20 point PG who shoots 50%. If we had Dragic just on current team--we might be 15-10 instead of 5-25. Dragic ALONE will make this team (IF put back together reasonably) WITH Carmelo a playoff team next year in the east. We need a PREMIUM PG. Triangle or not--the evidence that a high level PG=success is to high to ignore. I think Phil can do the math the number is over 90% of good teams have one. We do not--we have WAY too much money in an avg PG at best. He's a stretch candidate if I ever saw one. I accept that trade as over winners losers who cares--just get rid of that fcking salary.

What I'm saying here is I believe that our current position is not as dire as TT points out. Notice my post history--Ive been awful negative at times when its warranted. When have we had 1 year and I mean 1 year with a potential top 3 pick and possibility 45mm in cash With a Carmelo already on the roster? And to those who hate Carmelo--ok fine. But Carmelo with Ok4 and Dragic should be a much improved Carmelo when increased talent moves into the pivot and to the PG.

I don't see us doing anything to move Calderon or Smith Briggs. So I estimate we will have 24mil in salary cap space. Then you have to add in the rookie scale contract of our top 3 pick if we land one. Which would be 4.6ml to 3.6mil. Or 3.0mil if #5. Which would leave us wit 19-21mil in cap space in free agency.

newyorknewyork wrote:I don't see us doing anything to move Calderon or Smith Briggs. So I estimate we will have 24mil in salary cap space. Then you have to add in the rookie scale contract of our top 3 pick if we land one. Which would be 4.6ml to 3.6mil. Or 3.0mil if #5. Which would leave us wit 19-21mil in cap space in free agency.

JR Smith may be convinced by his agent to opt out and look for a long term contract somewhere else. We can only HOPE! If that did happen it would be an awesome development. In any event we'll have enough money in FA to get pretty much whoever we want as long as they want to come here. Of the players most likely to come none are out of the Knicks price range. As I posted earlier:

PLAYER	           POS.	USING	     BASE SALARY	     DEAD MONEY         CAP FIGURE
Carmelo Anthony	   SF	Bird	     $22,875,000     ($101,606,280)	$22,875,000
Jose Calderon	   PG	Cap Space    $7,402,812	     ($15,111,239)	$7,402,812
J.R. Smith	   SG	Early Bird   $6,399,750	     ($6,399,750)	$6,399,750
Pablo Prigioni	   PG	Mini MLE	     $1,734,572	     ($290,000)	        $1,734,572
Shane Larkin	   PG	Rookie	     $1,675,320	     ($1,675,320)	$1,675,320
Tim Hardaway Jr.   SG	Rookie	     $1,304,520      ($1,304,520)	$1,304,520
Cleanthony Early   SF	Minimum	     $845,059	                        $845,059
TOTALS
2015 TOTALS		BASE SALARY		 	                CAP FIGURE
Active Contracts        $42,237,033	-	-	-	-	$42,237,033
Non-guaranteed		$2,579,631	-	-	-	-	$2,579,631
                        $42,237,033	-	-	-	- 	$42,237,033
Total w/ Cap Holds      $42,237,033	-	-	-	- 	$42,237,033

We could very easily be talking about a VERY different team next year. Just looking at the amount of players that could be turned over. Drafting well will be important long term, but there are some decent Free Agents who could help to raise the level of play of the team and form a more productive base of role players. We need to see if Phil can sign quality players from the FA pool.

Amir Johnson, Robing Lopez, Kosta Koufos, Omer Asik, Enes Kanter are possible targets at center.

Brandon Knight, Reggie Jackson, Goran Dragic, Jeremy Lin are possible targets at PG.

Paul Milsap, Brandon Bass, Brandan Wright, Kevin Serphin, Tristan Thompson, Thomas Robinson are possible targets at PF.

None of these players are by themselves going to change the Knicks but as a group could raise the production of the team as a whole.

nixluva wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:I don't see us doing anything to move Calderon or Smith Briggs. So I estimate we will have 24mil in salary cap space. Then you have to add in the rookie scale contract of our top 3 pick if we land one. Which would be 4.6ml to 3.6mil. Or 3.0mil if #5. Which would leave us wit 19-21mil in cap space in free agency.

JR Smith may be convinced by his agent to opt out and look for a long term contract somewhere else. We can only HOPE! If that did happen it would be an awesome development. In any event we'll have enough money in FA to get pretty much whoever we want as long as they want to come here. Of the players most likely to come none are out of the Knicks price range. As I posted earlier:

PLAYER	           POS.	USING	     BASE SALARY	     DEAD MONEY         CAP FIGURE
Carmelo Anthony	   SF	Bird	     $22,875,000     ($101,606,280)	$22,875,000
Jose Calderon	   PG	Cap Space    $7,402,812	     ($15,111,239)	$7,402,812
J.R. Smith	   SG	Early Bird   $6,399,750	     ($6,399,750)	$6,399,750
Pablo Prigioni	   PG	Mini MLE	     $1,734,572	     ($290,000)	        $1,734,572
Shane Larkin	   PG	Rookie	     $1,675,320	     ($1,675,320)	$1,675,320
Tim Hardaway Jr.   SG	Rookie	     $1,304,520      ($1,304,520)	$1,304,520
Cleanthony Early   SF	Minimum	     $845,059	                        $845,059
TOTALS
2015 TOTALS		BASE SALARY		 	                CAP FIGURE
Active Contracts        $42,237,033	-	-	-	-	$42,237,033
Non-guaranteed		$2,579,631	-	-	-	-	$2,579,631
                        $42,237,033	-	-	-	- 	$42,237,033
Total w/ Cap Holds      $42,237,033	-	-	-	- 	$42,237,033

We could very easily be talking about a VERY different team next year. Just looking at the amount of players that could be turned over. Drafting well will be important long term, but there are some decent Free Agents who could help to raise the level of play of the team and form a more productive base of role players. We need to see if Phil can sign quality players from the FA pool.

Amir Johnson, Robing Lopez, Kosta Koufos, Omer Asik, Enes Kanter are possible targets at center.

Brandon Knight, Reggie Jackson, Goran Dragic, Jeremy Lin are possible targets at PG.

Paul Milsap, Brandon Bass, Brandan Wright, Kevin Serphin, Tristan Thompson, Thomas Robinson are possible targets at PF.

None of these players are by themselves going to change the Knicks but as a group could raise the production of the team as a whole.

Can't assume Jr will opt out. Must assume worst possible cap space. Though using the Stretch on Jr is an option. The goal should be to try and establish a foundation for future long term success. Doesn't mean we need to tank every yr for the next 5yrs like some fans are claiming. But it does mean that we should map out a 3 yr process adding deals while maintaining cap flexibility getting better each yr.

Shump needs to be traded for a future draft pick to give us a future asset. Same thing may need to happen for Hardaway Jr.

newyorknewyork wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

TripleThreat wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:
The Knicks can take a 3 tier approach to rebuilding/retooling.
...if its hits right--Id say 2.

^

Again, some fans will take the most unlikely scenario, where everything lines up and everything goes in an ideal sense. Big men ( not saying the Knicks will get any of the players that Briggs mention, but acknowledging that this draft class has a lot of pivot prospects) historically have taken much longer, than other skill positions in the NBA, to develop.

Briggs expect the Knicks to win the draft lottery and get rookie producing IMMEDIATELY at an All Star level and at a historic pace.

Is it possible? Well technically, it's in theory, possible for me to get double teamed tomorrow night by a pair of SI Swimsuit models. But is it likely? No, it's not likely.

No one knows for sure where the Knicks will end up in the draft conversation, all anyone can do is hope for the best and hope the Knicks select well and the best player available. ( That is realistic)

Briggs keeps talking about trading back into the first round to get another first round pick. And yet again, I challenge him, with WHAT ASSETS? How do you get back into the first round and get another pick without 1) Trading away future picks and 2) Taking on bad contracts ? Questions he refuses to answer. The Knicks are virtually barren of assets.

Briggs will also contend that the Knicks will get this guy or that guy in free agency, when the reality is the advantage in resigning belongs to the incumbent team, and that most young free agents with upside are usually restricted. Will the Knicks get a Tier 1 free agent? It's possible. But is it likely? Probably not. Even if the player moves on, there are 30 other teams out there.

Briggs also keeps pushing this two year time table. Again, this would require the 2015 pick to IMMEDIATELY play at an All Star and historic level, and since the Knicks have no 2016 picks, what are they going to do? There are only so many free agents and so many dollars to spend.

Stephen Curry is playing at an MVP level. He took time to develop.

Jimmy Butler, one of the apples of Brigg's eyes, took time to develop.

Reggie Jackson. Even Greg Monroe.

The Spurs. OKC. Warriors. Clippers. Bulls. Cavs. It took years for each of these teams to get to where they are now. Even the Cavs, it took years of stockpiling young assets to get to this place to entice LBJ. They drafted players, they tried to develop players, they tried to make smart trades, but they made mistakes along the way. But none of them made this major 2 year turnaround ( esp when year 2 would give them zero picks) on the fly from arguably the least talented roster in the NBA to a playoff contender.

To build something that stands the test of time, it takes time to establish that. Time and time again, NBA history has shown that massive change simply doesn't operate at the same timetable as a MLB and NFL team can.

The Knicks are in their current hell because Dolan and Zeke made moves to appease fans like you. Unrealistic fans who demand unrealistic results in unrealistic timetables. I do like your strategy though of simply ignoring the logical counterpoints you don't like. When you have no answer how the Knicks are going to rebuild when Year 2 of your 2 year plan, they have no draft picks, you'll just turtle up.

One thing about Briggs is that he doesn't come to the board to argue about nonsense. He only cares about possibilities and angles the Knicks could try and take to improve the team. He is one of the most die hard Knick fans I have seen on any message board. There is no reason to try and attack him.

Briggs has only been bringing up possibilities for the Knicks to improve. He isn't going to hold Phil accountable if he doesn't complete every single one of his fantasy possibilities(except passing on an OK4 or trading the pickat the draft). He will just adapt to how it plays out and continue to look for ways to improve the team.

You wrote all this while ignoring

How long would it take for us to compete at a higher level. Well we cant make mistakes we have to a lot of things go our way and that is unknown right now. 6 years--if its hits right--Id say 2.

And even if the draft pick took 3yrs to develop into an allstar. If in 2 yrs the Knicks have a good young foundation even if they aren't contender level yet, most Knick fans will take that and continue to look for ways for the Knicks to improve from there. There will be no outrage over not being a contender in 2yrs if we have a young player(top 5 pick) to look forward to over the next 10yrs.

Whats not productive is the whole as long as Carmelo is here we aren't going to do anything talk and all our moves are going to fail just because Carmelo Anthony is on the roster.

Triplethreat clearly put a lot of thought into that reply and I all I see is pretty mild criticism of Briggs' ideas. There are enough posts with name-calling and other crap that should be more alarming than anything he just wrote.

The general principal of what he wrote I agree with in terms of building it over multiple yrs time and the time it will take to develop. What I don't like was that he quoted only part of what Briggs actually said. Then went on to challenge Briggs possibilities and fandom when Briggs clearly stated "we have to have a lot of things go our way and that is unknown right now". "If it hits right then 2yrs".

"If it hits right" includes landing OK4 and him being a stud early. Signing one stud and mutiple other pieces over a 2 yr span. None of these things in Briggs post were said to be expected but only possibilities. Clearly he is stating best possible case scenario but I don't see Briggs claiming he expects these things to all happen like TT was trying to insinuate.

I think his point is that Briggs doesn't realize *how* unlikely it is for that path to work out, though. You start throwing in several things that each have low but reasonable probabilities and soon you're at a path that has a 1 in a thousand chance of working.

Well I don't say anything is likely--I just give facts and possibilities based on true %. I think you can see I said we have a 20-25% chance of landing pick 1---that is correct if we are the worst or second to worst team.

I said its likely that we'd have a top 3 pick --that we'd have a 70% chance--at current position--that is correct.
I said that we'd have 30-45mm depending on what we do with current players. I said we have a great possibility of landing atleast 1 great player--we may have to over pay--probability--60-70%
I said we should focus on improving from within looking to be opportunistic look for smaller trades and stay away from big ones because were not good at it.
I said if things go our way--fall in place--I think we can make the playoffs next year and if 2016 yields a superstar to add to our equation in FA--then two years would not be out of the question.

I havent seen many players as nimble skilled or quick as OK4 in recent years for their size with the exception of Cousins(but Ok4 is more advanced). Blake Griffin was a 23-10 player right away it took Anthony Davis two years. I view Ok4 as better than most NBA 4's today as in right now I think he could remove his Duke Uniform and put on an NBA one and it will be difficult for NBA players to contend with a nimble skilled 6-11 270 pound PF in the low box. He may be better in the pros in terms of scoring. So if we are lucky and we hit it right and get this guy I believe we have a 20+ 8-10 rebound post 4 "right away" that's my humble opinion. I also think there are a varying degree of really good NBA players underneath that we can potentially add if we are willing to swap out our 2017 pick maybe Tim Hardaway for lower round 1's and the 3m in cash we have to buy 2nd rounders if it makes sense

We could have as much as 45mm in cap space and at-least 30mm. If we are aggressive say to a Goran Dragic and offer him a very lucrative deal--one that would allocate Phoenix to lay nearly 40mm on the PG position alone--I think we have a great chance to grab him. I think Dragic is a stabilizer here. Hes a 20 point PG who shoots 50%. If we had Dragic just on current team--we might be 15-10 instead of 5-25. Dragic ALONE will make this team (IF put back together reasonably) WITH Carmelo a playoff team next year in the east. We need a PREMIUM PG. Triangle or not--the evidence that a high level PG=success is to high to ignore. I think Phil can do the math the number is over 90% of good teams have one. We do not--we have WAY too much money in an avg PG at best. He's a stretch candidate if I ever saw one. I accept that trade as over winners losers who cares--just get rid of that fcking salary.

What I'm saying here is I believe that our current position is not as dire as TT points out. Notice my post history--Ive been awful negative at times when its warranted. When have we had 1 year and I mean 1 year with a potential top 3 pick and possibility 45mm in cash With a Carmelo already on the roster? And to those who hate Carmelo--ok fine. But Carmelo with Ok4 and Dragic should be a much improved Carmelo when increased talent moves into the pivot and to the PG.

I don't see us doing anything to move Calderon or Smith Briggs. So I estimate we will have 24mil in salary cap space. Then you have to add in the rookie scale contract of our top 3 pick if we land one. Which would be 4.6ml to 3.6mil. Or 3.0mil if #5. Which would leave us wit 19-21mil in cap space in free agency.

Well for me it's an easy one with Calderon. You use the stretch provision which loosens up 4.4 and 4.7mm in the subsequent years. I do think we can get rid of prigs. With JR--well there is only hope there. We could become creative with him--having him opt out and giving him a 2 year deal worth 7.5mm with the second year guaranteed to 2.8 mm--so if we cut him--he gets his 6.3mm but we would save 3mm to use on FA net year. Downside is adding that 2.8mm to the cap following year. There are ways to add up to 8mm in cap space next year if we cant get rid of JR.

TripleThreat wrote:

Papabear wrote:How long will it take for the Knicks to be a real contender?

IMHO, from the time Melo is traded off the roster, and if Phil Jackson accepts that he needs to hire a real GM ( someone with real scouting and analytics experience and has paid their dues up the ranks in some other winning franchise) instead of playing bump and go at age 70, I would say 6 years.

One thing that some Knicks fans here do is make the assumptions that

1) The Knicks will get the ideal "draft pick" slot, no matter what
2) Said player will IMMEDIATELY make a massive impact
3) There exists no chance for the player to bust or not work out for the Knicks

The Knicks need to build through the draft, but fans have to accept that even if you do everything you can, you will hit on some picks and you will miss on some picks.

IMHO, right now, the Knicks have the least talented 15 man roster in the entire NBA. When you consider long term potential. It will take time to restock the talent larder.

Which is why Phil's first day on the job

Should have been trying to amass as many picks as possible

He's dished away almost 3 after acquiring 2

He should be about 3 up and not break even on draft pick assets

If not more, had he engaged the Bulls on a S&T

Bonn1997 wrote:

TripleThreat wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:
The Knicks can take a 3 tier approach to rebuilding/retooling.
...if its hits right--Id say 2.

^

Again, some fans will take the most unlikely scenario, where everything lines up and everything goes in an ideal sense. Big men ( not saying the Knicks will get any of the players that Briggs mention, but acknowledging that this draft class has a lot of pivot prospects) historically have taken much longer, than other skill positions in the NBA, to develop.

Briggs expect the Knicks to win the draft lottery and get rookie producing IMMEDIATELY at an All Star level and at a historic pace.

Is it possible? Well technically, it's in theory, possible for me to get double teamed tomorrow night by a pair of SI Swimsuit models. But is it likely? No, it's not likely.

No one knows for sure where the Knicks will end up in the draft conversation, all anyone can do is hope for the best and hope the Knicks select well and the best player available. ( That is realistic)

Briggs keeps talking about trading back into the first round to get another first round pick. And yet again, I challenge him, with WHAT ASSETS? How do you get back into the first round and get another pick without 1) Trading away future picks and 2) Taking on bad contracts ? Questions he refuses to answer. The Knicks are virtually barren of assets.

Briggs will also contend that the Knicks will get this guy or that guy in free agency, when the reality is the advantage in resigning belongs to the incumbent team, and that most young free agents with upside are usually restricted. Will the Knicks get a Tier 1 free agent? It's possible. But is it likely? Probably not. Even if the player moves on, there are 30 other teams out there.

Briggs also keeps pushing this two year time table. Again, this would require the 2015 pick to IMMEDIATELY play at an All Star and historic level, and since the Knicks have no 2016 picks, what are they going to do? There are only so many free agents and so many dollars to spend.

Stephen Curry is playing at an MVP level. He took time to develop.

Jimmy Butler, one of the apples of Brigg's eyes, took time to develop.

Reggie Jackson. Even Greg Monroe.

The Spurs. OKC. Warriors. Clippers. Bulls. Cavs. It took years for each of these teams to get to where they are now. Even the Cavs, it took years of stockpiling young assets to get to this place to entice LBJ. They drafted players, they tried to develop players, they tried to make smart trades, but they made mistakes along the way. But none of them made this major 2 year turnaround ( esp when year 2 would give them zero picks) on the fly from arguably the least talented roster in the NBA to a playoff contender.

To build something that stands the test of time, it takes time to establish that. Time and time again, NBA history has shown that massive change simply doesn't operate at the same timetable as a MLB and NFL team can.

The Knicks are in their current hell because Dolan and Zeke made moves to appease fans like you. Unrealistic fans who demand unrealistic results in unrealistic timetables. I do like your strategy though of simply ignoring the logical counterpoints you don't like. When you have no answer how the Knicks are going to rebuild when Year 2 of your 2 year plan, they have no draft picks, you'll just turtle up.

This is exactly correct. People don't realize that when you make several assumptions, the probability of it all happening is the *product* of each specific event. So, you can do the following math:
Likelihood of a top 2 draft pick: Maybe 1 in 3
Likelihood that pick becomes an all star in 2 years: Again maybe 1 in 3
Likelihood Melo is still an all star by then (his 14th season): Again maybe 1 in 3
What's 1/3*1/3*1/3? Already, you're at a 1 in 27 chance and there are still many more assumptions you'd have to make for this team to be a contender - like another top FA signing here and a strong support cast. The 2 year rebuild based on the plan that these posters are laying out strikes me as having at best a 1 in 100 or maybe 1 in a thousand chance of working. Of course, if you just focus individually on each element I laid out, you can feel like it has a 1 in 3 shot, but that's just a misunderstanding of probability.

(1 in 27) / 2 / 1.5 = PhilKnowsBestIntagible