newyorknewyork wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:How did Chris Singleton pan out? The guy everyone wanted over Shump? You could probably cherry pick players you should've taken from every draft in history.

This thread isn't about cherry picking prospect but a legit question if new york is capable of developing players properly.

If Reggie Jackson was drafted by he Knicks would he be in line for the payday he is in line for right now? Or would his inability to shoot consistently become magnified and ran out of town?

If Shump displayed even half of what Reggie Jackson has shown he'd be a freaking God around here. I mean, look how Knicks fans overrated Hardaway last year after a couple hot shooting nights. Shump has _never, EVER_ put together a string of performances even half as good as what Jackson did when Durant and Westbrook were out. Nor has he ever played as well as Jackson has as a backup the past couple seasons in OKC. Jackson is a better player in almost every way and its not even close.

Also, there were a ton of questions around Shump around the time of that draft. He wasn't even at MSG on draft night (the guys who dont show are mostly the peeps who think they may not go in the 1st) and many analysts, fans, GMS's thought the pick was a reach. Thats what i remember at least. He displayed the exact same deficiencies in college as he does now. He never developed or fulfilled his upside. Simple as that.

H1AND1 wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:How did Chris Singleton pan out? The guy everyone wanted over Shump? You could probably cherry pick players you should've taken from every draft in history.

This thread isn't about cherry picking prospect but a legit question if new york is capable of developing players properly.

If Reggie Jackson was drafted by he Knicks would he be in line for the payday he is in line for right now? Or would his inability to shoot consistently become magnified and ran out of town?

If Shump displayed even half of what Reggie Jackson has shown he'd be a freaking God around here. I mean, look how Knicks fans overrated Hardaway last year after a couple hot shooting nights. Shump has _never, EVER_ put together a string of performances even half as good as what Jackson did when Durant and Westbrook were out. Nor has he ever played as well as Jackson has as a backup the past couple seasons in OKC. Jackson is a better player in almost every way and its not even close.

Also, there were a ton of questions around Shump around the time of that draft. He wasn't even at MSG on draft night (the guys who dont show are mostly the peeps who think they may not go in the 1st) and many analysts, fans, GMS's thought the pick was a reach. Thats what i remember at least. He displayed the exact same deficiencies in college as he does now. He never developed or fulfilled his upside. Simple as that.

Jackson his first 2 yes barley played, was sent down to D league a couple times and was an inefficient scorer. Would he have lasted in NY to make it to yr 3 and 4?

Vmart wrote:

H1AND1 wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:How did Chris Singleton pan out? The guy everyone wanted over Shump? You could probably cherry pick players you should've taken from every draft in history.

This thread isn't about cherry picking prospect but a legit question if new york is capable of developing players properly.

If Reggie Jackson was drafted by he Knicks would he be in line for the payday he is in line for right now? Or would his inability to shoot consistently become magnified and ran out of town?

If Shump displayed even half of what Reggie Jackson has shown he'd be a freaking God around here. I mean, look how Knicks fans overrated Hardaway last year after a couple hot shooting nights. Shump has _never, EVER_ put together a string of performances even half as good as what Jackson did when Durant and Westbrook were out. Nor has he ever played as well as Jackson has as a backup the past couple seasons in OKC. Jackson is a better player in almost every way and its not even close.

Also, there were a ton of questions around Shump around the time of that draft. He wasn't even at MSG on draft night (the guys who dont show are mostly the peeps who think they may not go in the 1st) and many analysts, fans, GMS's thought the pick was a reach. Thats what i remember at least. He displayed the exact same deficiencies in college as he does now. He never developed or fulfilled his upside. Simple as that.

THJ is a good player. Let THJ have consistent run and you will get better numbers. If you want players to develop faster give them the run with a green light that's how players get good. The biggest problem with Shump is his skill set is not good.

I think if you gave THjr 35 minutes and 20 shots a night he would shoot about 38% and give you 18ppg 2rebs 1assis and thats not good.

fishmike wrote:

Vmart wrote:

H1AND1 wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:How did Chris Singleton pan out? The guy everyone wanted over Shump? You could probably cherry pick players you should've taken from every draft in history.

This thread isn't about cherry picking prospect but a legit question if new york is capable of developing players properly.

If Reggie Jackson was drafted by he Knicks would he be in line for the payday he is in line for right now? Or would his inability to shoot consistently become magnified and ran out of town?

If Shump displayed even half of what Reggie Jackson has shown he'd be a freaking God around here. I mean, look how Knicks fans overrated Hardaway last year after a couple hot shooting nights. Shump has _never, EVER_ put together a string of performances even half as good as what Jackson did when Durant and Westbrook were out. Nor has he ever played as well as Jackson has as a backup the past couple seasons in OKC. Jackson is a better player in almost every way and its not even close.

Also, there were a ton of questions around Shump around the time of that draft. He wasn't even at MSG on draft night (the guys who dont show are mostly the peeps who think they may not go in the 1st) and many analysts, fans, GMS's thought the pick was a reach. Thats what i remember at least. He displayed the exact same deficiencies in college as he does now. He never developed or fulfilled his upside. Simple as that.

THJ is a good player. Let THJ have consistent run and you will get better numbers. If you want players to develop faster give them the run with a green light that's how players get good. The biggest problem with Shump is his skill set is not good.

its also how players develop bad habits. THjr is NOT good right now. No defense, no rebounding, no passing and for every good shooting game he follows it up with a 2-11, 1-7 and 3-10

I think if you gave THjr 35 minutes and 20 shots a night he would shoot about 38% and give you 18ppg 2rebs 1assis and thats not good.

That's how you learn in the NBA I compare THJ to Klay Thompson, I don't see a vast difference in their game. Only thing I see is one getting an opportunity and the other being held back. You won't get consistency when the minutes are inconsistent. The Knicks have given JR run and Shump crazy run I would rather see THJ get the run.

Vmart wrote:

F500ONE wrote:

Vmart wrote:To be fair to Shumpert he had an ACL procedure that set him back physically and mentally.

We've traded other young injured and mentally fragile players before

Nothing should get in the way of us doing it now

Weak Sauce excuse

I agree with you. Shump should be traded his development has been capped out, he has the stage you are what you are in basketball terms.

The Knicks never seem to properly evaluate their own personnel. Landry Fields was a prime example. Anybody who watched him in college or even watched his games when he was playing well would have noticed that he simply was not going to have a long career in the league. The Knicks refused to sell high on him, instead waited for him to plummet. The better organizations know when to sell high. Shump/Fields would've been solid at or near the peak if the was run well, which we all know it's not.

SwishAndDish13 wrote:

Vmart wrote:

F500ONE wrote:

Vmart wrote:To be fair to Shumpert he had an ACL procedure that set him back physically and mentally.

We've traded other young injured and mentally fragile players before

Nothing should get in the way of us doing it now

Weak Sauce excuse

I agree with you. Shump should be traded his development has been capped out, he has the stage you are what you are in basketball terms.

The Knicks never seem to properly evaluate their own personnel. Landry Fields was a prime example. Anybody who watched him in college or even watched his games when he was playing well would have noticed that he simply was not going to have a long career in the league. The Knicks refused to sell high on him, instead waited for him to plummet. The better organizations know when to sell high. Shump/Fields would've been solid at or near the peak if the was run well, which we all know it's not.

Fields was here. The rumor when he was a FA was Knicks were going to use him in a S%T for Nash (instead of just bring back Lin) and the Knicks were good at the time so the Raptors came in and offered him a ridiculous contract the Knicks were right not to match

fishmike wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

fishmike wrote:interesting topic. First lets get one thing out of the way. Shump hasnt panned out because he plays with Melo. That aside...

When you project these prospects to the NBA they all have holes to fills and big hurdles to overcome. Some of those are accomplished by the player mostly, others with the help of the team and support and environment etc.

I think Shump was right up there in terms of talent with those guys mentioned. Ultimately he's just not as good.

Shump has moments of great defense but is not a good defensive player. He constantly loses his man. He's a terrible offensive player. I think everyone agrees the physical tools are there but he's a stupid player without the skill set to overcome that. How do you scout that? Its the real xfactor. The fail with Shump is he just cant do anything consistently. Cant shoot, cant defend, cant create, terrible open floor player, not much of a finisher... but we have seen him get hot, play great D, throw down sick dunks.. he just cant do it enough to be a good rotation guy.

I think his destiny is on the bench somewhere where a team can afford to yank him when he stinks and ride him when hes playing well

You think that one is on Walsh? or just that the draft being a crap shoot? As you said all players have skills and holes and its hard to know which ones are going to cover those holes. Bigdaddys point on Shump's lack of mental toughness was a good one as well. And something that might be necessary for all NY prospects going forward.

I think its mostly crapshoot of the lottery. The teams that have Faried, Butler, Harris, Jackson... what do they all have in common? They have their own draft pool. We could easily talk about failed picks the Nugs, Bulls, etc have made over the years.

Shump is the longest tenured Knick draft pick. Thats the real problem. Knicks have been plenty successful in the draft over the last 10 years... just none of them are still on the Knicks

Thats true. I think Walsh's legacy looks increasingly awful with time and hindsight (but then hindsight makes everything obvious):

-Gave away Crawford for nothing
-Gave away Zach Randolph for nothing
-Traded David Lee for Anthony 'Out of the League' Randolph, and trash
-Drafted Jordan Hill in a draft of PGs when we desperately needed a PG- passing up on Holiday, Lawson, Jeff Teague, heck even Darren Collison
-Traded the right to swap 2011 pick, and traded our 2012 first rounder to Houston, and the player we had just drafted with our first rounder for T-Mac & Rodrigues & cap space which we ended up not really needing because we lucked out in free agency.

I think we are really bad at developing talent. If we'd drafted Jimmy Butler over Shump, I'm not sure that Jimmy Butler wouldn't be playing like Shumpert now and vice versa. Part of that is the media gets in their heads and they lose confidence, but the main reason is the lack of system, culture and vets.

Swishfm3 wrote:Shumpert problem is that his main priority IS NOT Basketball...its music (which, btw, he is not that bad at). That's the issue. It's not the Knicks organization or teammates...it's his lack of focus on the game.

He's trying to brand just like Melo

His girl is heavily involved in the music industry and he adores her

As far as his rapping ability it's average, nothing special or unique at all

TripleThreat wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:So the question is, did Walsh choose an inferior prospect or is NY not capable of really developing and growing young players?

I think part of the issue is this - even elite franchises with good front offices MISS on picks. Sometimes it happens. No matter how hard you try, how hard you scout, how much you invest in analytics, sometimes you miss.

The Knicks main problem is that they GIVE UP SO MANY DRAFT PICKS, that the few picks they have, when they miss, the impact is savage onto the team's hopes for the future.

Felipe Lopez
John Salmons
Beno Udrih
Leandro Barbosa
Leon Smith
James Anderson
Ian Mahimini

These are Spurs late first rounders who didn't pan out for them. The trick is, they kept trying, they just didn't jettison their picks for years and years and then laid their hopes on the occasional pick they got.

2014
2012
2010
2004

Yes, the Knicks have made some bad picks and bad trades, but if you've given up 40 percent of your first round picks in the last decade, and esp 3 picks in the last 5, you are going to make reloading your team that much more difficult.

The Knicks are going to MISS on draft picks. All teams do. The problem is, in part, creating a ratio that chokes out your hope. When you miss 1 out of 3 chances, that's a huge chunk of pain. If you miss 1 out of 5, still hurts, but not as much, you've still given yourself other opportunities.

The Knicks currently are at a point where only the Stepien Rule saved them, and each first rounder has the pressure of emcompassing two years of hope onto his back.

Boston and Philly are literally armed to the teeth with draft picks now. They know some of them are going to miss. Hell, Philly might not be sure that Noel,Saric and Embiid will work out, but the prevailing theory is a lot of shots in the quiver means better odds of hitting something that pans out.

A guy like Shump has enough pressure to try to pan out, the franchise can't raise the level of the pressure cooker around him by removing potential arrows from the asset quiver.

I agree with this and have been leaning towards this view point. At the same time Shump was a comparable prospect to all the guys taken around him. Was Shump just a miss?