BRIGGS wrote:

Splat wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

Splat wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

mreinman wrote:I try to concentrate on the current (stench)

that is why I never propose wild fantasy trades or predict / scout college players.

Its kinda worthless since its just talk that never actually happens.

Well the honesty is we really sck and we haev a draft pick which is going to be high--check
We have 24-25mm in cap space---check
We have a first round pick in 2017 we can potentially trade up to this draft---check

Can we move Melo to SG? Absolutely it makes a ton of sense.

There is no fantasy-we have the assets to improve mightily and quickly.

As Clyde would say, you are posting with Gusto!

Its just the truth--it is what it is--we have what we have. We have a high draft pick and maximum cap space. With some thought process and the right partner--we can also move an asset up in time.

I love basketball--and have made dozens of different potential rosters and scenarios. But the roster that makes the most sense WITH MELO is moving him to SG. It makes 100% sense--hes a jumpshooter. the SF position needs to be a better athlete and Melo is overwhelmed at 4 defensively. So moving him to SG @ 6-88 makes us a bigger team. The whole time we thought we had no SG--we do--his name is Carmelo.

So no penetration, just jump shots from our guards? Melo camped out in three point land? He'll go to the free throw line six times a season. Sounds like making lemonade out of lemons, but not exactly a competitive outcome from our SG position.

Who is the Spurs penetrators on unit 1--just the PG.

fishmike wrote:Kawhi is a perfect guy to try to pry away by overpaying a bit. He's worth it. A nice piece moving forward.

He scaled off a bit this year but he would great to get here

lets bring him in an fuk him up. Maybe we could have him stand in the corner and watch.

BRIGGS wrote:We can win in spite of any problem with Melo and we can't jump on his arse anyway--this team has more holes than the Titanic. First I think it's fair that the coach hears the player's out about this triangle stuff. No reason to be set it stone on a system no one likes.

Melo was a part of many winning teams including ours which may have even gone farther if it didnt collapse physically. We can win with him again.

It's in my believe that we need to build this roster in cohesion from interior out. I "believe" we can really score big from this draft and when we do we will put an interior foundation in place for 12-14 years. I also believe we can grab two role players from rd 2. We are on a rebuild--accept it and approach it in a smart way. The more lines you throw out the more fish you catch.

Free agency has to be methodical and smart. The more I look at it, the one name that pops in my head is Leonard. I do not think that the Spurs are going to give him a free agency max contract--but I think we should. He is the epitome of the player we need to focus on two ways 23 and still has incredible upside in front of him. A guy like Kawhi can help us move Melo back to SG--yep I said it. Melo's new best position is a 6-8 SG. He's a shooter--thats what he is so take advantage of his frame and play him to strengths. At Sg it mitigates defensive deficiencies.

This is a 2 yr plan and we have allocated so much to Calderon PG might have to be fixed the next year. BUt Im willing to find a new vet for 2-3mm as a stop gap and if needed move Calderon to bac k up status

Let me stop there for one minute and show off an imaginary roster that actually has a chance to be real.

Lets say we get Ok4 and Dakari Johnson in this draft by winning the lottery and trading a top 5 restricted pick in 2017 to any team in the mid range who does not want to draft in rd 1 this year. Im immediately start both

That puts me at

C-7-0 260 Dakari Johnson

PF 6-10 270 J Okafor

SF 6-7 230 Kwahni Leoanard

SG Carmelo Anthony

PG TBD but I need someone who can run

If I can I want to resign amare for 1 year and a team option for 4mm per. I know some people dont like him but he's still a guy who can really play in this league and we need him as a quality frontcourt player UNTIL such time we have additional max cap space to replace him.

JR Smith --gone hes never playing one more minute for the Knicks past this season hes just done prigs is also gone Bargs etc.. F gone.

Look at this foundation these cats are young and I know they can play--all of them. A 100% culture change in the next 6 months. Moving Melo to 2--fcking genius.

Role players in rd 2 with some left overs like Acy and maybe Wear.

While we need some luck with this--this is something that CAN actually happen--I mean how many F Knick fans would be going crazy for something like this? <elo +- doesnt need to bring the whole ship down--you just put him in the right position for the best of the team. hes a jumpshooter hes our new Reggie Miller/Allan Houston. This will take stress off of his body and at 6-8 he becomes an asset on defense.

Briggs - I don't think you're that far off with your idea of moving Melo to SG- probably most here don't remember, but Dr. J moved to SG in his last year or two of his career.

I hope we do well in the lottery. Our luck has been bad for so long, I don't see us with anything better than perhaps the 4th pick, and I'm glad the NBA didn't change it or I could have seen us getting screwed worse.

I love the idea of trying to add picks- I just think it will be too hard. Just think of when we won the lottery and draft Ewing if we had had a second first round pick that we could have used that same year - we might very well have had a dynasty if we had picked right- I mean, just imagine Ewing and Karl Malone up front for their long careers together.

fishmike wrote:

TripleThreat wrote:5) Melo is a POWER FORWARD. He can't defend the wing position. The difference between a SF and a SG is a very thin blurry line. You are either a wing player or you are not. Melo is a 12 year NBA veteran. He's not getting younger and faster tomorrow. You can't contend if you can't defend and Melo cannot defend well period, but he would be torched nightly by the league's other shooting guards.

Once again another UK anti-Melo post from someone who has zero fact, tons of emotion and has no clue what he's talking about.

But hey... Im hear to help.
http://www.82games.com/1415/14NYK8.HTM

If you look at opponents stats you will see when Melo plays the 3 his opponent is shooting a dismal .439 EFG%

Its actually the PFs he's having problems guarding.

But dont let fact, reason, logic or reality get in your way. Carry on

StarksEwing1 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

TripleThreat wrote:5) Melo is a POWER FORWARD. He can't defend the wing position. The difference between a SF and a SG is a very thin blurry line. You are either a wing player or you are not. Melo is a 12 year NBA veteran. He's not getting younger and faster tomorrow. You can't contend if you can't defend and Melo cannot defend well period, but he would be torched nightly by the league's other shooting guards.

Once again another UK anti-Melo post from someone who has zero fact, tons of emotion and has no clue what he's talking about.

But hey... Im hear to help.
http://www.82games.com/1415/14NYK8.HTM

If you look at opponents stats you will see when Melo plays the 3 his opponent is shooting a dismal .439 EFG%

Its actually the PFs he's having problems guarding.

But dont let fact, reason, logic or reality get in your way. Carry on

Fishmike i know you are chief of the melo police BUT Triplethreat really didnt bash melo. I mean even the biggest supporters can agree that defense has never been Melo's strength by a longdhot. Triplethreat also brings up a fair point which is Melo has had great success playing the 4. I wouldnt say he is a traditional power forward but he fits better at the 4 because he is a good rebounder and can get by most power forwards.

No... Im not calling Melo a great defender. He does play defense and effort is there, but its never been a big part of his game, nor do I pretend it to be.

My point to triplehate was he blasted Briggs and was pretty nasty in his post to one of the guys around here who doesnt say crap about anyone and continually adds good BB chat, and the point he was blasting Briggs on was simply not accurate. I agree Melo is best at PF but thats mostly on offense. On defense he's MUCH better, actually very effective against opposing 3s. Opposing 4s have a very high EFG% against MElo. Opposing 3s are very low.

Uptown wrote:Wow, this thread got derailed pretty easily...anyway, the idea of loading this team with two-way players is the exact approach we need to be taking. It's something I've been a proponent of and mentioned here quite often. In order for us to rebuild and attract talent to our dismal franchise ; we are going to have to overpay a little and Leonard is young, two way player i would do that for. Good Call Briggs....

NardDogNation wrote:

fishmike wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

TripleThreat wrote:5) Melo is a POWER FORWARD. He can't defend the wing position. The difference between a SF and a SG is a very thin blurry line. You are either a wing player or you are not. Melo is a 12 year NBA veteran. He's not getting younger and faster tomorrow. You can't contend if you can't defend and Melo cannot defend well period, but he would be torched nightly by the league's other shooting guards.

Once again another UK anti-Melo post from someone who has zero fact, tons of emotion and has no clue what he's talking about.

But hey... Im hear to help.
http://www.82games.com/1415/14NYK8.HTM

If you look at opponents stats you will see when Melo plays the 3 his opponent is shooting a dismal .439 EFG%

Its actually the PFs he's having problems guarding.

But dont let fact, reason, logic or reality get in your way. Carry on

Fishmike i know you are chief of the melo police BUT Triplethreat really didnt bash melo. I mean even the biggest supporters can agree that defense has never been Melo's strength by a longdhot. Triplethreat also brings up a fair point which is Melo has had great success playing the 4. I wouldnt say he is a traditional power forward but he fits better at the 4 because he is a good rebounder and can get by most power forwards.

its more like the BS police but OK.

No... Im not calling Melo a great defender. He does play defense and effort is there, but its never been a big part of his game, nor do I pretend it to be.

My point to triplehate was he blasted Briggs and was pretty nasty in his post to one of the guys around here who doesnt say crap about anyone and continually adds good BB chat, and the point he was blasting Briggs on was simply not accurate. I agree Melo is best at PF but thats mostly on offense. On defense he's MUCH better, actually very effective against opposing 3s. Opposing 4s have a very high EFG% against MElo. Opposing 3s are very low.

But does any of that account for where players are taking their shots? I'd have to imagine that 4's take more of their shots closer to the rim, which are statistically easier. So higher shooting numbers might not reflect anything about defense and everything about where you are taking shots.

good point Nard

NardDogNation wrote:

fishmike wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

TripleThreat wrote:5) Melo is a POWER FORWARD. He can't defend the wing position. The difference between a SF and a SG is a very thin blurry line. You are either a wing player or you are not. Melo is a 12 year NBA veteran. He's not getting younger and faster tomorrow. You can't contend if you can't defend and Melo cannot defend well period, but he would be torched nightly by the league's other shooting guards.

Once again another UK anti-Melo post from someone who has zero fact, tons of emotion and has no clue what he's talking about.

But hey... Im hear to help.
http://www.82games.com/1415/14NYK8.HTM

If you look at opponents stats you will see when Melo plays the 3 his opponent is shooting a dismal .439 EFG%

Its actually the PFs he's having problems guarding.

But dont let fact, reason, logic or reality get in your way. Carry on

Fishmike i know you are chief of the melo police BUT Triplethreat really didnt bash melo. I mean even the biggest supporters can agree that defense has never been Melo's strength by a longdhot. Triplethreat also brings up a fair point which is Melo has had great success playing the 4. I wouldnt say he is a traditional power forward but he fits better at the 4 because he is a good rebounder and can get by most power forwards.

its more like the BS police but OK.

No... Im not calling Melo a great defender. He does play defense and effort is there, but its never been a big part of his game, nor do I pretend it to be.

My point to triplehate was he blasted Briggs and was pretty nasty in his post to one of the guys around here who doesnt say crap about anyone and continually adds good BB chat, and the point he was blasting Briggs on was simply not accurate. I agree Melo is best at PF but thats mostly on offense. On defense he's MUCH better, actually very effective against opposing 3s. Opposing 4s have a very high EFG% against MElo. Opposing 3s are very low.

But does any of that account for where players are taking their shots? I'd have to imagine that 4's take more of their shots closer to the rim, which are statistically easier. So higher shooting numbers might not reflect anything about defense and everything about where you are taking shots.

I will tell you what I see and I think these #s and your point back that up. The one thing Melo does right on defense is he's stays between his man and the basket. He doesnt let you dribble past. That being said you can certainly shoot over him. So if your a 4 (David West kills Melo... thats one who comes to mind) who can back down a guy for a 10-12 foot turn around jumper, fade away etc that shot will be there all day and all night for you if Melo is guarding you. There arent any 3s in the league who can really do that to Melo so those guys are going to take many more jumpers. He also doesnt foul a ton.

So yes... I would agree 3s vs Melo are probably taking more longer (lower %) shots vs. Melo where as 4s are shooting much closer.

So back to the original point of all this.. doesnt that mean Melo is much better suited to defend wings than bigs? Seems that evidence points to him being better there

TripleThreat wrote:

BRIGGS wrote: We are on a rebuild--accept it

Briggs, do you "accept" how a practical and functional NBA franchise/roster rebuild actually works?

1) In almost every instance, talking about the 2015 NBA draft, you have the Knick winning the draft lottery and getting the first overall pick. You talk about it as if it's an absolute. Statistically speaking, the Knicks won't get the first overall pick. Also there's a good chance they won't get into the top three picks. The likelihood of the Knicks winning the NBA lottery this year is a total crapshoot. You talk about a "chance to be real" and "some luck" when what you are describing is actually called WINNING THE LOTTERY. You know when you have some trucker winning the PowerBall and getting hundreds of millions, and people call that WINNING THE LOTTERY. You do realize the concept is very close to the same with the NBA draft right? When they say you WON THE LOTTERY when you get a chance to draft a LBJ or a UniBrow or a Durant.

2) In almost every instance, you rely on each and every move working out and each and every player instantly becoming an elite contributor. Crazy notion Briggs, teams actually miss on picks and miss on signings and miss on trades. The elite teams, the good teams, the strong front offices, they hit more than they miss, but THEY DO MISS. The Spurs getting Richard Jefferson was a miss. It happens. You simply refuse to account for the basic concept that to get better, the Knicks are going to have to take some chances, but some of them actually stand a chance to work out. You also fail to recognize that 2nd round picks have a high bust out rate, many don't end up as rotational contributors but you believe the Knicks will suddenly HIT on two this offseason. You also fail to acknowledge that rookie big men take time to develop. And historically, they take much longer to develop compared to players at other positions. You also seem to think the Knicks can squeeze out a starting point guard for 2-3 million a year.

3) Kawhi Leonard is going to get paid. Has it crossed your mind yet that Leonard and his agent and the Spurs front office is going to wait a little, to see what Duncan and Ginobili do ( i.e. retire or not, or stay for a little while longer) first and then take care of Leonard. The guy was the Finals MVP. He's young. He's under team control. He's going to get paid and get his, he's just going to have to wait to let HOFer Duncan figure some things out first. The Knicks WILL NOT be getting Kawhi Leonard. It is NOT GOING TO HAPPEN. If the Spurs don't want him, they will trade him. But clearly they want him, they've invested YEARS into him, they are going to keep him. Many wings, far less talented and accomplished than Leonard have gotten paid, no reason that he won't.

4) The Triangle Offense is here to stay. HERE TO STAY. Right or wrong. Good or bad. Works or not. Zen Master got 60 million to show up and run things. As long as he's here, the Triangle is here. The damage to the franchise's credibility and perception ( even to as bad as that probably is right now) would be immense to ditch the Triangle after only a quarter of one season from a HOF coach with 11 rings who has used it exclusively for almost all of his coaching career.

5) Melo is a POWER FORWARD. He can't defend the wing position. The difference between a SF and a SG is a very thin blurry line. You are either a wing player or you are not. Melo is a 12 year NBA veteran. He's not getting younger and faster tomorrow. You can't contend if you can't defend and Melo cannot defend well period, but he would be torched nightly by the league's other shooting guards.

"Moving Melo to 2--fcking genius"

Did you actually pat yourself on the back when you typed this out?

Guess what Briggs, if Melo had value at the shooting guard position, the Knicks WOULD HAVE PUT HIM THERE ALREADY. You hear that. ALREADY. Did you imagine you magically unlocked some mythical roster move that a combined pedigree of SIXTEEN NBA championships ( Phil with 11 and Fish with five) could not figure out?

What you refuse to "accept" is that rebuilding a franchise and it's roster, takes time. IT LITERALLY TAKES TIME. It's not going to happen in two years. The Knicks are going to make some more mistakes, even elite franchises have misses under their belts. Rookies need time to develop. Teams need time together to jell and work as a unit. The Spurs didn't become the Spurs overnight.

You are looking for a quick fix when one just doesn't exist. This isn't just in the NBA, it's in all of pro sports. A rebuild takes time.

Briggs, you are a "wind tunnel" guy. If you had a truck and someone asked you how much mileage it gets to the gallon, you'd quote some happy horse **** that would only apply in a wind tunnel. If nothing was in the car. If it was brand new and perfectly tuned up and calibrated. Without the impact of real road conditions. IN A MOTHER FUCKING WIND TUNNEL.

Rebuilds in the NBA do not happen in ideal conditions. You don't have to believe me, just observe how the league actually works and operates. It's not some huge secret. When are you going to accept it Briggs?

The basic gist is if we need to play round with Carmelo positionally to help the team--we should do it. If Carmelo morphed into a version of Reggie Miller/Allan Houston--a guy who's jumpshot became the focus of his game--I could see that as he ages a bit. Hes a very good shooter and if he played SG he would be matched up with many guys who are 2-5 inches shorter--I can work with that mismatch. I'd like to build a MUCH bigger team--I wrote last night that I observed out of the 10 Spur players going last night--7 were 6-9 or taller. When someone says Melo cant play SG--why not? Boris Diaw plays center for goodness sakes. Its imperative to find a PG who can guard--that would help us right away. When you are able to pressure the ball--and then have size at all other positions--you make it harder on the other teams to score.

Can we get the 1st pick--well we will have the best shot in 20 years. We have a legit shot at it right? This will not be a .007 % chance this will be a +12% to 25%. The Knicks have 6 months for every contingency after that--then they will have certainty for over a month.

We have full free agency $$$ so we "should" be able to improve the team" and Im willing to over spend on a few players. On the flip side if I cant get who I want--Id rather use the cap space for an asset laden trade.(again an example is like taking Mcgeee maybe a youthful player and a pick) all contingencies are open so we walk away with value to improve the team.

While we are at the shts end here--we can have a positive approach to the problem--I think Melo should be seen as an asset and that its up to us to play him in position to the best of his abilities FOR THE TEAM best interests.