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I will say this about Calderon
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VCoug
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12/10/2014  11:21 AM
smackeddog wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
smackeddog wrote:Think of him as a $3mil back up for us- if we hadn't done the trade we would have been stuck with Feltons salary the next 2 years at $4.5mil each year. Deduct that from Jose's $7mil. So $2.5mil-$3mil for a backup PG who can shoot is okay. I was never a fan of his, but he could still be okay in the right role.

Yeah, it might have been an even deal if it was just a Felton-Calderon exchange. We take back triple the salary commitment but at least get a serviceable backup. (Still doesn't sound even when I type it out actually.) Including Tyson made the trade so ridiculous that everyone on Dallas message boards is still laughing at us.

What magical treasures would we honestly have got if we'd kept Tyson this season and moved him at the deadline when he was a pending free agent? Name some realistic possibilities. Plus Tyson beasting would have either resulted in: a) we win 30 something games and miss the playoffs but also end up with a non-lottery draft pick, or b) Tyson quits trying just like last season due to all the losing.

OKC is and always has been the most logical trade partner for Tyson. They have the assets we should have been looking for in any trade and a massive suck-hole at center in Kendrick Perkins. Cleveland is looking around the league for a center and they have a ton of assets. Phoenix could possibly be interested as well.

Now the joy of my world is in Zion How beautiful if nothing more Than to wait at Zion's door I've never been in love like this before Now let me pray to keep you from The perils that will surely come
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Splat
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12/10/2014  11:25 AM
smackeddog wrote:
VCoug wrote:
smackeddog wrote:Think of him as a $3mil back up for us- if we hadn't done the trade we would have been stuck with Feltons salary the next 2 years at $4.5mil each year. Deduct that from Jose's $7mil. So $2.5mil-$3mil for a backup PG who can shoot is okay. I was never a fan of his, but he could still be okay in the right role.

Felton only has one year left after this season; Calderon has two.

That 3rd year is kind of irrelevant- we'll be over the cap by then. $7mil expiring with the new monster cap in that third year should be moveable.

Sigh. I said that once. But having overpaid players at any price level is not so easy to move after all. I overestimated Jose's value by once saying he'd be movable if a contender needed another PG, but it really is not like that at all.

Saying an older player like Calderon is easy to move is just not true. Even if be is tradeable his true value means getting very little back for him. Having these kinds of contracts is a rusty treadmill or a leaky faucet or whatever faulty mechanical analogy fits.

I've got a fever and the only prescription is more cowbell!
Bonn1997
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12/10/2014  11:30 AM    LAST EDITED: 12/10/2014  11:31 AM
smackeddog wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
smackeddog wrote:Think of him as a $3mil back up for us- if we hadn't done the trade we would have been stuck with Feltons salary the next 2 years at $4.5mil each year. Deduct that from Jose's $7mil. So $2.5mil-$3mil for a backup PG who can shoot is okay. I was never a fan of his, but he could still be okay in the right role.

Yeah, it might have been an even deal if it was just a Felton-Calderon exchange. We take back triple the salary commitment but at least get a serviceable backup. (Still doesn't sound even when I type it out actually.) Including Tyson made the trade so ridiculous that everyone on Dallas message boards is still laughing at us.


What magical treasures would we honestly have got if we'd kept Tyson this season and moved him at the deadline when he was a pending free agent? Name some realistic possibilities. Plus Tyson beasting would have either resulted in: a) we win 30 something games and miss the playoffs but also end up with a non-lottery draft pick, or b) Tyson quits trying just like last season due to all the losing.

I'd rather have lost Tyson for nothing than taken back triple the salary commitment at the PG position. Obviously, I have no way of knowing what other teams would give up for him now but he has a good shot at being an all-star again, and all-stars or even borderline ones with expiring contracts usually have good trade value.
30 something wins is ridiculous. Whenever Melo and Tyson played well (even without Amare playing well), we were around a .550 or better team.
VCoug
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12/10/2014  11:31 AM
smackeddog wrote:
VCoug wrote:
smackeddog wrote:Think of him as a $3mil back up for us- if we hadn't done the trade we would have been stuck with Feltons salary the next 2 years at $4.5mil each year. Deduct that from Jose's $7mil. So $2.5mil-$3mil for a backup PG who can shoot is okay. I was never a fan of his, but he could still be okay in the right role.

Felton only has one year left after this season; Calderon has two.

That 3rd year is kind of irrelevant- we'll be over the cap by then. $7mil expiring with the new monster cap in that third year should be moveable.

No we won't be unless we resign one of our own free agents next Summer to some huge deal which I don't see happening. This Summer we're going to at least attempt to spend up to the salary cap but in order to do that we'll have to waive our Bird rights at least to Amare and Bargnani so we won't be able to go over the cap to resign them. Our only upcoming free agent I could see us possibly going over the cap to resign is Shumpert but his cap hold is going to be a little over $7M anyway and we'd have to offer him a contract more than that in order to go over the cap.

Now the joy of my world is in Zion How beautiful if nothing more Than to wait at Zion's door I've never been in love like this before Now let me pray to keep you from The perils that will surely come
smackeddog
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12/10/2014  11:32 AM
Bonn1997 wrote:
smackeddog wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
smackeddog wrote:Think of him as a $3mil back up for us- if we hadn't done the trade we would have been stuck with Feltons salary the next 2 years at $4.5mil each year. Deduct that from Jose's $7mil. So $2.5mil-$3mil for a backup PG who can shoot is okay. I was never a fan of his, but he could still be okay in the right role.

Yeah, it might have been an even deal if it was just a Felton-Calderon exchange. We take back triple the salary commitment but at least get a serviceable backup. (Still doesn't sound even when I type it out actually.) Including Tyson made the trade so ridiculous that everyone on Dallas message boards is still laughing at us.


What magical treasures would we honestly have got if we'd kept Tyson this season and moved him at the deadline when he was a pending free agent? Name some realistic possibilities. Plus Tyson beasting would have either resulted in: a) we win 30 something games and miss the playoffs but also end up with a non-lottery draft pick, or b) Tyson quits trying just like last season due to all the losing.

I'd rather have lost Tyson for nothing than taken back triple the salary commitment at the PG position. Obviously, I have no way of knowing what other teams would give up for him now but he has a good shot at being an all-star again, and all-stars or even borderline ones with expiring contracts usually have good trade value.

We didn't take back triple- we gave up Felton, so we only added $3mil each season- thats what you'd pay for a back up PG in free agency.
smackeddog
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12/10/2014  11:32 AM
Hmm- maybe I'd try to trade Calderon plus a scrap for Lance Stephenson, if I felt like taking a risk
Bonn1997
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12/10/2014  11:34 AM
smackeddog wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
smackeddog wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
smackeddog wrote:Think of him as a $3mil back up for us- if we hadn't done the trade we would have been stuck with Feltons salary the next 2 years at $4.5mil each year. Deduct that from Jose's $7mil. So $2.5mil-$3mil for a backup PG who can shoot is okay. I was never a fan of his, but he could still be okay in the right role.

Yeah, it might have been an even deal if it was just a Felton-Calderon exchange. We take back triple the salary commitment but at least get a serviceable backup. (Still doesn't sound even when I type it out actually.) Including Tyson made the trade so ridiculous that everyone on Dallas message boards is still laughing at us.


What magical treasures would we honestly have got if we'd kept Tyson this season and moved him at the deadline when he was a pending free agent? Name some realistic possibilities. Plus Tyson beasting would have either resulted in: a) we win 30 something games and miss the playoffs but also end up with a non-lottery draft pick, or b) Tyson quits trying just like last season due to all the losing.

I'd rather have lost Tyson for nothing than taken back triple the salary commitment at the PG position. Obviously, I have no way of knowing what other teams would give up for him now but he has a good shot at being an all-star again, and all-stars or even borderline ones with expiring contracts usually have good trade value.

We didn't take back triple- we gave up Felton, so we only added $3mil each season- thats what you'd pay for a back up PG in free agency.

It's also a year longer. It's about $9 vs. 22 mil owed as of the date of the trade.
smackeddog
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12/10/2014  11:35 AM
Bonn1997 wrote:
smackeddog wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
smackeddog wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
smackeddog wrote:Think of him as a $3mil back up for us- if we hadn't done the trade we would have been stuck with Feltons salary the next 2 years at $4.5mil each year. Deduct that from Jose's $7mil. So $2.5mil-$3mil for a backup PG who can shoot is okay. I was never a fan of his, but he could still be okay in the right role.

Yeah, it might have been an even deal if it was just a Felton-Calderon exchange. We take back triple the salary commitment but at least get a serviceable backup. (Still doesn't sound even when I type it out actually.) Including Tyson made the trade so ridiculous that everyone on Dallas message boards is still laughing at us.


What magical treasures would we honestly have got if we'd kept Tyson this season and moved him at the deadline when he was a pending free agent? Name some realistic possibilities. Plus Tyson beasting would have either resulted in: a) we win 30 something games and miss the playoffs but also end up with a non-lottery draft pick, or b) Tyson quits trying just like last season due to all the losing.

I'd rather have lost Tyson for nothing than taken back triple the salary commitment at the PG position. Obviously, I have no way of knowing what other teams would give up for him now but he has a good shot at being an all-star again, and all-stars or even borderline ones with expiring contracts usually have good trade value.

We didn't take back triple- we gave up Felton, so we only added $3mil each season- thats what you'd pay for a back up PG in free agency.

It's also a year longer. It's about $9 vs. 22 mil owed as of the date of the trade.

You're talking $7mil extra in the third year, by which point we're over the cap anyways
Bonn1997
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12/10/2014  11:44 AM    LAST EDITED: 12/10/2014  11:45 AM
smackeddog wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
smackeddog wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
smackeddog wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
smackeddog wrote:Think of him as a $3mil back up for us- if we hadn't done the trade we would have been stuck with Feltons salary the next 2 years at $4.5mil each year. Deduct that from Jose's $7mil. So $2.5mil-$3mil for a backup PG who can shoot is okay. I was never a fan of his, but he could still be okay in the right role.

Yeah, it might have been an even deal if it was just a Felton-Calderon exchange. We take back triple the salary commitment but at least get a serviceable backup. (Still doesn't sound even when I type it out actually.) Including Tyson made the trade so ridiculous that everyone on Dallas message boards is still laughing at us.


What magical treasures would we honestly have got if we'd kept Tyson this season and moved him at the deadline when he was a pending free agent? Name some realistic possibilities. Plus Tyson beasting would have either resulted in: a) we win 30 something games and miss the playoffs but also end up with a non-lottery draft pick, or b) Tyson quits trying just like last season due to all the losing.

I'd rather have lost Tyson for nothing than taken back triple the salary commitment at the PG position. Obviously, I have no way of knowing what other teams would give up for him now but he has a good shot at being an all-star again, and all-stars or even borderline ones with expiring contracts usually have good trade value.

We didn't take back triple- we gave up Felton, so we only added $3mil each season- thats what you'd pay for a back up PG in free agency.

It's also a year longer. It's about $9 vs. 22 mil owed as of the date of the trade.

You're talking $7mil extra in the third year, by which point we're over the cap anyways


Maybe we will, maybe we won't be over the cap but there's no such thing as an irrelevant salary commitment. Or maybe we'd be over the cap but not over the luxury tax without Calderon, which would have meant the MLE rather than mini-MLE would be available. Good organizations don't take back pointless salary commitments just because they might be over the cap anyway.
VCoug
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12/10/2014  11:54 AM
Bonn1997 wrote:
smackeddog wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
smackeddog wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
smackeddog wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
smackeddog wrote:Think of him as a $3mil back up for us- if we hadn't done the trade we would have been stuck with Feltons salary the next 2 years at $4.5mil each year. Deduct that from Jose's $7mil. So $2.5mil-$3mil for a backup PG who can shoot is okay. I was never a fan of his, but he could still be okay in the right role.

Yeah, it might have been an even deal if it was just a Felton-Calderon exchange. We take back triple the salary commitment but at least get a serviceable backup. (Still doesn't sound even when I type it out actually.) Including Tyson made the trade so ridiculous that everyone on Dallas message boards is still laughing at us.


What magical treasures would we honestly have got if we'd kept Tyson this season and moved him at the deadline when he was a pending free agent? Name some realistic possibilities. Plus Tyson beasting would have either resulted in: a) we win 30 something games and miss the playoffs but also end up with a non-lottery draft pick, or b) Tyson quits trying just like last season due to all the losing.

I'd rather have lost Tyson for nothing than taken back triple the salary commitment at the PG position. Obviously, I have no way of knowing what other teams would give up for him now but he has a good shot at being an all-star again, and all-stars or even borderline ones with expiring contracts usually have good trade value.

We didn't take back triple- we gave up Felton, so we only added $3mil each season- thats what you'd pay for a back up PG in free agency.

It's also a year longer. It's about $9 vs. 22 mil owed as of the date of the trade.

You're talking $7mil extra in the third year, by which point we're over the cap anyways


Maybe we will, maybe we won't be over the cap but there's no such thing as an irrelevant salary commitment. Or maybe we'd be over the cap but not over the luxury tax without Calderon, which would have meant the MLE rather than mini-MLE would be available. Good organizations don't take back pointless salary commitments just because they might be over the cap anyway.

We almost certainly won't be over the cap unless we trade for longer contracts. We'll go under the cap this Summer and waive our Bird rights to all our free agents except for Shumpert who will have a cap hold of around $7M. So we'll be able to spend up to the cap minus $7M. We could go over the cap to resign Shumpert at that point but I don't think he'll get much more than $7M. Then, when the cap jumps next Summer we'll be under the cap again.

Now the joy of my world is in Zion How beautiful if nothing more Than to wait at Zion's door I've never been in love like this before Now let me pray to keep you from The perils that will surely come
smackeddog
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12/10/2014  11:57 AM
Bonn1997 wrote:
smackeddog wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
smackeddog wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
smackeddog wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
smackeddog wrote:Think of him as a $3mil back up for us- if we hadn't done the trade we would have been stuck with Feltons salary the next 2 years at $4.5mil each year. Deduct that from Jose's $7mil. So $2.5mil-$3mil for a backup PG who can shoot is okay. I was never a fan of his, but he could still be okay in the right role.

Yeah, it might have been an even deal if it was just a Felton-Calderon exchange. We take back triple the salary commitment but at least get a serviceable backup. (Still doesn't sound even when I type it out actually.) Including Tyson made the trade so ridiculous that everyone on Dallas message boards is still laughing at us.


What magical treasures would we honestly have got if we'd kept Tyson this season and moved him at the deadline when he was a pending free agent? Name some realistic possibilities. Plus Tyson beasting would have either resulted in: a) we win 30 something games and miss the playoffs but also end up with a non-lottery draft pick, or b) Tyson quits trying just like last season due to all the losing.

I'd rather have lost Tyson for nothing than taken back triple the salary commitment at the PG position. Obviously, I have no way of knowing what other teams would give up for him now but he has a good shot at being an all-star again, and all-stars or even borderline ones with expiring contracts usually have good trade value.

We didn't take back triple- we gave up Felton, so we only added $3mil each season- thats what you'd pay for a back up PG in free agency.

It's also a year longer. It's about $9 vs. 22 mil owed as of the date of the trade.

You're talking $7mil extra in the third year, by which point we're over the cap anyways


Maybe we will, maybe we won't be over the cap but there's no such thing as an irrelevant salary commitment. Or maybe we'd be over the cap but not over the luxury tax without Calderon, which would have meant the MLE rather than mini-MLE would be available. Good organizations don't take back pointless salary commitments just because they might be over the cap anyway.

I kind of agree, but I guess the point I'm making is that the trade is not as disastrous as you are making out, and the upside of holding onto Tyson was not as great as you think. I think at best we might have got a late 1st rounder. I'd like to see how our 2 2nd rounders work out before I judge the trade. Still pissed off we didn't pick up Larkins option- now we can't trade him for anything or keep him.
RonRon
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12/11/2014  1:02 PM    LAST EDITED: 12/11/2014  1:02 PM
Think Calderon needs to play next to a strong combo guard or big PG
His ability to shoot at a high rate and be a 2nd ball handler is his strength


for example


Westbrook
John Wall


Olindpo
Lance Stephenson
NardDogNation
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12/11/2014  1:16 PM
VCoug wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
mreinman wrote:He would be a nice player if we had a really PG to play with him.

That's a joke, right? What good is getting a PG if he needs another PG to be on the court with him!

knicks1248 wrote:funny how 6 months ago he was the starting pg on a team that gave the spurs the most trouble.

Bad culture will turn good players into trash..


but that team is much better off without him.

I don't think that's quite fair to Calderon. I think it's less that Dallas is better off without Calderon as much as they're better off with Tyson.

Bonn1997 wrote:It's early but everything Phil has done has been a disaster so far. I'm starting to think he's just going to draft the next Kwame Brown or Eddy Curry.

He really has been. My big fear is that he sends our first round pick to LAL in a package for Kobe this Summer.

That's been worrying me as well. Fortunately, I do think that Kobe is genuine in his public declarations in favor of being a Laker. If that changes though, I just hope that Phil at least allows us to remain in the draft by swapping picks. If we get the no.1 overall pick and the Lakers end up no.5-8 like predicted, it makes it a little bareable....stupid but still bareable.
NardDogNation
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12/11/2014  1:18 PM
VCoug wrote:
NardDogNation wrote:
holfresh wrote:
VCoug wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:funny how 6 months ago he was the starting pg on a team that gave the spurs the most trouble.

Bad culture will turn good players into trash..

He was only 4th in minutes and 11th in USG%; Monta Ellis was the primary ball handler on that team. I honestly like Calderon but as a role player, not as the 2nd or 3rd best player on a team. He isn't, if he ever was, one of the 15 best PG in the league.

He isn't the 2nd or 3rd best PG on this team much less top 15 in the league...

Has he really been that bad? I haven't been keeping up with the games because of school and a sense of indifference but I have a hard time believing that Larkin and Prigioni are better than him.

I would say Prigioni has been better, but I love Prigioni and think he's been the best PG on the team since he got here and probably the best we've had since Mark Jackson. Larkin hasn't been much of anything other than a 10-15 mpg backup; I would say Calderon's been better than him just on the basis of his 3pt shooting.

I've been a big Prigioni fan myself. He did himself a disservice by waiting so long to come to the NBA. I think he could've been a know player had he done so.
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12/11/2014  1:19 PM
Calderon is good as a role player, he just needs to play next to a strong guard, which we don't have right now. He should be playing mostly off the ball. We finally have a guy that shoots consistently from 3 and can kill teams that way, but he is a role player who won't be appreciated until he has the right guys around him. We don't need to trade him. We need more high-efficiency shot makers, not less.
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12/11/2014  1:27 PM
Knixkik wrote:Calderon is good as a role player, he just needs to play next to a strong guard, which we don't have right now. He should be playing mostly off the ball. We finally have a guy that shoots consistently from 3 and can kill teams that way, but he is a role player who won't be appreciated until he has the right guys around him. We don't need to trade him. We need more high-efficiency shot makers, not less.

I can see where Calderon can fit that type of role..But his salary if a killer if we are looking to add two pieces next to Melo..
BRIGGS
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12/11/2014  1:27 PM
Knixkik wrote:Calderon is good as a role player, he just needs to play next to a strong guard, which we don't have right now. He should be playing mostly off the ball. We finally have a guy that shoots consistently from 3 and can kill teams that way, but he is a role player who won't be appreciated until he has the right guys around him. We don't need to trade him. We need more high-efficiency shot makers, not less.

This was a stupid stupid stupid move. This was a double as we added a player we dont need/want and we took out material cap space going 4wrd. He's only getting older and it seems as if he is showing that aging now. You're right he s a 12 minute role player off the bench.

RIP Crushalot😞
Splat
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12/11/2014  1:36 PM
Jose is a $7M a year player who is the 10th man in the rotation on a good team. What a value.
I've got a fever and the only prescription is more cowbell!
smackeddog
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12/11/2014  1:46 PM
Splat wrote:Jose is a $7M a year player who is the 10th man in the rotation on a good team. What a value.

For the last time, deduct Feltons salary from that figure. He's a $3mil a year player- thats okay for what he is.
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12/11/2014  2:09 PM
smackeddog wrote:
Splat wrote:Jose is a $7M a year player who is the 10th man in the rotation on a good team. What a value.

For the last time, deduct Feltons salary from that figure. He's a $3mil a year player- thats okay for what he is.

while i understand i think what you are saying (hes only 3 mil more than feltons cap hit), the guy is paid 7 and he counts as 7 and he isnt worth it. they are not deducting what felton would have been paid on the cap.

GO TEAM VENTURE!!!!!
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