Knicks1969 wrote:

Splat wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:There really is not much to talk about with the way the season has been going for the knicks so the only relevant topic is how to improve the team going forward. What are some of the similarities between the good/great teams that have competed for championships over the years and how can the Knicks build a roster similar within the framework of their systematic beliefs and Cap space. What we know is that Carmelo has a no trade clause so any ideas/suggestions of trading him would be silly but everyone else is probably on the trade table.

All over this board I see post for two way players but who exactly is considered a two way player? Will these 2way players be available in FA or had through a trade. I would like to get into creating categories of players and maybe even sub-categories within position: Rebounders, drivers, shooters, Bigs, wings, ball handlers, low usg/high usg players, and etc.

The knicks do have a draft pick this year so that is another piece to puzzle to figure out.

Talent on defense is not required. Willingness to play it is. When people say the league has few 2-way players, there is no reply to such a comment since it is the org's job to recruit willing and able defenders. There is no excuse. If the org is committed and builds the right culture eventually the majority of the roster will play defense willingly and TOGETHER while still having their other various skill sets.

I don't think it requires sub-categories at all. It is a driven by the franchise's imperatives to find and develop coachable players, something that has not been a priority here for 15 years.

They found Wear. One itty bitty player, but you keep looking for guys who are teachable.

And you don't sign any more Amare and Melo types. Having Melo is plenty in the dumb star category.

Dude, I disagree. You have to have both (talent and willingness)

You know what I meant. Yes, defensive ability is something you can scout for and value specifically, but the mindset collectively is formed by building a roster of like-minded players whatever their particular defensive talents. Generally speaking, the higher IQ players are going to value defense, so it goes hand in hand that building with players who have a grasp of fundamentals will give you a higher overall IQ and a competitive team defense.

Splat wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:There really is not much to talk about with the way the season has been going for the knicks so the only relevant topic is how to improve the team going forward. What are some of the similarities between the good/great teams that have competed for championships over the years and how can the Knicks build a roster similar within the framework of their systematic beliefs and Cap space. What we know is that Carmelo has a no trade clause so any ideas/suggestions of trading him would be silly but everyone else is probably on the trade table.

All over this board I see post for two way players but who exactly is considered a two way player? Will these 2way players be available in FA or had through a trade. I would like to get into creating categories of players and maybe even sub-categories within position: Rebounders, drivers, shooters, Bigs, wings, ball handlers, low usg/high usg players, and etc.

The knicks do have a draft pick this year so that is another piece to puzzle to figure out.

Talent on defense is not required. Willingness to play it is. When people say the league has few 2-way players, there is no reply to such a comment since it is the org's job to recruit willing and able defenders. There is no excuse. If the org is committed and builds the right culture eventually the majority of the roster will play defense willingly and TOGETHER while still having their other various skill sets.

I don't think it requires sub-categories at all. It is a driven by the franchise's imperatives to find and develop coachable players, something that has not been a priority here for 15 years.

They found Wear. One itty bitty player, but you keep looking for guys who are teachable.

And you don't sign any more Amare and Melo types. Having Melo is plenty in the dumb star category.

CrushAlot wrote:

Splat wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:There really is not much to talk about with the way the season has been going for the knicks so the only relevant topic is how to improve the team going forward. What are some of the similarities between the good/great teams that have competed for championships over the years and how can the Knicks build a roster similar within the framework of their systematic beliefs and Cap space. What we know is that Carmelo has a no trade clause so any ideas/suggestions of trading him would be silly but everyone else is probably on the trade table.

All over this board I see post for two way players but who exactly is considered a two way player? Will these 2way players be available in FA or had through a trade. I would like to get into creating categories of players and maybe even sub-categories within position: Rebounders, drivers, shooters, Bigs, wings, ball handlers, low usg/high usg players, and etc.

The knicks do have a draft pick this year so that is another piece to puzzle to figure out.

Talent on defense is not required. Willingness to play it is. When people say the league has few 2-way players, there is no reply to such a comment since it is the org's job to recruit willing and able defenders. There is no excuse. If the org is committed and builds the right culture eventually the majority of the roster will play defense willingly and TOGETHER while still having their other various skill sets.

I don't think it requires sub-categories at all. It is a driven by the franchise's imperatives to find and develop coachable players, something that has not been a priority here for 15 years.

They found Wear. One itty bitty player, but you keep looking for guys who are teachable.

And you don't sign any more Amare and Melo types. Having Melo is plenty in the dumb star category.

Looking for more undrafted free agents like Wear and less players like Carmelo and Amare? Sounds like a good team playing at the county center.

No, you're right. Let's re-sign Amare and keep this winning core intact.

Knicks1969 wrote:

Splat wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:There really is not much to talk about with the way the season has been going for the knicks so the only relevant topic is how to improve the team going forward. What are some of the similarities between the good/great teams that have competed for championships over the years and how can the Knicks build a roster similar within the framework of their systematic beliefs and Cap space. What we know is that Carmelo has a no trade clause so any ideas/suggestions of trading him would be silly but everyone else is probably on the trade table.

All over this board I see post for two way players but who exactly is considered a two way player? Will these 2way players be available in FA or had through a trade. I would like to get into creating categories of players and maybe even sub-categories within position: Rebounders, drivers, shooters, Bigs, wings, ball handlers, low usg/high usg players, and etc.

The knicks do have a draft pick this year so that is another piece to puzzle to figure out.

Talent on defense is not required. Willingness to play it is. When people say the league has few 2-way players, there is no reply to such a comment since it is the org's job to recruit willing and able defenders. There is no excuse. If the org is committed and builds the right culture eventually the majority of the roster will play defense willingly and TOGETHER while still having their other various skill sets.

I don't think it requires sub-categories at all. It is a driven by the franchise's imperatives to find and develop coachable players, something that has not been a priority here for 15 years.

They found Wear. One itty bitty player, but you keep looking for guys who are teachable.

And you don't sign any more Amare and Melo types. Having Melo is plenty in the dumb star category.

Dude, I disagree. You have to have both (talent and willingness)

and I assume that you believe that Timmy Dee fits that desc?

Splat wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

Splat wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:There really is not much to talk about with the way the season has been going for the knicks so the only relevant topic is how to improve the team going forward. What are some of the similarities between the good/great teams that have competed for championships over the years and how can the Knicks build a roster similar within the framework of their systematic beliefs and Cap space. What we know is that Carmelo has a no trade clause so any ideas/suggestions of trading him would be silly but everyone else is probably on the trade table.

All over this board I see post for two way players but who exactly is considered a two way player? Will these 2way players be available in FA or had through a trade. I would like to get into creating categories of players and maybe even sub-categories within position: Rebounders, drivers, shooters, Bigs, wings, ball handlers, low usg/high usg players, and etc.

The knicks do have a draft pick this year so that is another piece to puzzle to figure out.

Talent on defense is not required. Willingness to play it is. When people say the league has few 2-way players, there is no reply to such a comment since it is the org's job to recruit willing and able defenders. There is no excuse. If the org is committed and builds the right culture eventually the majority of the roster will play defense willingly and TOGETHER while still having their other various skill sets.

I don't think it requires sub-categories at all. It is a driven by the franchise's imperatives to find and develop coachable players, something that has not been a priority here for 15 years.

They found Wear. One itty bitty player, but you keep looking for guys who are teachable.

And you don't sign any more Amare and Melo types. Having Melo is plenty in the dumb star category.

Looking for more undrafted free agents like Wear and less players like Carmelo and Amare? Sounds like a good team playing at the county center.

No, you're right. Let's re-sign Amare and keep this winning core intact.

CrushAlot wrote:

Splat wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

Splat wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:There really is not much to talk about with the way the season has been going for the knicks so the only relevant topic is how to improve the team going forward. What are some of the similarities between the good/great teams that have competed for championships over the years and how can the Knicks build a roster similar within the framework of their systematic beliefs and Cap space. What we know is that Carmelo has a no trade clause so any ideas/suggestions of trading him would be silly but everyone else is probably on the trade table.

All over this board I see post for two way players but who exactly is considered a two way player? Will these 2way players be available in FA or had through a trade. I would like to get into creating categories of players and maybe even sub-categories within position: Rebounders, drivers, shooters, Bigs, wings, ball handlers, low usg/high usg players, and etc.

The knicks do have a draft pick this year so that is another piece to puzzle to figure out.

Talent on defense is not required. Willingness to play it is. When people say the league has few 2-way players, there is no reply to such a comment since it is the org's job to recruit willing and able defenders. There is no excuse. If the org is committed and builds the right culture eventually the majority of the roster will play defense willingly and TOGETHER while still having their other various skill sets.

I don't think it requires sub-categories at all. It is a driven by the franchise's imperatives to find and develop coachable players, something that has not been a priority here for 15 years.

They found Wear. One itty bitty player, but you keep looking for guys who are teachable.

And you don't sign any more Amare and Melo types. Having Melo is plenty in the dumb star category.

Looking for more undrafted free agents like Wear and less players like Carmelo and Amare? Sounds like a good team playing at the county center.

No, you're right. Let's re-sign Amare and keep this winning core intact.

There is a huge player pool for your new winning formula.
http://dleague.nba.com/

My rebuttal simply incorporated your logic. By your reasoning, re-signing Amare is a top strategy and keeps our winning core intact. That is your logic, is it not?

And I have no problem with getting players from the D-League. It is one of several sources of players, not the sole avenue.

CrushAlot wrote:

Splat wrote:And I have no problem with getting players from the D-League. It is one of several sources of players, not the sole avenue.

I never suggested resigning amare but you need star players to win. Amare was one and Melo is one. Wear is a nice find. Maybe he becomes something. Finding a guy like Wear where you didnt use a second round pick to get him is a plus. But you need stars to win. There us a huge pool of potential 14-15th men on a bench in the d league.

That is what cap room is for, signing a proven player. That is one of the other avenues. It is not like we are on opposite wavelengths here. But another top signing or star has to be more savvy in terms of building a team with some grasp of the fundamentals. Melo is not the sharpest tool in the shed, so you can't afford to allocate your resources to a combo like Melo plus Amare. It doesn't produce winning basketball.

The myth that you can surround those two with better talent and win is backwards. They cannot lead by example, so you need to elevate their basketball game. They elevate nothing. They are all about individual effort.

So we have Melo. Melo will have to be the extra juice that gets you over the top. The cherry on top so to speak. It is an azzbackwards way to build a team, but Melo is not a fundamentals or leadership guy, so you really need to focus on supplying those elements elsewhere.

Then, by virtue of having a collective force of leadership and fundamental ballers take over the culture, Melo has to go along and play his best in the context of good execution, teamwork, ball movement and team defense.

I've made no bones with cooperative Melo. I've seen him move the ball and mostly shoot quickly in rhythm. And that guy can be wicked effective. To have that guy though, you need the kind of players who will induce that compliance from him, because otherwise he regresses in a matter of minutes to the other Melo who won't win you much.

So let's not add another Amare-caliber intellect to the mix next go-around is all I'm saying. It leads nowhere.

Whether we can get those kinds of players with enough talent and in sufficient numbers is a big question mark. But it is the ONLY path to success on a Melo team. The idea you can plunk down your trade dollars on the table and acquire two hotshots, put them next to him and you're a contender is pure nonsense. It will never work.

The true downside here is simply the clock ticking. Can they assemble a real roster in the next two years and get real value out of Melo? I don't know. Landing Gasol would register on the richter scale. Outside of that, I see no max players who will carry Melo in their wake on the horizon. None of this is going to be easy. But add another expensive Amare type player who is all effort and no brains will sink this ship for good.

For instance, let's look into calling up a Chicago to see if guys like Cameron Bairstow and E'Twaun Moore could be had in a trade. Maybe they would want one or some of our younger players. Call up Atlanta about Mike Muscala; Denver about Erick Green; Philly about some of their young talent (Covington, Daives, Hollis Thompson); New Orleans about Luke Babbitt, Jeff Whithey, Russ Smith; Detroit about Tony Mitchell & Spencer Dinwiddle with the idea of waiting for Dinwiddle until he's fully healthy -- stuff like that. Shake up the underbelly a little bit. Try to up the talent level from where we currently are. If we trade a guy like Shump or THJ and then need a 2G replacement, look at a guy like Elliott Williams who's playing very well in the NBDL (looks like the Williams of old pre injuries). If we traded a Shane Larkin, sign Kalin Lucas for the rest of the year. Minor shakeup-type stuff like that, looking for a diamond(s) in the rough... At the same time, tank it out and get the best pick we can in next summer's draft...What else can we do at this point??

Only other thing: think long and hard about moving Melo by the deadline. I know that's a complete 180° in our thinking but hey, things change...Something to consider. Only thing is that ship might've already sailed -- a lot of interested teams had big expiring pieces to deal that have since been amnestied -- Boozer, Scola, etc...Much more difficult to pull off now but I wouldn't close the book on it. Explore it. Explore all options available to us.

Splat wrote:

Finestrg wrote:About the best thing we can do right now is evaluate--I'll talking REALLY EVALUTE--our younger players. Aldrich, THJ, Shumpert, Larkin, Wear, Early when he makes it back, Acy, call up Langston Galloway & Thanasis at some point, Richard Howell if he does come to Westchester soon...Give all of these guys ample time and freedom to take shots and look for their own offense. Give THJ ample shots, esp. with JR out with the flu, and see if he can shoot his way back into it and up his confidence which looks shot right now...Either that or, if we don't have any real faith in our own youngsters, maybe we look to make some minor deals to shake up the youth and talent. Look for upside and potential. Look for guys that currently have small roles/non-existent roles on their current teams that could have larger roles here in NY. Small moves to help build a brighter future.

For instance, let's look into calling up a Chicago to see if guys like Cameron Bairstow and E'Twaun Moore could be had in a trade. Maybe they would want one or some of our younger players. Call up Atlanta about Mike Muscala; Denver about Erick Green; Philly about some of their young talent (Covington, Daives, Hollis Thompson); New Orleans about Luke Babbitt, Jeff Whithey, Russ Smith; Detroit about Tony Mitchell & Spencer Dinwiddle with the idea of waiting for Dinwiddle until he's fully healthy -- stuff like that. Shake up the underbelly a little bit. Try to up the talent level from where we currently are. If we trade a guy like Shump or THJ and then need a 2G replacement, look at a guy like Elliott Williams who's playing very well in the NBDL (looks like the Williams of old pre injuries). If we traded a Shane Larkin, sign Kalin Lucas for the rest of the year. Minor shakeup-type stuff like that, looking for a diamond(s) in the rough... At the same time, tank it out and get the best pick we can in next summer's draft...What else can we do at this point??

Only other thing: think long and hard about moving Melo by the deadline. I know that's a complete 180° in our thinking but hey, things change...Something to consider. Only thing is that ship might've already sailed -- a lot of interested teams had big expiring pieces to deal that have since been amnestied -- Boozer, Scola, etc...Much more difficult to pull off now but I wouldn't close the book on it. Explore it. Explore all options available to us.

Who knows? Maybe Melo would agree. I mean he locked in his paycheck. He couldn't have secured that anywhere else. Now he's free to play somewhere else if he agrees to it. Might even become plausible if he can't deal with the heat from losing.

He doesn't care how much fans and media criticize him. It was a major theme of the documentary. Remember he is bulletproof. That's where he is different than Marbury who would succumbed to criticism. Melo will be ok with just collecting his money and putting up his usual numbers to continue to support his brand

Carmelo is not like that in my opinion. He is good at what he does. He is a little lazy and has yet to show that he is a leader. He is not vocal and rarely ever confront any of his teammates. He worries a hell of a lot about the adulation he receives; as such, he wants to play Mr. Nice guy. Can he be better? I think so. Phil was right by saying that Carmelo has another level that he still can reach. That level is LEADERSHIP

If the knicks are able to get Harris then they need to get Asik. They would need a quality rebounding and rim protecting big regardless of his mid range ability