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Would You Do A Full Rebuild?
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StarksEwing1
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11/22/2014  2:43 PM
CrushAlot wrote:
StarksEwing1 wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:The Knicks don't have the picks to do a full rebuild. Hopefully the current approach of trying to develop second round picks, undrafted rookie free agents and using the d league effectively gets the Knicks some rotation players for cheap. Other than that I think they need to do well with their pick this summer and in free agency. I do like that Phil has said he would like to bring in a couple of players and not go for one big signing.
thats fine but this is why i hope for a top 3 pick since this year is most likely lost anyway
Not sure the year is lost but it is going south quickly. A top 3 pick would do wonders to help the Knicks.

we are both very optimistic but this year isnt gonna be good especially when we play tougher teams. Believe ir or not our schedule has been easy and we still lose lol
AUTOADVERT
Splat
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11/22/2014  2:46 PM
NardDogNation wrote:
Butler's a nice player but he can't be the cornerstone of your franchise if you're a contender. I said in a previous thread that he'll have the chance to challenge for an all-star berth in the future but let's not get carried away with his ceiling. Guys like Mo Williams and Jameer Nelson were all-stars but I don't think anyone would've ever considered them to be legitimate building blocks for a contender; same deal as Tayshaun Prince who was always under consideration. Butler is a cog guy and when you're comparing him to Melo, Melo wins out every time. More importantly, to get the salaries to match, the Bulls would have to include Derrick Rose's contract aka Mr. I Don't Play If I'm Hurting and I've Been Injuried for Nearly Two Full Seasons. That is no easy cookie to swallow, so there needs to be compensation for giving up one of the leagues best scorers and most marketable talents in the league.

You're talking rebuild, thus trading Melo does not need to bring back a franchise player, just good players and/or assets.

Again, saying Melo is this or that, thus we get get back this or that is not all that relevant. We are the ones who boxed ourselves into the corner. We will have to wear a chit eating grin to do any trades regarding Melo, because no GM is going to give us fair value. Don't forget, they would be assuming a guy with a no-trade clause so as soon as he is on their team, they're stuck with him too. So we have to take dimes on the dollars. That's business folks!

I've got a fever and the only prescription is more cowbell!
NardDogNation
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11/22/2014  2:54 PM
CrushAlot wrote:The Knicks don't have the picks to do a full rebuild. Hopefully the current approach of trying to develop second round picks, undrafted rookie free agents and using the d league effectively gets the Knicks some rotation players for cheap. Other than that I think they need to do well with their pick this summer and in free agency. I do like that Phil has said he would like to bring in a couple of players and not go for one big signing.

No, we don't necessary have all our picks but the purpose of trading Melo is to acquire enough young players to fill that void. If Jimmy Butler, Nikola Mirotic and Doug McDermott were in the 2015, isn't it a safe bet to say that they'd all be lottery picks? Those three guys are younger than 24, have shown to be pretty good and stand to get better in the future. I don't think Jimmy Butler or McDermott are cornerstone type players but I definitely think Mirotic is and if you combine him with a Jahlil Okafor from this draft, you have two guys that can be the face of your franchise. That isn't bad considering what we started this season with.

NardDogNation
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11/22/2014  2:59 PM
StarksEwing1 wrote:
NardDogNation wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
IronWillGiroud wrote:

YOU NEVER GO FULL REBUILD IN NEW YORK!

You just stay at .400 without improving the future!
If we were going to rebuild, we shouldn't have re-signed Melo. Nard - He has a no-trade clause now

But you don't think he'd waive the clause to play as an alpha-dog with a contender? I know this trade has almost no chance of happening as described but we need to consider cutting the chord on this one. We've wasted Melo's prime and there just doesn't seem to be any silver lining in keeping around. I suspect that he knows that now as well. So why not lobby for the chance to play with the Bulls in some iteration or another?

first off we didnt waste melos prime because lets be honest the only way melo would have won here is if we had another guy who was a better overall player like lebron or durant. Melo played on some good denver teams and they never really got past round 1

Really dude? Guys like past-his-prime Baron Davis, Mike Bibby, Bill Walker, Jared Jefferies, Steve Novak and the like were major rotation players with Melo the past few years. Mind telling me where they are right now? Because save for Novak, it certainly isn't in the league and they were Knicks just 2 seasons or so ago. Give Melo passable talent and he'll help you win. If Dirk Nowitzki could get a title, Melo certainly can himself.

NardDogNation
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11/22/2014  3:04 PM
Splat wrote:
NardDogNation wrote:
Splat wrote:I'd say yes, except we screwed that up by not doing it earlier. Now we have him paid more than any club is likely to take on as a salary burden. If other clubs see him as a piece, but not their foundation, then asking them to take on a franchise player sized salary is probably asking for too much. Perhaps if we had gotten Melo to agree to $100M as part of a sign and trade deal, that might have worked out, but I'm afraid it might be impossible now. And if he become injured, his salary looks like a joke to the league, so I think the Knicks boxed themselves into a corner on this one, particularly since Melo has to consent to any trade and that could kill anything that is cooked up.

I think that is a somewhat valid point but do you think that it should be moderated by the fact that the Bulls are dumping Derrick Rose? I think it's becoming pretty that he is this generation's Anfernee Hardaway and will never fulfill his potential due to injury. On the Boston Celtics though, he'd be a decent enough mentor and good backup to Marcus Smart, who looks like the real deal. But the days of Derrick Rose being a perennial all-star/cornerstone of a franchise are over.

I'd rather keep Melo than take on a broken down Rose. Rose is done. Much as I'd like to move Melo, it still has to benefit the Knicks somehow.

Taking Rose is a means to an end to get Butler, McDermott and Mirotic, while being bad enough to get a top pick in the draft. I wouldn't expect him to be much more than a great bench player (which is why I'd try to move him to the Celtics for their bad contracts).

Splat
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11/22/2014  3:08 PM
NardDogNation wrote:
Taking Rose is a means to an end to get Butler, McDermott and Mirotic, while being bad enough to get a top pick in the draft. I wouldn't expect him to be much more than a great bench player (which is why I'd try to move him to the Celtics for their bad contracts).

You're whistling Dixie my friend. Chi ain't giving us their young bucks.

I've got a fever and the only prescription is more cowbell!
F500ONE
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11/22/2014  3:10 PM
Splat wrote:I'd say yes, except we screwed that up by not doing it earlier. Now we have him paid more than any club is likely to take on as a salary burden. If other clubs see him as a piece, but not their foundation, then asking them to take on a franchise player sized salary is probably asking for too much. Perhaps if we had gotten Melo to agree to $100M as part of a sign and trade deal, that might have worked out, but I'm afraid it might be impossible now. And if he become injured, his salary looks like a joke to the league, so I think the Knicks boxed themselves into a corner on this one, particularly since Melo has to consent to any trade and that could kill anything that is cooked up.

Splat what is your reasoning behind

Phil not exploring S&Ting of Melo


Just to see what's out there, what do you personally

Feel was the motivating factor for Phil not using this


Option as it was surely at his disposal

For the record we are pretty much too late on the full rebuild ship


It has come and sailed, we are going to be

Not bad enough to suck real good and stuck in between mediocrity

F500ONE
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11/22/2014  3:12 PM
What I do hope somehow we get fortunate

Land this top pick in the lottery


Make that player the instant face of franchise

And Melo pisses in La La's Honey Nut Cheerios


And wants to go fugitive out of New York, Lin style jealousy

Splat
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11/22/2014  3:15 PM
F500ONE wrote:
Splat wrote:I'd say yes, except we screwed that up by not doing it earlier. Now we have him paid more than any club is likely to take on as a salary burden. If other clubs see him as a piece, but not their foundation, then asking them to take on a franchise player sized salary is probably asking for too much. Perhaps if we had gotten Melo to agree to $100M as part of a sign and trade deal, that might have worked out, but I'm afraid it might be impossible now. And if he become injured, his salary looks like a joke to the league, so I think the Knicks boxed themselves into a corner on this one, particularly since Melo has to consent to any trade and that could kill anything that is cooked up.

Splat what is your reasoning behind

Phil not exploring S&Ting of Melo


Just to see what's out there, what do you personally

Feel was the motivating factor for Phil not using this


Option as it was surely at his disposal

For the record we are pretty much too late on the full rebuild ship


It has come and sailed, we are going to be

Not bad enough to suck real good and stuck in between mediocrity

Speculatively, I'd say it either had to be:

the one condition Dolan made before ceding operational controls

or

Phil was afraid to do a full rebuild (Zen Master No Fear!)

or

as I once said, it was hubris on Phil's part to think he of Zen fame would mold Melo in his image. Phil has got a giant ego himself from what I can see, so even if he understands personalities he can still slip up if he over-esteems his transformational abilities. All the stuff he said about Melo taking it a notch higher, that was all Phil. It's a load of horsechit mostly, because Melo has never adapted, so expecting him to do it now is hubris.

I've got a fever and the only prescription is more cowbell!
SwishAndDish13
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11/22/2014  3:19 PM
Forgot who it was but people had mentioned the Knicks tanking this year. Certainly had that feel looking at the roster. Would sooner go full tank mode.this yr. Get a tkp 5 pick then use cap space to address other needs and bring in a big piece. Way less variables in that then in a rebuild especially since they don't have the picks required for full rebuild.
Splat
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11/22/2014  3:27 PM
SwishAndDish13 wrote:Forgot who it was but people had mentioned the Knicks tanking this year. Certainly had that feel looking at the roster. Would sooner go full tank mode.this yr. Get a tkp 5 pick then use cap space to address other needs and bring in a big piece. Way less variables in that then in a rebuild especially since they don't have the picks required for full rebuild.

Ten days ago there was a kind of uproar over the notion we are tanking, but it sure looks that way so more people are accepting it as a possibility now, either by design or by default. It doesn't matter now what the Knicks wanted going into this season. They suck. To not tank now would actually be a waste of good losses. If Melo starts getting games off for vague injuries, the tank is on.

I've got a fever and the only prescription is more cowbell!
F500ONE
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11/22/2014  3:30 PM
Splat wrote:
F500ONE wrote:
Splat wrote:I'd say yes, except we screwed that up by not doing it earlier. Now we have him paid more than any club is likely to take on as a salary burden. If other clubs see him as a piece, but not their foundation, then asking them to take on a franchise player sized salary is probably asking for too much. Perhaps if we had gotten Melo to agree to $100M as part of a sign and trade deal, that might have worked out, but I'm afraid it might be impossible now. And if he become injured, his salary looks like a joke to the league, so I think the Knicks boxed themselves into a corner on this one, particularly since Melo has to consent to any trade and that could kill anything that is cooked up.

Splat what is your reasoning behind

Phil not exploring S&Ting of Melo


Just to see what's out there, what do you personally

Feel was the motivating factor for Phil not using this


Option as it was surely at his disposal

For the record we are pretty much too late on the full rebuild ship


It has come and sailed, we are going to be

Not bad enough to suck real good and stuck in between mediocrity

Speculatively, I'd say it either had to be:

the one condition Dolan made before ceding operational controls

or

Phil was afraid to do a full rebuild (Zen Master No Fear!)

or

as I once said, it was hubris on Phil's part to think he of Zen fame would mold Melo in his image. Phil has got a giant ego himself from what I can see, so even if he understands personalities he can still slip up if he over-esteems his transformational abilities. All the stuff he said about Melo taking it a notch higher, that was all Phil. It's a load of horsechit mostly, because Melo has never adapted, so expecting him to do it now is hubris.

So an ego got in the way of intellect

Why call a roster clumsy, which had Melo on it


If he hadn't examined it with a keen eye at it's core

Why did this same exec in jest declare Lakers


Extension of Kobe as categorically absurd[he only brought them 5 chips]

Was he pouting and hating because Laker's didn't


Bring him aboard the royalty realm, I'm trying to weave a web of sense

Thus far nothing I've seen from Phil makes sense


He's actually been a clumsy President

I can't stand anything more when the allure suffocates reality

NardDogNation
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11/22/2014  3:44 PM    LAST EDITED: 11/22/2014  3:50 PM
Splat wrote:
NardDogNation wrote:
Butler's a nice player but he can't be the cornerstone of your franchise if you're a contender. I said in a previous thread that he'll have the chance to challenge for an all-star berth in the future but let's not get carried away with his ceiling. Guys like Mo Williams and Jameer Nelson were all-stars but I don't think anyone would've ever considered them to be legitimate building blocks for a contender; same deal as Tayshaun Prince who was always under consideration. Butler is a cog guy and when you're comparing him to Melo, Melo wins out every time. More importantly, to get the salaries to match, the Bulls would have to include Derrick Rose's contract aka Mr. I Don't Play If I'm Hurting and I've Been Injuried for Nearly Two Full Seasons. That is no easy cookie to swallow, so there needs to be compensation for giving up one of the leagues best scorers and most marketable talents in the league.

You're talking rebuild, thus trading Melo does not need to bring back a franchise player, just good players and/or assets.

Again, saying Melo is this or that, thus we get get back this or that is not all that relevant. We are the ones who boxed ourselves into the corner. We will have to wear a chit eating grin to do any trades regarding Melo, because no GM is going to give us fair value. Don't forget, they would be assuming a guy with a no-trade clause so as soon as he is on their team, they're stuck with him too. So we have to take dimes on the dollars. That's business folks!

That doesn't make any sense. Melo is locked into an extended contract, which means we don't have to move him if we don't want to, especially without a trade demand. In other words, we have all the leverage in trade negotiations. On top of that, Melo is healthy and hasn't missed an extended amount of time due to injury in his career but is still performing at his best. Any speculation that he's near his decline or bound to become injury prone is just that....speculation (even though I tend to share that opinion). But business is based on tangible facts and because of that, Melo will command close to top dollar in a trade, especially if bad contracts have to be assumed. But Chicago is the only team I could see Melo wanting to go to or that is in the unique circumstances to benefit from his play, so I don't see a Melo trade being forthright if Chicago is content with their team and if Melo is content with New York.

That being said, everyone and their mother would trade Jimmy Butler if it means getting Carmelo Anthony, particularly if you are looking to be true contenders. In fact, you'd need more than Butler to compensate for the value differential.

arkrud
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11/22/2014  3:44 PM
Rebuild. You are talking about thing which is already started.
We are in demolition phase. The only thing will stay is Melo.
And it is nothing wrong about it.
We still net Stat, Bargs, JR, etc. to get out somehow before building up begins.
Most likely we will not get lucky of trading them for anything. So its just time...
Fans who are looking for wins can safely hibernate for 2 years.
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." Hamlet
NardDogNation
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11/22/2014  3:45 PM
Splat wrote:
NardDogNation wrote:
Taking Rose is a means to an end to get Butler, McDermott and Mirotic, while being bad enough to get a top pick in the draft. I wouldn't expect him to be much more than a great bench player (which is why I'd try to move him to the Celtics for their bad contracts).

You're whistling Dixie my friend. Chi ain't giving us their young bucks.

Yeah they would, especially if we helped them get a PG to not replace Derrick.

Splat
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11/22/2014  3:49 PM
F500ONE wrote:
Splat wrote:
Speculatively, I'd say it either had to be:

the one condition Dolan made before ceding operational controls

or

Phil was afraid to do a full rebuild (Zen Master No Fear!)

or

as I once said, it was hubris on Phil's part to think he of Zen fame would mold Melo in his image. Phil has got a giant ego himself from what I can see, so even if he understands personalities he can still slip up if he over-esteems his transformational abilities. All the stuff he said about Melo taking it a notch higher, that was all Phil. It's a load of horsechit mostly, because Melo has never adapted, so expecting him to do it now is hubris.

So an ego got in the way of intellect

Why call a roster clumsy, which had Melo on it


If he hadn't examined it with a keen eye at it's core

Why did this same exec in jest declare Lakers


Extension of Kobe as categorically absurd[he only brought them 5 chips]

Was he pouting and hating because Laker's didn't


Bring him aboard the royalty realm, I'm trying to weave a web of sense

Thus far nothing I've seen from Phil makes sense


He's actually been a clumsy President

I can't stand anything more when the allure suffocates reality

Paul Graham of Y Combinator writes superb essays that apply to life as much as entrepreneurial activities.

He made a key point when writing about what one chooses to do with their life, aka purpose and how it impacts your choices as an entrepreneur.

He said Prestige is the absolute worst reason to choose to do anything. His words follow:

What you should not do, I think, is worry about the opinion of anyone beyond your friends. You shouldn't worry about prestige. Prestige is the opinion of the rest of the world. When you can ask the opinions of people whose judgement you respect, what does it add to consider the opinions of people you don't even know? [4]

This is easy advice to give. It's hard to follow, especially when you're young. [5] Prestige is like a powerful magnet that warps even your beliefs about what you enjoy. It causes you to work not on what you like, but what you'd like to like.

That's what leads people to try to write novels, for example. They like reading novels. They notice that people who write them win Nobel prizes. What could be more wonderful, they think, than to be a novelist? But liking the idea of being a novelist is not enough; you have to like the actual work of novel-writing if you're going to be good at it; you have to like making up elaborate lies.

Prestige is just fossilized inspiration. If you do anything well enough, you'll make it prestigious. Plenty of things we now consider prestigious were anything but at first. Jazz comes to mind—though almost any established art form would do. So just do what you like, and let prestige take care of itself.

Prestige is especially dangerous to the ambitious. If you want to make ambitious people waste their time on errands, the way to do it is to bait the hook with prestige. That's the recipe for getting people to give talks, write forewords, serve on committees, be department heads, and so on. It might be a good rule simply to avoid any prestigious task. If it didn't suck, they wouldn't have had to make it prestigious.

Similarly, if you admire two kinds of work equally, but one is more prestigious, you should probably choose the other. Your opinions about what's admirable are always going to be slightly influenced by prestige, so if the two seem equal to you, you probably have more genuine admiration for the less prestigious one.

http://www.paulgraham.com/love.html

I've got a fever and the only prescription is more cowbell!
Splat
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11/22/2014  3:53 PM    LAST EDITED: 11/22/2014  3:54 PM
NardDogNation wrote:
That doesn't make any sense. Melo is locked into an extended contract, which means we don't have to move him if we don't want to, especially without a trade demand. In other words, we have all the leverage in trade negotiations. On top of that, Melo is healthy and hasn't missed an extended amount of time due to injury in his career but is still performing at his best. Any speculation that he's near his decline or bound to become injury prone is just that....speculation (even though I tend to share that opinion). But business is based on tangible facts and because of that, Melo will command close to top dollar in a trade, especially if bad contracts have to be assumed.

That being said, everyone and their mother would trade Jimmy Butler if it means getting Carmelo Anthony, particularly if you are looking to be true contenders. In fact, you'd need more than Butler to compensate for the value differential.

We'll have to take your word on that then seeing how none of us can say with any certainty what any other club will do. Your certainty is subjective, not factual, so don't get hung up on what you think should happen. I said its business because negotiations are based on what two sides agree to in the end, not suppositions about what they should do. Being that the Knicks have never shown any aptitude at this tango dance, it seems quixotic on your part to assert how we'd fare based on what you think Melo is worth. GMs abuse the Knicks all the time. Until that changes significantly, I will assume that is always a major factor going forward and we will always be settling trades for dimes on the dollar.

I've got a fever and the only prescription is more cowbell!
NardDogNation
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11/22/2014  4:05 PM    LAST EDITED: 11/22/2014  4:05 PM
Splat wrote:
NardDogNation wrote:
That doesn't make any sense. Melo is locked into an extended contract, which means we don't have to move him if we don't want to, especially without a trade demand. In other words, we have all the leverage in trade negotiations. On top of that, Melo is healthy and hasn't missed an extended amount of time due to injury in his career but is still performing at his best. Any speculation that he's near his decline or bound to become injury prone is just that....speculation (even though I tend to share that opinion). But business is based on tangible facts and because of that, Melo will command close to top dollar in a trade, especially if bad contracts have to be assumed.

That being said, everyone and their mother would trade Jimmy Butler if it means getting Carmelo Anthony, particularly if you are looking to be true contenders. In fact, you'd need more than Butler to compensate for the value differential.

We'll have to take your word on that then seeing how none of us can say with any certainty what any other club will do. Your certainty is subjective, not factual, so don't get hung up on what you think should happen. I said its business because negotiations are based on what two sides agree to in the end, not suppositions about what they should do. Being that the Knicks have never shown any aptitude at this tango dance, it seems quixotic on your part to assert how we'd fare based on what you think Melo is worth. GMs abuse the Knicks all the time. Until that changes significantly, I will assume that is always a major factor going forward and we will always be settling trades for dimes on the dollar.

So you can pose your supposition as fact but the mere expression of my own is an issue? Got it.

As for insight into what one league GM, Danny Ferry, thinks of Melo:

(Danny)Ferry would go on to say of Anthony: "So is (Carmelo Anthony) really worth the 20 million dollars? … I would argue if he plays the right way, absolutely."

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/an-exclusive-look-at-hawks-gm-danny-ferry-s-fateful-phone-call-180253404.html

Good luck finding anyone that thinks Butler's talent is worthy of $20 million/yr.

Splat
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11/22/2014  4:18 PM
NardDogNation wrote:
So you can pose your supposition as fact but the mere expression of my own is an issue? Got it.

As for insight into what one league GM, Danny Ferry, thinks of Melo:

Are you actually upset? I'm making no suppositions about what we'd net in a trade. All I'm saying is if any of us do so, it is merely a supposition. You. Me. Anyone. Don't make it personal. It's just unknowable. And it was merely my opinion Chicago would not give up those players. Its just banter about scenarios nuthin more

I've got a fever and the only prescription is more cowbell!
NardDogNation
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11/22/2014  5:01 PM
Splat wrote:
NardDogNation wrote:
So you can pose your supposition as fact but the mere expression of my own is an issue? Got it.

As for insight into what one league GM, Danny Ferry, thinks of Melo:

Are you actually upset? I'm making no suppositions about what we'd net in a trade. All I'm saying is if any of us do so, it is merely a supposition. You. Me. Anyone. Don't make it personal. It's just unknowable. And it was merely my opinion Chicago would not give up those players. Its just banter about scenarios nuthin more

Dude, I'm not upset. I can be petty but give me a little more credit than that. All I'm saying is that your presumption that we're "boxed in" with Melo's contract is every bit as speculatory as me assessing his trade value. All we work on as fans are bits and pieces of info that are often 2nd and 3rd hand at best. But Melo's talent is undeniable, so its hard for me to picture Jimmy Butler being the best we can do.

Would You Do A Full Rebuild?

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