H1AND1 wrote:

VCoug wrote:

TripleThreat wrote:

VCoug wrote:We're definitely not tanking, on purpose; the Tyson-Calderon trade makes 0 sense if we were planning to tank this year.

IIRC, Zack Lowe has gone on record a couple of times in the offseason and early this season saying Chandler and Melo had serious personal issues that couldn't be resolved and that created a rift where the Knicks had to move Chandler off the roster (not like they were going to jettison Melo)

Honestly the Chandler trade just appears to be a bad trade in general IMHO.

As for a long rotation, what choice does Fisher have? He has a glut of PF/C's who can't stay healthy and all create negative trade offs in matchups. It's an incomplete poor fitting roster that is short on talent and heavy on age and injury, a long rotation is really a patchwork job. Can't blame Fisher too much for that.

I'm not saying we shouldn't have traded Tyson, Hell I've been making fake trades including him for a few years now. I'm just saying the trade we did make is a win-now kind of trade.

But it also could've been a "Win Now and be pleasantly surprised move But if we happen to be horrible at least the pkayers who'll be here after next year will learn the offense and we'll get a high draft pick in the process because let's not kid ourselves we were never going to contend this year anyway" move, too.

If that's the case there must have been better moves available then trading for 33 year old, will be 34 next season, Jose Calderon. I like Calderon but how much value does he add to this team next season? We couldn't have gotten a better deal from OKC, Toronto, Phoenix, or New Orleans? It was clearly a win-now move made to make us a more attractive destination for free agents next Summer.

nixluva wrote:It looks to me like Fish is using this early season to also develop players which is as important as anything else. IMO the minutes our younger players are getting will pay dividends later in the year. I don't see the losing being a season long condition. I think this team will eventually get better and win games. It's not like they're getting blown out every night. It won't take much to go from losing these games to winning them.

No he's not or else those players

Would get consistent minutes every game

Regardless of who they're playing and situation

He's coaching by feeling and in game circumstances

Which is totally contrary to developing

A team that has been properly developing youth

Was Utah when they got rid of Big Al and Paul Milsap

And it looks like they could be a breath away from breaking through

Once we dump or stop playing the garbage veterans on this team

This is when we'll be properly developing our young talen

H1AND1 wrote:

VCoug wrote:

H1AND1 wrote:

VCoug wrote:

TripleThreat wrote:

VCoug wrote:We're definitely not tanking, on purpose; the Tyson-Calderon trade makes 0 sense if we were planning to tank this year.

IIRC, Zack Lowe has gone on record a couple of times in the offseason and early this season saying Chandler and Melo had serious personal issues that couldn't be resolved and that created a rift where the Knicks had to move Chandler off the roster (not like they were going to jettison Melo)

Honestly the Chandler trade just appears to be a bad trade in general IMHO.

As for a long rotation, what choice does Fisher have? He has a glut of PF/C's who can't stay healthy and all create negative trade offs in matchups. It's an incomplete poor fitting roster that is short on talent and heavy on age and injury, a long rotation is really a patchwork job. Can't blame Fisher too much for that.

I'm not saying we shouldn't have traded Tyson, Hell I've been making fake trades including him for a few years now. I'm just saying the trade we did make is a win-now kind of trade.

But it also could've been a "Win Now and be pleasantly surprised move But if we happen to be horrible at least the pkayers who'll be here after next year will learn the offense and we'll get a high draft pick in the process because let's not kid ourselves we were never going to contend this year anyway" move, too.

If that's the case there must have been better moves available then trading for 33 year old, will be 34 next season, Jose Calderon. I like Calderon but how much value does he add to this team next season? We couldn't have gotten a better deal from OKC, Toronto, Phoenix, or New Orleans? It was clearly a win-now move made to make us a more attractive destination for free agents next Summer.

I don't really see how adding a 33 year old Jose Calderon to the Knicks really makes us a more attractive FA destination? I see it more that Chandler had to go and his value wasn't as high as many thought and Calderon was the best triangle oriented PG Phil could get back in a trade. But i see your point. I just always have had the suspicion that while Phil, Fisher et al spoke of playoffs they knew this season could turn into a colossal bust but if the team did outplay expectations then great!

I think Phil Jackson's thinking goes something like this. We were a 37-win team last season but one that kind of turned it around the last month of the season, going 16-7 in March and April. He thinks that getting rid of a good player but one that apparently didn't get along with our star, who he wanted to resign, in Tyson as well as a ****ing terrible player in Felton and replacing them with a solid big man, Dalembert; a much, much better PG, Calderon; and a solid role player with the 2nd rounder bumps our team up our record from last year 10ish wins or so. Maybe, if we're lucky, we're able to replicate the 54-win team from two years ago (though it doesn't appear that Jackson or Fisher understand WHY we won that many games). Then we go into next Summer with max or near-max cap space with a core of players that just won, like, 44 games the year before. He signs a max free agent or a couple of top-flight free agents and we're title contenders after one year of rebuilding.

Instead we're god-****ing-awful and I can't imagine any top-flight free agents that would sign here as long as they have other options. And I know Calderon hasn't played yet but I can't believe he's the difference between us being one of the worst teams in the league and over .500.

You would think any shooting guard with athletic ability and a solid mid range shot, would thrive in this system like jordan and kobes, but that hasn't been the case. You definitely have to let things play out before you can judge it.

What I see fisher doing is playing guys to evaluate there skill set, and how good they can be. I don't think phil and fish are exactly on the same page in some areas. When a President says, he believes in a time table, and the coach thinks, there shouldn't be one, that raise an eyebrow IMO.

After 17 games (including preseason) you have to establish some kind of rotation, or your just going through the motion grabbing for straws..

VCoug wrote:

H1AND1 wrote:

VCoug wrote:

H1AND1 wrote:

VCoug wrote:

TripleThreat wrote:

VCoug wrote:We're definitely not tanking, on purpose; the Tyson-Calderon trade makes 0 sense if we were planning to tank this year.

IIRC, Zack Lowe has gone on record a couple of times in the offseason and early this season saying Chandler and Melo had serious personal issues that couldn't be resolved and that created a rift where the Knicks had to move Chandler off the roster (not like they were going to jettison Melo)

Honestly the Chandler trade just appears to be a bad trade in general IMHO.

As for a long rotation, what choice does Fisher have? He has a glut of PF/C's who can't stay healthy and all create negative trade offs in matchups. It's an incomplete poor fitting roster that is short on talent and heavy on age and injury, a long rotation is really a patchwork job. Can't blame Fisher too much for that.

I'm not saying we shouldn't have traded Tyson, Hell I've been making fake trades including him for a few years now. I'm just saying the trade we did make is a win-now kind of trade.

But it also could've been a "Win Now and be pleasantly surprised move But if we happen to be horrible at least the pkayers who'll be here after next year will learn the offense and we'll get a high draft pick in the process because let's not kid ourselves we were never going to contend this year anyway" move, too.

If that's the case there must have been better moves available then trading for 33 year old, will be 34 next season, Jose Calderon. I like Calderon but how much value does he add to this team next season? We couldn't have gotten a better deal from OKC, Toronto, Phoenix, or New Orleans? It was clearly a win-now move made to make us a more attractive destination for free agents next Summer.

I don't really see how adding a 33 year old Jose Calderon to the Knicks really makes us a more attractive FA destination? I see it more that Chandler had to go and his value wasn't as high as many thought and Calderon was the best triangle oriented PG Phil could get back in a trade. But i see your point. I just always have had the suspicion that while Phil, Fisher et al spoke of playoffs they knew this season could turn into a colossal bust but if the team did outplay expectations then great!

I think Phil Jackson's thinking goes something like this. We were a 37-win team last season but one that kind of turned it around the last month of the season, going 16-7 in March and April. He thinks that getting rid of a good player but one that apparently didn't get along with our star, who he wanted to resign, in Tyson as well as a ****ing terrible player in Felton and replacing them with a solid big man, Dalembert; a much, much better PG, Calderon; and a solid role player with the 2nd rounder bumps our team up our record from last year 10ish wins or so. Maybe, if we're lucky, we're able to replicate the 54-win team from two years ago (though it doesn't appear that Jackson or Fisher understand WHY we won that many games). Then we go into next Summer with max or near-max cap space with a core of players that just won, like, 44 games the year before. He signs a max free agent or a couple of top-flight free agents and we're title contenders after one year of rebuilding.

Instead we're god-****ing-awful and I can't imagine any top-flight free agents that would sign here as long as they have other options. And I know Calderon hasn't played yet but I can't believe he's the difference between us being one of the worst teams in the league and over .500.

I agree with every thing you said except the Calderón part. We lost a few close games with Larkin down the stretch. In two close games he had a couple costly TO'S that essentially put the icing on the the lost and there was another game he miss a FT that essentially cost us a win. We have been pretty bad in 3rd quarters with high TO's when teams turn up the pressure. These are areas Calderón excels in, Protecting the ball and hitting FT's. 5 of the 7 losses have happen during the last 2 minutes of the game, he a steady PG that doesn't make mistakes, and although Calderon and Prigioni are slow, PLAYING THOSE TWO in a tight game down the stretch, you can be sure of 3 things, the won't make silly mistakes, they shot 40% from the arc, and 90% from the FT line..