knickscity wrote:

Dagger wrote:How about the hubris factor of all these posters who think they understand the game more than one of the most successful basketball minds in history? Now THAT is hubris in its most comical form.

Lol, the NBA's CBA is published publicly and interpreted by several. And on the court is Phil seeing something we arent...I doubt it.

Sure he certainly was a great coach, that dont translate to being an executive.

That statement is not grounded in fact, and very likely incorrect. That's exactly what I'm talking about.

Dagger wrote:

F500ONE wrote:

Dagger wrote:How about the hubris factor of all these posters who think they understand the game more than one of the most successful basketball minds in history? Now THAT is hubris in its most comical form.

So regular fans don't have the wherewithal

To suggest drafting Darko ahead of Carmelo was dumb

Or does the Hubris only factor if the individual on the

Other side has chips and rings and whatnot

Last time I checked Joe Dumars has 2 rings

Put a team together to win another, maybe one of the

All-Time best defenders in the NBA, yet he certainly proved

Not to be infallible, nice try at debunking but no can do Dagger

Phil has goofed already a few time on the job, I hope it doesn't continue

Basketball executives make mistakes like everyone, but you put an average fan in their shoes you will see unprecedented incompetence. Fact of the matter is, we as fans do not have the benefit of the doubt when it comes to assessing these moves, as we generally come from an area of less expertise than those who have worked within the sport at a professional level for decades. I've disagreed with a few moves so far such as larkin's option and the Travis outlaw trade to the Sixers. But quite frankly, to assert that you are seeing things on the court that a man with Phil's track record is oblivious to comes off as arrogant as best, and people don't take it seriously. It's fine to question, but when I see posters saying things like "Carmelo is worth 12 million a year or the fat slob can walk" while puffing out their chests and stating Phil had no idea what he was doing when he resigned him, it comes off as buffoonish. It's easy for people to hide behind their computer screens and say these things, I'm afraid the real job of a GM is far more complicated.

it's not about what a fan sees on the court it's about whether the fan would grossly overpay carmelo anthony.

that is not a question of expertise it is a question of character.

nice try at misdirection but you know you're going to get checked for it.

dk7th wrote:

Dagger wrote:

F500ONE wrote:

Dagger wrote:How about the hubris factor of all these posters who think they understand the game more than one of the most successful basketball minds in history? Now THAT is hubris in its most comical form.

So regular fans don't have the wherewithal

To suggest drafting Darko ahead of Carmelo was dumb

Or does the Hubris only factor if the individual on the

Other side has chips and rings and whatnot

Last time I checked Joe Dumars has 2 rings

Put a team together to win another, maybe one of the

All-Time best defenders in the NBA, yet he certainly proved

Not to be infallible, nice try at debunking but no can do Dagger

Phil has goofed already a few time on the job, I hope it doesn't continue

Basketball executives make mistakes like everyone, but you put an average fan in their shoes you will see unprecedented incompetence. Fact of the matter is, we as fans do not have the benefit of the doubt when it comes to assessing these moves, as we generally come from an area of less expertise than those who have worked within the sport at a professional level for decades. I've disagreed with a few moves so far such as larkin's option and the Travis outlaw trade to the Sixers. But quite frankly, to assert that you are seeing things on the court that a man with Phil's track record is oblivious to comes off as arrogant as best, and people don't take it seriously. It's fine to question, but when I see posters saying things like "Carmelo is worth 12 million a year or the fat slob can walk" while puffing out their chests and stating Phil had no idea what he was doing when he resigned him, it comes off as buffoonish. It's easy for people to hide behind their computer screens and say these things, I'm afraid the real job of a GM is far more complicated.

it's not about what a fan sees on the court it's about whether the fan would grossly overpay carmelo anthony.

that is not a question of expertise it is a question of character.

nice try at misdirection but you know you're going to get checked for it.

your obsession with Melo is gross

martin wrote:

dk7th wrote:

Dagger wrote:

F500ONE wrote:

Dagger wrote:How about the hubris factor of all these posters who think they understand the game more than one of the most successful basketball minds in history? Now THAT is hubris in its most comical form.

So regular fans don't have the wherewithal

To suggest drafting Darko ahead of Carmelo was dumb

Or does the Hubris only factor if the individual on the

Other side has chips and rings and whatnot

Last time I checked Joe Dumars has 2 rings

Put a team together to win another, maybe one of the

All-Time best defenders in the NBA, yet he certainly proved

Not to be infallible, nice try at debunking but no can do Dagger

Phil has goofed already a few time on the job, I hope it doesn't continue

Basketball executives make mistakes like everyone, but you put an average fan in their shoes you will see unprecedented incompetence. Fact of the matter is, we as fans do not have the benefit of the doubt when it comes to assessing these moves, as we generally come from an area of less expertise than those who have worked within the sport at a professional level for decades. I've disagreed with a few moves so far such as larkin's option and the Travis outlaw trade to the Sixers. But quite frankly, to assert that you are seeing things on the court that a man with Phil's track record is oblivious to comes off as arrogant as best, and people don't take it seriously. It's fine to question, but when I see posters saying things like "Carmelo is worth 12 million a year or the fat slob can walk" while puffing out their chests and stating Phil had no idea what he was doing when he resigned him, it comes off as buffoonish. It's easy for people to hide behind their computer screens and say these things, I'm afraid the real job of a GM is far more complicated.

it's not about what a fan sees on the court it's about whether the fan would grossly overpay carmelo anthony.

that is not a question of expertise it is a question of character.

nice try at misdirection but you know you're going to get checked for it.

your obsession with Melo is gross

To be fair, the man is a looker and has an impeccable sense of style.

NardDogNation wrote:
To be fair, the man is a looker and has an impeccable sense of style.

Ladies and Gentleman, the first vote in favor of Melo's hat has been logged.

mreinman wrote:

knickscity wrote:Even though Phil stated he had the power to NOT re-sign melo, I dont believe that for a second.

yeah ... no say at all

I think Phil had the autonomy. He just wanted to win, and Melo offered the quickest means to that end.

I still think it was a bad decision because I don't foresee us having the means to surround Melo with the kind of talent he needs to compensate for his flaws. That concern is compounded by the fact that Melo has gotten a number of dings over the years that could culminate into him being perpetually injuried ala Allan Houston or Amare. None of that makes me particularly optimistic about the future but I really like Derek Fisher thus far. I suppose time will tell but Phil probably is trying to win it all on an ill-fated 5 year plan (if that), then sail off into the sunset.

Splat wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

mreinman wrote:

knickscity wrote:Even though Phil stated he had the power to NOT re-sign melo, I dont believe that for a second.

yeah ... no say at all

I think Phil had the autonomy. He just wanted to win, and Melo offered the quickest means to that end.

I still think it was a bad decision because I don't foresee us having the means to surround Melo with the kind of talent he needs to compensate for his flaws. That concern is compounded by the fact that Melo has gotten a number of dings over the years that could culminate into him being perpetually injuried ala Allan Houston or Amare. None of that makes me particularly optimistic about the future but I really like Derek Fisher thus far. I suppose time will tell but Phil probably is trying to win it all on an ill-fated 5 year plan (if that), then sail off into the sunset.

And that is why I said it may be a matter of Hubris in Phil's case. He may have actually thought he could roll the dice on maxing out Melo with the kind of deal he gave him and that his magic sauce would fill in the gaps and transform everyone with his wisdom and presence and create a championship during his five year deal.

Phil is an historic anomaly. Other than the Celtics repeatedly winning everything with Bill Russell, Jax is really the only coach to have had the rosters he's been blessed with. It still takes decent coaching to win even with the best talent and with big egos, so I give him his props.

But Phil was spoiled by his good fortune and his rationale behind Melo and the contract he gave him doesn't look sound. He was a coach, but he may think he knows it all and he is not the king of the mountain anymore. If he thinks he is, then he is already mistaken.

I met a famous meditation teacher once. When we were alone together, they told me twice, "You know I'm a Zen master, don't you?" They were not. They soon were thrown out of their own organization by his students for being a hustler and a fraud.

That's a true story. I knew the guy was hustling me. I've met some interesting characters and when the effort to portray one's self as the grand poobah overtakes the narrative, trouble often comes biting at your tail soon after. Phil is not above the fray, but he may think he is.

I was just about to post something similar in response to your other post above. I've been saying this since Phil turned around and signed Melo after being publicly seemingly lukewarm on bringing him back: I think Phil wanted to resign melo (more on that in a second) but wanted Melo to think that Phil wasn't set on it as some sort of Zen mind meld ego check sort've thing. I think it was all part of his plan to turn him into a "winner" a la Shaq,Jordan, Kobe, etc.

I also think 100% Phil wanted to bring him back, too. It wasn't mandated though I'm sure Phil regaled Dolan before he was hired how he could turn Melo around. And the thing is Melo actually still has upside as we saw in the Olympics where he played team ball and how much more effective he could be IF he ever became more of an orchestrator. He actually still has "a couple levels he could go" as Phil
Said himself!

And here is where the hubris comes in, I like that word for it. Phil has literally never "lost" in his career. Sure he's lost in the finals but he's left every job he's had as a winner: Knicks as a player and then Bulls and Lakers as a coach. I think he believes 1000% that he can mold Melo into a player who suceeds in the triangle and then build a winning team around him. As I said he must've said that to Dolan before he was hired otherwise Dolan wouldn't of hired him. Now he has autonomy, but in that context. Anyway, maybe he finally meets his match with Melo and the Knicks and he finally fails in a professional sense? We'll see. As much as I've criticized Melo I do think that 6 games isn't enough to say its a lost cause. Let's see after a couple months how he's playing though I admit it's not an encouraging start. This season was always goin to he a transitional year and talk of playoffs was just talk anyone could see this roster was not going to contend or be very good. How many pkayers besides Melo do the Knicks have who'd he starters on a contending team? Or name how many Knicks would even in the rotation on a team like the Spurs, clippers, or Bulls?

Fortunately Phil is smart as you said, splat. Because I do agree that he is certain he can turn the knicks around. And finally one more thing: I think in the back of his mind the salary cap skyrocketing in a couple seasons also was in the back of his mind when signing Carmelo. It's amazing but Melos contract could be a drop in the bucket if the cap rises as much as some say. It's possible, I've read, that in 2017 the Knicks could have enough space to add 2, TWO (!!!) more max agents on top of Carmelo. That's pretty crazy.

martin wrote:

dk7th wrote:

Dagger wrote:

F500ONE wrote:

Dagger wrote:How about the hubris factor of all these posters who think they understand the game more than one of the most successful basketball minds in history? Now THAT is hubris in its most comical form.

So regular fans don't have the wherewithal

To suggest drafting Darko ahead of Carmelo was dumb

Or does the Hubris only factor if the individual on the

Other side has chips and rings and whatnot

Last time I checked Joe Dumars has 2 rings

Put a team together to win another, maybe one of the

All-Time best defenders in the NBA, yet he certainly proved

Not to be infallible, nice try at debunking but no can do Dagger

Phil has goofed already a few time on the job, I hope it doesn't continue

Basketball executives make mistakes like everyone, but you put an average fan in their shoes you will see unprecedented incompetence. Fact of the matter is, we as fans do not have the benefit of the doubt when it comes to assessing these moves, as we generally come from an area of less expertise than those who have worked within the sport at a professional level for decades. I've disagreed with a few moves so far such as larkin's option and the Travis outlaw trade to the Sixers. But quite frankly, to assert that you are seeing things on the court that a man with Phil's track record is oblivious to comes off as arrogant as best, and people don't take it seriously. It's fine to question, but when I see posters saying things like "Carmelo is worth 12 million a year or the fat slob can walk" while puffing out their chests and stating Phil had no idea what he was doing when he resigned him, it comes off as buffoonish. It's easy for people to hide behind their computer screens and say these things, I'm afraid the real job of a GM is far more complicated.

it's not about what a fan sees on the court it's about whether the fan would grossly overpay carmelo anthony.

that is not a question of expertise it is a question of character.

nice try at misdirection but you know you're going to get checked for it.

your obsession with Melo is gross

not quite so gross as dolan's obsession, wouldn't you say?

Dagger wrote:

knickscity wrote:

Dagger wrote:

knickscity wrote:

Dagger wrote:How about the hubris factor of all these posters who think they understand the game more than one of the most successful basketball minds in history? Now THAT is hubris in its most comical form.

Lol, the NBA's CBA is published publicly and interpreted by several. And on the court is Phil seeing something we arent...I doubt it.

Sure he certainly was a great coach, that dont translate to being an executive.

That statement is not grounded in fact, and very likely incorrect. That's exactly what I'm talking about.

Maybe thats a testament to your basketball belief...but it isnt mine. I can spot a bad defender, a player not worth keeping...good players etc. i can even recognize the plays on the court, whether they are being excuted correctly or not.

I spot all those things as well and I definitely point them out on this website when I see them. What I'm saying is that I don't just assume that I'm necessarily seeing everything and I know that Phil knows more about basketball than I do, which is something true for probably everyone on this site. I'm just asking people to accept that before they scream out that they know better, our franchise is clueless, we shouldn't have kept that guy, etc...

Like I said above I really don't know why they didn't pick up Larkin's option, or why they felt it was necessary to give up two second round picks to get rid of Travis outlaw. But I don't think it's right to say I definitely know better yet when I don't know what they're planning. It's like looking at an incomplete puzzle.

For instance, Donnie Walsh certainly has more experience in basketball than all of us, does that make him right signing Amare for 100 million guaranteed fully agree of his injured past?

These guys have behind the scenes things, but we have alot in our hands that they do as well. Most notably our eyes, the CBA and it's rules and a wealth of advanced data. the gap is closing, the fan has the ability to have more understanding.

dk7th wrote:

martin wrote:

dk7th wrote:

Dagger wrote:

F500ONE wrote:

Dagger wrote:How about the hubris factor of all these posters who think they understand the game more than one of the most successful basketball minds in history? Now THAT is hubris in its most comical form.

So regular fans don't have the wherewithal

To suggest drafting Darko ahead of Carmelo was dumb

Or does the Hubris only factor if the individual on the

Other side has chips and rings and whatnot

Last time I checked Joe Dumars has 2 rings

Put a team together to win another, maybe one of the

All-Time best defenders in the NBA, yet he certainly proved

Not to be infallible, nice try at debunking but no can do Dagger

Phil has goofed already a few time on the job, I hope it doesn't continue

Basketball executives make mistakes like everyone, but you put an average fan in their shoes you will see unprecedented incompetence. Fact of the matter is, we as fans do not have the benefit of the doubt when it comes to assessing these moves, as we generally come from an area of less expertise than those who have worked within the sport at a professional level for decades. I've disagreed with a few moves so far such as larkin's option and the Travis outlaw trade to the Sixers. But quite frankly, to assert that you are seeing things on the court that a man with Phil's track record is oblivious to comes off as arrogant as best, and people don't take it seriously. It's fine to question, but when I see posters saying things like "Carmelo is worth 12 million a year or the fat slob can walk" while puffing out their chests and stating Phil had no idea what he was doing when he resigned him, it comes off as buffoonish. It's easy for people to hide behind their computer screens and say these things, I'm afraid the real job of a GM is far more complicated.

it's not about what a fan sees on the court it's about whether the fan would grossly overpay carmelo anthony.

that is not a question of expertise it is a question of character.

nice try at misdirection but you know you're going to get checked for it.

your obsession with Melo is gross

not quite so gross as dolan's obsession, wouldn't you say?

Don't know, don't care; you and Dolan can obsess about Melo as much as you want but it's only you who I see the need to bring up Melo at any turn, even out of context.

This is so early in the process that threads like this are almost embarrassing. What do we really have to discuss when not enough time has passed for any valid evaluation to be made? I can't recall any Prez/GM being evaluated after 6 games.