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jrodmc
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10/30/2014  9:55 AM
blkexec wrote:
Vmart wrote:Didn't Acy get destroyed all game by Gibson. Where is the defense?

The biggest problem with the Knicks is defense. When shots aren't falling they hang their head on defense.

Its easy to add a triangle structure....difficult to change a defensive culture.

I wish NY had the culture to accept tanking. If we did, we could be like the spurs when they tanked to get duncan, even though they had a hall of fame player.

Have you bothered to notice who we've drafted in the first round since Ewing, who we didn't have to tank for?

AUTOADVERT
Vmart
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10/30/2014  9:56 AM
blkexec wrote:
Vmart wrote:Didn't Acy get destroyed all game by Gibson. Where is the defense?

The biggest problem with the Knicks is defense. When shots aren't falling they hang their head on defense.

Its easy to add a triangle structure....difficult to change a defensive culture.

I wish NY had the culture to accept tanking. If we did, we could be like the spurs when they tanked to get duncan, even though they had a hall of fame player.

So true I can only think of the talent that the Knicks passed on by not tanking properly. That is what happens when you have a sold out stadium. Teams don't think they have to tank.

BRIGGS
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10/30/2014  10:12 AM
jrodmc wrote:
blkexec wrote:
Vmart wrote:Didn't Acy get destroyed all game by Gibson. Where is the defense?

The biggest problem with the Knicks is defense. When shots aren't falling they hang their head on defense.

Its easy to add a triangle structure....difficult to change a defensive culture.

I wish NY had the culture to accept tanking. If we did, we could be like the spurs when they tanked to get duncan, even though they had a hall of fame player.

Have you bothered to notice who we've drafted in the first round since Ewing, who we didn't have to tank for?

If we were able to get a top 5 pick this year--it will be material. While last years draft was supposed to be really good--this features a Tim Duncan franchise type player at pick 1 and then on down you have a Taj Gibson type PF in Hazrell who weighs 30 more pounds than Gibson--there will be a really good big man in the top 5. Thats what this franchise needs we need a great FA and a great draft pick. If I can get a 2nd pick in the top 15 Id willingly give up Tim hardaway as well.

RIP Crushalot😞
gunsnewing
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10/30/2014  10:23 AM
dk7th wrote:
BRIGGS wrote:After taking a hard look at Dalembart--hes a 15 minute player. Cole on the other had will give us the foundation of rebounding and defense every night at the C spot. Say whatever you want this guy rebounds the ball--he did it last year when he got the minutes and I think he can really put up big rebounding numbers if given 33-35 minutes. Is it goingf to turn us into a 50 win team--no. Will it make us better---yes.

i don't where you get just 15 minutes from the guy. he needs to be out there almost twice that amount, but i would think 24 minutes a night is acceptable.

i say this because, while he may not be boris diaw out there, the guy has show he is a much better passing big man than anyone else we have... and that passing ability means other players involved.

fisher needs to have a center tandem of samuel dalembert and cole aldrich. these are your two best big men for various and sundry reasons.

dalembert/aldrich

secondly, there is no way you can have both stoudemire and melo out there-- they will always get in each others way. by default stat has to go to the bench. no shame in that-- he will devastate second units if given the chance.

melo/stoudemire

the point guard position is set:

calderon/prigioni/larkin

you need two defenders out there so who are the two best defenders the knicks have at the shooting guard and forward positions? looks to me like shumpert and quincy acy though i'd like to see more of acy.

starters:

dalembert
melo
acy
calderon
shumpert

bench:

aldrich
stoudemire
i haven't seen cleanthony early play but i pencil him in on what i have heard of his defense
hardaway or jr smith-- both looked lost out there and don't defend so i hold my nose on this one
prigioni or larkin

falling out of the rotation is bargnani

I don't get why Fisher went away from that lineup. It was our most successful lineup in preseason. Especially defensively and there was synergy when Calderon was in there. Even Shumpert excelled. Fish F'd it up by starting Jason and then surrendering to Amare's demands

smackeddog
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10/30/2014  2:01 PM
I actually like Dalambert- which shocks me greatly. I'd say he's good for up to 25 mins a night
dk7th
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10/30/2014  2:34 PM
jrodmc wrote:
dk7th wrote:
BRIGGS wrote:After taking a hard look at Dalembart--hes a 15 minute player. Cole on the other had will give us the foundation of rebounding and defense every night at the C spot. Say whatever you want this guy rebounds the ball--he did it last year when he got the minutes and I think he can really put up big rebounding numbers if given 33-35 minutes. Is it goingf to turn us into a 50 win team--no. Will it make us better---yes.

i don't where you get just 15 minutes from the guy. he needs to be out there almost twice that amount, but i would think 24 minutes a night is acceptable.

i say this because, while he may not be boris diaw out there, the guy has show he is a much better passing big man than anyone else we have... and that passing ability means other players involved.

fisher needs to have a center tandem of samuel dalembert and cole aldrich. these are your two best big men for various and sundry reasons.

dalembert/aldrich

secondly, there is no way you can have both stoudemire and melo out there-- they will always get in each others way. by default stat has to go to the bench. no shame in that-- he will devastate second units if given the chance.

melo/stoudemire

the point guard position is set:

calderon/prigioni/larkin

you need two defenders out there so who are the two best defenders the knicks have at the shooting guard and forward positions? looks to me like shumpert and quincy acy though i'd like to see more of acy.

starters:

dalembert
melo
acy
calderon
shumpert

bench:

aldrich
stoudemire
i haven't seen cleanthony early play but i pencil him in on what i have heard of his defense
hardaway or jr smith-- both looked lost out there and don't defend so i hold my nose on this one
prigioni or larkin

falling out of the rotation is bargnani

And Jason Smith goes to the NBDL? Or China?
Didn't you at least get a chubby watching the Smith brothers connect on those two buckets in the first half for Jason? Two dimes for JR!

You're right. Somewhere tkf is chuckling.

all preseason i kept hearing "jason smith jason smith"

he was overmatched by gibson and gasol... he looked like a sacrificial lamb. he needs to work on his trunk and lower body if he's going to defend frontcourt players.

the offense was a hot mess reminiscent of games payed on the 86th street courts-- yes that bad.

knicks win 38-43 games in 16-17. rose MUST shoot no more than 14 shots per game, defer to kp6 + melo, and have a usage rate of less than 25%
gunsnewing
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10/30/2014  2:45 PM
Jason is ok in small doses. When you need to space the floor to run a play. There is a reason why New Orleans didn't consider him part of their future. He is a limited role player.

When you are a role player and you can't defend a pole it makes you an extremely limited role player/specialist. Like Steve Novak.

Key Role players like are guys like junkyard dog, Reggie Evans & othella Harrington. What they give offensicely is gravy. Their roles are to bring Energy, offensive rebounds, dive for loose balls, take charges and play defense.

That is not Jason Smith

Acy is the closest thing we have to that

So do you continue to start Amare with Melo and force one of them to sacrifice. Or do you move Amare to the 2nd unit where we desperately needed him last night and start Acy and hope that he continues to improve on his jumper and court awareness/IQ?

Vmart
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10/30/2014  3:10 PM
I believe you start your best players. Last game I feel the starters got an early hook. To early Fisher needs to get the starters playing big minutes 38 minutes a game. There is time after starting where you send one to the bench and ride the other. So I don't see the need to bench Amare he is your best inside presence. I don't understand why you would want to have him coming off the bench make absolutely no sense. Unless you want the Knicks to become a total perimeter chucking team.
WaltLongmire
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10/30/2014  3:16 PM
EnySpree wrote:nobody istalking about the game....

truth...dalembert was one of our best player last night.

truth....cole alrichis lucky to still be in the nba. hes not very good.

reading the stat sheet does not tell the story.

Dalembert was fine last night. I don't mind splitting the minutes between Sam and Cole, though.

Chris Smith is not someone you want patrolling the paint.

EnySpree: Can we agree to agree not to mention Phil Jackson and triangle for the rest of our lives?
gunsnewing
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10/30/2014  3:19 PM
It's only one game but if Jason smith doesn't assert himself on the defensive end I'm all for replacing him with Cole. I think Amare & Cole is a perfect big man tamden off the bench
Finestrg
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10/30/2014  3:26 PM    LAST EDITED: 10/30/2014  3:38 PM
BRIGGS wrote:
jrodmc wrote:
blkexec wrote:
Vmart wrote:Didn't Acy get destroyed all game by Gibson. Where is the defense?

The biggest problem with the Knicks is defense. When shots aren't falling they hang their head on defense.

Its easy to add a triangle structure....difficult to change a defensive culture.

I wish NY had the culture to accept tanking. If we did, we could be like the spurs when they tanked to get duncan, even though they had a hall of fame player.

Have you bothered to notice who we've drafted in the first round since Ewing, who we didn't have to tank for?

If we were able to get a top 5 pick this year--it will be material. While last years draft was supposed to be really good--this features a Tim Duncan franchise type player at pick 1 and then on down you have a Taj Gibson type PF in Hazrell who weighs 30 more pounds than Gibson--there will be a really good big man in the top 5. Thats what this franchise needs we need a great FA and a great draft pick. If I can get a 2nd pick in the top 15 Id willingly give up Tim hardaway as well.

I agree with you here. Not sure if he'll be worth a pick around 15, maybe more like 20-30. We gotta get this kid playing better otherwise he won't be worth squat...Like everyone, I think he'll begin playing better but like I always said, I really question his overall ability & ceiling. I've heard Ray Allen as a comparison -- I mean honestly guys? Come on...I just don't see it...If he's open, he'll make some shots. If he's got a lane to the basket, he'll take it in and lay it in. Here's the thing -- premier SGs in this league have a counterplan ready to go when teams take those things away. What's Timmy's?? The other facets of his game--defense, handle, ability to create for himself or develop plays for others--it's all lacking big-time imo. Another thing I noticed that I don't care for: he's way too much of a 'high/low' player meaning he gets way too high when he makes a shot or two (relax rook with the flexing your muscles and screaming into the crowd after a few made FGs already--find a way to do that 10X a game consistently, then you can go nuts all you want--and then flip side, his body language is beyond terrible when things get tough. I guess we can also add mental toughness to the list of deficiencies...We've seen it now quite a few times where we can almost call it a pattern: if Timmy's not making shots he's pretty much useless out there. He talked a good game about cleaning up his weaknesses i.e. defense, etc., let's see it!!! Bottom line as of right now -- he serves no purpose out there if he's not scoring. As of now, he's a very easy player for other teams to neutralize and take out of the game...Out of the 3 2Gs we have, I just wish we had a legit shooter to run off screens and knock down open looks. None of our 2s feature that ability. That was Ray Allen/H2O/RIP Hamilton/Reggie in their prime. I'd love to see Timmy being developed that way but for some reason, that's not how we use him. At least Shump plays his tail off on defense--that's why he remains my favorite of our 3 SGs.

Unless I see mass improvement it's not a big deal if we traded Timmy eventually (and then even if he does manage to play better and improve his stock, I think you still look at trading him as he might be worth an even higher pick). If we could get a pick around 20-25 for him, I thin you do it -- use that for a big man in the draft, and then look to replace Timmy on the cheap somewhere. He's probably our best chance to deal into the draft for a second 1st round pick this summer. JR's worthless to other teams and nobody's gonna want to surrender a 1st rounder for Shump now that he's either on the verge of becoming a QO player for us or a straight up RFA. That ship sailed...Been saying it -- we could always go out there and find a SG on the cheap, someone like Patrick Christopher or Terrence Williams. Heck, T-Will would be an upgrade over THJ. I still find T-Will's all-around game impressive. He does everything better than Timmy -- even better athlete, infinitely better handle, he's a very good passer (this guy makes others better--great court vision), plays better defense (always been known as a defender since his days at Lousiville) and at 6'6" 220 he's stronger than Timmy. Debatable if Timmy's a better shooter but I think T-Will's a pretty good shooter in his own right. Gotta love his smooth/potent one on one skills as well. Bottom line on T-Will: this dude has more than enough talent for the NBA. A few off-the-court issues probably still haunt him but all people deserve a second chance. As of right now there's no room for this guy on the Knicks but after this season when we'll undoubtedly see some restructuring, a guy like T-Will could make a lot of sense. Someone to keep in mind, esp. if we wind up moving a guy like Timmy...Can't sleep on some of these D-League guys man, I'm telling you. Look at the Pacers with Donald Sloan. Dude's a strong/crafty/shifty PG that's finally getting a chance with the Pacers and he's making the most of it. There's a ton of guys like that out there..

gunsnewing
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10/30/2014  3:27 PM
Vmart wrote:I believe you start your best players. Last game I feel the starters got an early hook. To early Fisher needs to get the starters playing big minutes 38 minutes a game. There is time after starting where you send one to the bench and ride the other. So I don't see the need to bench Amare he is your best inside presence. I don't understand why you would want to have him coming off the bench make absolutely no sense. Unless you want the Knicks to become a total perimeter chucking team.

I hear what you are saying about becoming a jumpshooting team without Amare in there. I just don't think you can at Amare and Melo together to start games. Amare will get his because he scores inside so effortlessly. Melo will have to work harder. Melo has his favorite spots it just so happens that Amare occupies the same spots.

You rarely if ever see a team where the 2 best offensive players are at the SF & PF spots. Lebron and Bosh but bosh had to become a role player and either him and lebron had to play center at times.

This all goes back to Phil's initial accessment of the Knicks when he called us "Clumsy".

I think they were trying to avoid this but then Amare complained to Fisher and he caved in. But last night showed how much we need Amare's production off the bench. Melo is not going to the bench that's for certain

H1AND1
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10/30/2014  4:21 PM    LAST EDITED: 10/30/2014  4:22 PM
dk7th wrote:
jrodmc wrote:
dk7th wrote:
BRIGGS wrote:After taking a hard look at Dalembart--hes a 15 minute player. Cole on the other had will give us the foundation of rebounding and defense every night at the C spot. Say whatever you want this guy rebounds the ball--he did it last year when he got the minutes and I think he can really put up big rebounding numbers if given 33-35 minutes. Is it goingf to turn us into a 50 win team--no. Will it make us better---yes.

i don't where you get just 15 minutes from the guy. he needs to be out there almost twice that amount, but i would think 24 minutes a night is acceptable.

i say this because, while he may not be boris diaw out there, the guy has show he is a much better passing big man than anyone else we have... and that passing ability means other players involved.

fisher needs to have a center tandem of samuel dalembert and cole aldrich. these are your two best big men for various and sundry reasons.

dalembert/aldrich

secondly, there is no way you can have both stoudemire and melo out there-- they will always get in each others way. by default stat has to go to the bench. no shame in that-- he will devastate second units if given the chance.

melo/stoudemire

the point guard position is set:

calderon/prigioni/larkin

you need two defenders out there so who are the two best defenders the knicks have at the shooting guard and forward positions? looks to me like shumpert and quincy acy though i'd like to see more of acy.

starters:

dalembert
melo
acy
calderon
shumpert

bench:

aldrich
stoudemire
i haven't seen cleanthony early play but i pencil him in on what i have heard of his defense
hardaway or jr smith-- both looked lost out there and don't defend so i hold my nose on this one
prigioni or larkin

falling out of the rotation is bargnani

And Jason Smith goes to the NBDL? Or China?
Didn't you at least get a chubby watching the Smith brothers connect on those two buckets in the first half for Jason? Two dimes for JR!

You're right. Somewhere tkf is chuckling.

all preseason i kept hearing "jason smith jason smith"

he was overmatched by gibson and gasol... he looked like a sacrificial lamb. he needs to work on his trunk and lower body if he's going to defend frontcourt players.

the offense was a hot mess reminiscent of games payed on the 86th street courts-- yes that bad.

Couple more bad games and he should officially change his name to Jason Smfh

Vmart
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10/30/2014  4:35 PM
gunsnewing wrote:
Vmart wrote:I believe you start your best players. Last game I feel the starters got an early hook. To early Fisher needs to get the starters playing big minutes 38 minutes a game. There is time after starting where you send one to the bench and ride the other. So I don't see the need to bench Amare he is your best inside presence. I don't understand why you would want to have him coming off the bench make absolutely no sense. Unless you want the Knicks to become a total perimeter chucking team.

I hear what you are saying about becoming a jumpshooting team without Amare in there. I just don't think you can at Amare and Melo together to start games. Amare will get his because he scores inside so effortlessly. Melo will have to work harder. Melo has his favorite spots it just so happens that Amare occupies the same spots.

You rarely if ever see a team where the 2 best offensive players are at the SF & PF spots. Lebron and Bosh but bosh had to become a role player and either him and lebron had to play center at times.

This all goes back to Phil's initial accessment of the Knicks when he called us "Clumsy".

I think they were trying to avoid this but then Amare complained to Fisher and he caved in. But last night showed how much we need Amare's production off the bench. Melo is not going to the bench that's for certain

Your putting to much into that myth that Amare and Melo can't play together. Melo is more versatile than you give him credit for. That is so ridiculous it's like saying Jabbar and Worthy or Bird and McHale can't play together at the same time.

Your running and executing plays. They are not occupying the same spot on the floor.

Finestrg
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10/30/2014  5:44 PM    LAST EDITED: 10/30/2014  5:45 PM
Vmart wrote:
gunsnewing wrote:
Vmart wrote:I believe you start your best players. Last game I feel the starters got an early hook. To early Fisher needs to get the starters playing big minutes 38 minutes a game. There is time after starting where you send one to the bench and ride the other. So I don't see the need to bench Amare he is your best inside presence. I don't understand why you would want to have him coming off the bench make absolutely no sense. Unless you want the Knicks to become a total perimeter chucking team.

I hear what you are saying about becoming a jumpshooting team without Amare in there. I just don't think you can at Amare and Melo together to start games. Amare will get his because he scores inside so effortlessly. Melo will have to work harder. Melo has his favorite spots it just so happens that Amare occupies the same spots.

You rarely if ever see a team where the 2 best offensive players are at the SF & PF spots. Lebron and Bosh but bosh had to become a role player and either him and lebron had to play center at times.

This all goes back to Phil's initial accessment of the Knicks when he called us "Clumsy".

I think they were trying to avoid this but then Amare complained to Fisher and he caved in. But last night showed how much we need Amare's production off the bench. Melo is not going to the bench that's for certain

Your putting to much into that myth that Amare and Melo can't play together. Melo is more versatile than you give him credit for. That is so ridiculous it's like saying Jabbar and Worthy or Bird and McHale can't play together at the same time.

Your running and executing plays. They are not occupying the same spot on the floor.

Completely agree. There's no reason it can't work. Negative propaganda generated by the media and those who want the Knicks to fail (jerkoffs like Barkley, etc.). Nothing more. We need to stick with it now and dispel the myth...We've seen plenty of times when it did work just fine. Amar'e just got snakebite by many injuries the past few years -- only reason we haven't seen a larger sample. Excellent example with Bird and McHale btw..

Just hit me in the shower -- the real thing this team lacks is leadership. I mean true honest to goodness LEADERSHIP. Melo's a very good player but he's just not the type of player to rally the guys (a guy like JR who's ready to give up on the system already) and say, "look, stay the course. Buy in. We can do it," etc... For the money we paid him, I think he needs to step up and assume that role. And he needs to do it quick. He's just too much of a soldier. Need to step up now buddy and help lead...Maybe Fisher should name him captain, along with Amar'e. I've heard this mentioned recently... Maybe force them into a spot of leadership. Funny thing from this offseason -- remember Melo telling a story of how Fisher wanted guys to all line up and take a step across a line on the floor if they're prepared to do everything it takes to be a good teammate and win (something like that)? I distinctly remember Melo saying something like "we all looked at each other, no one wanted to take the first step but then we all took the step together." Remember that? it was something like that...WTF kinda response is that?? I betcha that wasn't the response Fish was looking for. I bet Fish wanted Melo to step over that line before he even finished his sentence. I mean really Melo? What the hell are you doing looking around? Step up, step over the line! This is your team now, sink or swim. Not sure he's doing all the little things to get this all going in the right direction. I mean think about it -- if guys aren't seeing Melo fully buy in, why would they?

gunsnewing
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10/30/2014  6:00 PM    LAST EDITED: 10/30/2014  6:01 PM
I find it hilarious that 5yrs later we are still arguing if Melo and amare works
Finestrg
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10/30/2014  6:49 PM
It's the cards we were dealt here, man. This is the team, like it or not.
CrushAlot
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10/30/2014  7:28 PM
dk7th wrote:
BRIGGS wrote:After taking a hard look at Dalembart--hes a 15 minute player. Cole on the other had will give us the foundation of rebounding and defense every night at the C spot. Say whatever you want this guy rebounds the ball--he did it last year when he got the minutes and I think he can really put up big rebounding numbers if given 33-35 minutes. Is it goingf to turn us into a 50 win team--no. Will it make us better---yes.

i don't where you get just 15 minutes from the guy. he needs to be out there almost twice that amount, but i would think 24 minutes a night is acceptable.

i say this because, while he may not be boris diaw out there, the guy has show he is a much better passing big man than anyone else we have... and that passing ability means other players involved.

fisher needs to have a center tandem of samuel dalembert and cole aldrich. these are your two best big men for various and sundry reasons.

dalembert/aldrich

secondly, there is no way you can have both stoudemire and melo out there-- they will always get in each others way. by default stat has to go to the bench. no shame in that-- he will devastate second units if given the chance.

melo/stoudemire

the point guard position is set:

calderon/prigioni/larkin

you need two defenders out there so who are the two best defenders the knicks have at the shooting guard and forward positions? looks to me like shumpert and quincy acy though i'd like to see more of acy.

starters:

dalembert
melo
acy
calderon
shumpert

bench:

aldrich
stoudemire
i haven't seen cleanthony early play but i pencil him in on what i have heard of his defense
hardaway or jr smith-- both looked lost out there and don't defend so i hold my nose on this one
prigioni or larkin

falling out of the rotation is bargnani


I agree about Dalembert needing to be out there. In addition to his passing he is a good defender and shot blocker.
I'm tired,I'm tired, I'm so tired right now......Kristaps Porzingis 1/3/18
EnySpree
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10/30/2014  7:36 PM
WaltLongmire wrote:
EnySpree wrote:nobody istalking about the game....

truth...dalembert was one of our best player last night.

truth....cole alrichis lucky to still be in the nba. hes not very good.

reading the stat sheet does not tell the story.

Dalembert was fine last night. I don't mind splitting the minutes between Sam and Cole, though.

Chris Smith is not someone you want patrolling the paint.

You mean jason smith.... yeah he was horrible last night too

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