MaTT4281 wrote:

nixluva wrote:Here ya go guys!

Awesome! Cleanthony looking pretty tenacious out there. Even Jose looked pretty quick on that defensive drill around the perimeter.

Shump's got his hair back - Sampson returns!

I like that drill of them having to hustle back on D to stop a transition basket after scoring. Drill it make it a habit.

A lot of basic fundamentals being worked on in practice. Can't wait until my B&G club youth basketball season starts.

TripleThreat wrote:

nixluva wrote:Now we can see just what many of us have been saying about the difference between GREAT coaching and mediocre coaching. I think there is a coherence to the instruction and attention to detail that makes all the difference. It's more than just saying this is what we want to do on D. It's also about the footwork, energy, aggression, use of your hands, trust in teammates and keeping your awareness. They're being taught to work as a unit. We must remember that this is the type of camp that Phil Jackson has run all these years for his teams. So to all the naysayers and doubters this is what you get with Phil being here. Not this idea that he's just here to collect a check!!!

I just don't think the coaching issue is the be all/end all that some make it to be.

It's just easy to point at the coaching and stick a finger at it and say, "Hey, that's the entire problem right there"

I distinctly remember when D'Antoni got the ax and back then, when plenty of Anti-Woodson folks now were lauding Woodson as the new savior.

It's not like suddenly Fisher and Zen Master are pushing concepts completely foreign to these players. These players have played organized basketball pretty much their whole lives.

Any "system" can work if you have the talent and everyone buys in and everyone puts forth the effort. We will never really know if D'Antoni's system could/would work, since there was always a talent deficiency, then Melo wanted him off the Knicks and simply dogged it to get him ousted.

Back then, it was "See look Woodson can get Melo motivated" and some happy horse**** like that. No, Melo had no choice but to play hard then, because if you get your last coach dumped, and you get the coach you want, you have no choice other wise you get labeled a coach killer or coach poison like Kobe Bryant. The heavy financial investment in Jackson and Fisher mean they aren't going anywhere anytime soon, so players have no choice but to buy in.

Basic team basketball and fundamentals is what this team should have been doing a long time ago. As the franchise player, on the player side, Melo should be the first to set the right example and enforce that. But he didn't, he hasn't and he has shown after more than a decade in the league, that he won't.

Jackson and Fisher are only doing what a dozen other coaches and GM candidates would do, only this time, STAT is playing for his next contract and Melo has no choice but to buy in, because if people are going to blame someone here now, it won't be Phil Jackson and his 11 rings.

You don't need a 60 million dollar splash GM when your franchise player actually acts like a leader.

Don't get me wrong, there were lots of things I didn't like about Woodson, but this constant "Let's just dump all this **** on the coach's lap BUT LET'S NOT TALK ABOUT this team has zero players who are real leaders and should self motivate but won't because they just don't give a **** enough about winning" theme is mind boggling.

Nothing amused me more than after the Pistons won the ring, years later, after those players decline and drove out coach after coach, Charles Barkley finally said that at some point, you have to stop blaming the coaching and look at the constant, the players.

I think Woody had some good points but he and his weak staff just can't be compared to what we have now. NO!!! All coaching is not alike. I love MDA but he has his weaknesses too. One being if you don't have a GM who is willing to work with him he's going to be useless. MDA needs players who will listen and have a certain maturity no matter what age. MDA also works best with a good PG at the least. So the GM is really important to match with MDA but still he isn't going to try very hard to get into a players head.

IMO Woody just isn't on the same level as even MDA much less a Carlisle or Popovich. So now we get to see how Phil does things. This staff is FULLY aware of exactly how Phil prepares his teams and that preparation is a HUGE reason his teams play so well. In the Triangle the Coach isn't constantly barking plays. It's a system where the players come fully prepared to play and think the game. So these fundamentals and concepts they're teaching are central to team success. So don't underestimate the importance of coaching in this case. Tex Winter was a stickler for fundamentals and so are all of our coaches coming from that system. The attention to detail will make a huge difference from here on.

This one though is different. Fisher is preparing these guys from the ground with basics first. All the other coaches assumed these guys already had that in the pockets. That is a great thing Fisher is doing, but it's more an indictment on the players who should already have some of these concepts already broken down.

But at the end of the day, just win games. And that begins in roughly 4 days.

nixluva wrote:

knickscity wrote:At the end of the day the only thing that matters is winning. While I certainly have enjoyed watching the training camp segments, I've enjoyed the ones in years past as well. They've all looked prepared to do what they want to accomplish.

This one though is different. Fisher is preparing these guys from the ground with basics first. All the other coaches assumed these guys already had that in the pockets. That is a great thing Fisher is doing, but it's more an indictment on the players who should already have some of these concepts already broken down.

But at the end of the day, just win games. And that begins in roughly 4 days.

I disagree with this a bit. Tex Winter NEVER took fundamentals for granted and that was passed to Phil who has continued to press the importance of fundamentals because he knows how important it is to winning. It's been my contention that all coaching is not equal and that it can have a huge impact on whether you get the most out of your roster's talent or not. This doesn't mean that players don't have responsibility for what they do, but it's the coaching staff that lays the foundation for what is going to be the foundation and culture a team is based on. Human nature is to be lazy and have the attitude that "you've got it" and don't need to focus on the basics and proper technique.

Sometimes you can get away with things if you have a situation like we had with Kidd on the court and lots of vets. Woody didn't really have to do much because he had leadership on his roster. Last year he was exposed cuz he and his sorry staff couldn't command the respect of the players and get them to execute and play with discipline. The lack of emphasis on fundamentals and such really showed in games. I said all last year that you can tell when a team is well coached and last year's team was not well coached. The players were not prepared for key situations in games and it led to losses. The confusion on D was another example of poor coaching.

Now maybe we'll see the real potential of the talent we have in addition to having a system that is more sustainable than when we won 54 games. I've believed that this team has more talent than we've seen on the court due to the poor coaching these players have received and other issues. Maybe now we can see talent maximized as opposed to minimized by inept coaching.

I think where the thinking fails is in makeup. Woody knew early in the season it was a failure, especially when he constantly said..."this isnt the same team"....in other words "I dont have intelligent baskletball players, guys who can get it done on the court....true vets". But make no mistake the same way some felt before last year they should be successful, quite a few knew the opposite. The makeup didnt allow for success. Just too easy to predict, no different than D'antoni requiring a pg to be successful...yet never has one on the roster....doom.

Woody relies on vets to mend in broken areas. thats not exposure, thats how he coaches similar to how many do, but make mistake he's had measures of success despite not having the best the league has to offer. He hasnt had Kobe's or Shaqs or Tim Duncan's to coach. It ALWAYS comes down to your personnel, the players are the ones who get it done. Spoelstra doesnt make the finals every year WITHOUT LeBron. Phil doesnt win without absolute best talent either.

This team doesnt have any of that, but their measure of success should be different and expectation tempered. You cant expect to see something Spurs related whose core has been planted for well over a decade from a team formed in just a few months which likely wont be the same the following year. Expectations really need to be tempered.

Risky move, as it goes against the grain, but the story shall be told starting October 8.

nixluva wrote:Can't give credit to Woody for basically limiting his offense to ISO Melo. Woody was showing signs of being a fraud even before last years disaster. He had talent but didn't do a good job getting the most from that talent. If players were confused out on the floor that is a reflection on the coach and not just the players. He's the one that has to recognize what his players are weak at and work on it. The better coaches are able to maximize what they have.

This isnt true. iso melo was the seconds left on the shot clock play, not the actual game plan. you have acknowledged this with the myriads of videos showing the different plays Woodson had during the 54 win season. Woodson not only got the most out of them, they overachieved. way too many folks were shocked the Knicks offense could remain that high for an entire regular season....but it did.

Woodson did what you're suggesting coaches should do. Woodson is a good coach. His teams records under him is proof of that. teams have improved in both places he's been as the head coach.

Didnt Woodson challenge melo to come into camp in better shape? yes. Did he challenge his other two high priced players to better their games? yes. Woodson is also on record as expressing to Shumpert the need to get his pg skills up. All these things are documented. The difference tho was the roster, that had components for success vs one that didnt.

nixluva wrote:Yes it's also important to have a good GM as well. A GM can screw his coach as well as a coach can let his players down. I agree we had a problem with both. Now we have a better GM and tho unproven I think Fish will be a better coach. Certainly as a team Phil n Fish are more in sync and that should lead to better results. Moreover these guys have been together for multiple titles. IMO there is no comparison between This regime and last years regime. It's one of the main reasons I think this team can challenge for the Division.

I just cannot place anyone with zero experience over someone who has experience, especially before any basketballs have been tossed for a tip off. A Supervisor (coach) moving up to manager is no small task, and previous experience doesnt automatically place them in the ranks of guys who has done it. Player turned coach same thing imo.

Fisher certainly was NOT the key component to the Lakers success, but he played important parts. Phil wasnt either, and even looking at both his regimes...they both were broken up at the apex of winning. Totally unheard of stuff.

But one thing that I believe does favors Phil and Fisher is that this team has gone a long time without legit success, so any measure of that will be favorable to them as far as job performance. Kinda why Phil recently talked about the "journey" vs "the ring" when asked about winning a title in NY. it's called tempered expectations.

TeamBall wrote:

knickscity wrote:This isnt true. iso melo was the seconds left on the shot clock play, not the actual game plan. you have acknowledged this with the myriads of videos showing the different plays Woodson had during the 54 win season. Woodson not only got the most out of them, they overachieved. way too many folks were shocked the Knicks offense could remain that high for an entire regular season....but it did.

As well as the only play we ran down the stretch of close games more often than not.

TeamBall wrote:

knickscity wrote:

TeamBall wrote:

knickscity wrote:This isnt true. iso melo was the seconds left on the shot clock play, not the actual game plan. you have acknowledged this with the myriads of videos showing the different plays Woodson had during the 54 win season. Woodson not only got the most out of them, they overachieved. way too many folks were shocked the Knicks offense could remain that high for an entire regular season....but it did.

As well as the only play we ran down the stretch of close games more often than not.

What wrong with that? He was actually pretty good at it. Even Phil stated since coming in it's a luxury to have that bailout option.

I think our record last season - in this close games in particular - show that there is plenty wrong with that. Surely this forum and the many people here that attacked Melo for his lack of a "clutch gene" would agree with that.

The late game wasnt the issue...having a gassed player from carrying the team for the first 30+ minutes he played on top of having to close the game was the issue.

the 54 win team certainly enjoyed melo's scoring but those guys scored as well...not so much last year, thus why they lost 22 games by double figures.

TeamBall wrote:

knickscity wrote:

TeamBall wrote:

knickscity wrote:

TeamBall wrote:

knickscity wrote:This isnt true. iso melo was the seconds left on the shot clock play, not the actual game plan. you have acknowledged this with the myriads of videos showing the different plays Woodson had during the 54 win season. Woodson not only got the most out of them, they overachieved. way too many folks were shocked the Knicks offense could remain that high for an entire regular season....but it did.

As well as the only play we ran down the stretch of close games more often than not.

What wrong with that? He was actually pretty good at it. Even Phil stated since coming in it's a luxury to have that bailout option.

I think our record last season - in this close games in particular - show that there is plenty wrong with that. Surely this forum and the many people here that attacked Melo for his lack of a "clutch gene" would agree with that.

The late game wasnt the issue...having a gassed player from carrying the team for the first 30+ minutes he played on top of having to close the game was the issue.

the 54 win team certainly enjoyed melo's scoring but those guys scored as well...not so much last year, thus why they lost 22 games by double figures.

While I agree with the problem of Melo being gassed, the late game was most certainly an issue. How is not an issue that Woodson couldn't draw up a play in the final seconds of the game? Even if he was giving it to a gassed Melo, why not get him open so all he has to do is catch and shoot instead of trying to shake loose a defender?

Sometimes Jordan passed...ask Kerr and Paxson.

Kobe sometimes lobbed it down to Shaq, but usually shot it himself through a series of foot moves and postups..

Lebron and Durant prefer to drive to the cup with either a pass or a shot for themselves.