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OT: Hawks Selling Team Because of "Offensive" Emails...
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BRIGGS
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9/8/2014  3:31 PM    LAST EDITED: 9/8/2014  3:32 PM
smackeddog wrote:Also their GM, Ferry is being disciplined by the nba- in a conference call with 7 other Hawk figures, he repeated a line from a report they had done that about Deng and said Deng "had some african in him". No idea what the f*** that is meant to mean. Personally, I think thats probably more damaging as Ferry is in a recruiting role.

Edit:

Just found the full quote:

He's still a young guy overall. He's a good guy overall.

But he's not perfect. He's got some African in him.

And I don't say that in a bad way

Still no idea what the hell it means.

I think what he meant was referring to the comments the owners had used in terms of fan-base 2 years prior(the email that made the owner resign/sell). You'd have to go back as they were talking about their fan base but I believe it was in the context presented to him by his boss initially. I do not think ferry was using it detrimentally in the context that was used but it can sound really poor in general terms. Now does a player who has a 90mm $ contract who gets caught using a racist remark or perceived racist remark in private usage going to have his contract voided? There has to be a reasonable threshold level of toleration for verbal remarks that can be used against you. I think Streling was dramatically over the line and there was justifiable termination especially given his long poor history. These two guys on basis have no track records of racism nor do their words in context go that far over the line. In business people refer to whites Latinos African Americans or blacks Chinese or Asian age gender etc as demographics all the time.

RIP Crushalot😞
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DrAlphaeus
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9/8/2014  3:46 PM    LAST EDITED: 9/8/2014  3:50 PM
BRIGGS wrote:
smackeddog wrote:Also their GM, Ferry is being disciplined by the nba- in a conference call with 7 other Hawk figures, he repeated a line from a report they had done that about Deng and said Deng "had some african in him". No idea what the f*** that is meant to mean. Personally, I think thats probably more damaging as Ferry is in a recruiting role.

Edit:

Just found the full quote:

He's still a young guy overall. He's a good guy overall.

But he's not perfect. He's got some African in him.

And I don't say that in a bad way

Still no idea what the hell it means.

I think what he meant was referring to the comments the owners had used in terms of fan-base 2 years prior(the email that made the owner resign/sell). You'd have to go back as they were talking about their fan base but I believe it was in the context presented to him by his boss initially. I do not think ferry was using it detrimentally in the context that was used but it can sound really poor in general terms. Now does a player who has a 90mm $ contract who gets caught using a racist remark or perceived racist remark in private usage going to have his contract voided? There has to be a reasonable threshold level of toleration for verbal remarks that can be used against you. I think Streling was dramatically over the line and there was justifiable termination especially given his long poor history. These two guys on basis have no track records of racism nor do their words in context go that far over the line. In business people refer to whites Latinos African Americans or blacks Chinese or Asian age gender etc as demographics all the time.

BRIGGS, so you think that this "not perfect... African" comment by Ferry regarding Deng is a callback to Levenson's discussion on increasing box seats sales two years earlier? Meaning that a Sudanese-British player who went to Blair Academy is in part of could have contributed to the hip-hop & black cheerleader "problem" in attracting white upper class Georgians to the arena?

I agree, demographics and US entertainment biz strategy are busom buddies, but I'm surprised you can glean the context of this weird quote in isolation.

Again, the only thing I can see right now that isn't explicitly racist against black people in general is some idea of a continental "African" style of ball playing — think Manute Bol not Hakeem — a la the "soft Euro" label.

Baba Booey 2016 — "It's Silly Season"
BRIGGS
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9/8/2014  3:55 PM
DrAlphaeus wrote:
BRIGGS wrote:
smackeddog wrote:Also their GM, Ferry is being disciplined by the nba- in a conference call with 7 other Hawk figures, he repeated a line from a report they had done that about Deng and said Deng "had some african in him". No idea what the f*** that is meant to mean. Personally, I think thats probably more damaging as Ferry is in a recruiting role.

Edit:

Just found the full quote:

He's still a young guy overall. He's a good guy overall.

But he's not perfect. He's got some African in him.

And I don't say that in a bad way

Still no idea what the hell it means.

I think what he meant was referring to the comments the owners had used in terms of fan-base 2 years prior(the email that made the owner resign/sell). You'd have to go back as they were talking about their fan base but I believe it was in the context presented to him by his boss initially. I do not think ferry was using it detrimentally in the context that was used but it can sound really poor in general terms. Now does a player who has a 90mm $ contract who gets caught using a racist remark or perceived racist remark in private usage going to have his contract voided? There has to be a reasonable threshold level of toleration for verbal remarks that can be used against you. I think Streling was dramatically over the line and there was justifiable termination especially given his long poor history. These two guys on basis have no track records of racism nor do their words in context go that far over the line. In business people refer to whites Latinos African Americans or blacks Chinese or Asian age gender etc as demographics all the time.

BRIGGS, so you think that this "not perfect... African" comment by Ferry regarding Deng is a callback to Levenson's discussion on increasing box seats sales two years earlier? Meaning that a Sudanese-British player who went to Blair Academy is in part of could have contributed to the hip-hop & black cheerleader "problem" in attracting white upper class Georgians to the arena?

I agree, demographics and US entertainment biz strategy are busom buddies, but I'm surprised you can glean the context of this weird quote in isolation.

Again, the only thing I can see right now that isn't explicitly racist against black people in general is some idea of a continental "African" style of ball playing — think Manute Bol not Hakeem — a la the "soft Euro" label.

I think he used his words in a business sense and there was no malignant racism in there.

RIP Crushalot😞
NardDogNation
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9/8/2014  3:59 PM    LAST EDITED: 9/8/2014  4:26 PM
DrAlphaeus wrote:Interesting. I read the email and while brutally honest, I can't say I was surprised or personally offended... US business, particularly in entertainment, is really big about chasing this or that demographic or psychographic, with all the racism, sexism, and ageism that goes with it... but the profit motive has a way of "whitewashing" these discussions, if you will pardon the pun.

But I've never really been to the real South — never been anywhere between northern Va. and Tampa Bay, partially because I've internalized a similar sort of thinking. Not a place I'd be welcome. But maybe because this guy was all "no tolerance" when Sterling's drama went on, he sealed his own fate... or like y'all said, just wants to get out.

I just don't know how accurate he is about the money not being there in the black community. I thought there were a lot of black dollars down there up for grabs. Or all those folks are relocated Knicks fans! Maybe the economic failures is more of a testament to a failure of their on-court product, coupled with a failure of outreach due to the cynical assumptions that this email reveals.

Corporate dollars is where the money is at because they'd be moreso inclined to purchase season tickets at premium dollar to wine and dine clients. The problem is that those same corporate types (and likely their clients) perceive all Black people to be what they see in the movies. As a result, the idea of being surrounded by 15,000 Black people becomes an uncomfortable proposition. Improving the product my change some of that....but I don't think it'll make an impact in changing the underlying culture that forces Levenson to have these considerations.

NardDogNation
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9/8/2014  4:02 PM
smackeddog wrote:Also their GM, Ferry is being disciplined by the nba- in a conference call with 7 other Hawk figures, he repeated a line from a report they had done that about Deng and said Deng "had some african in him". No idea what the f*** that is meant to mean. Personally, I think thats probably more damaging as Ferry is in a recruiting role.

Edit:

Just found the full quote:

He's still a young guy overall. He's a good guy overall.

But he's not perfect. He's got some African in him.

And I don't say that in a bad way

Still no idea what the hell it means.

LMAO. That made me have a good chuckle because of how awful it sounds on the surface. I'm not sure that context for the statement would make it any better. The good news is that I think Al Horford and Paul Millsap might just be up for grabs now, LOL. 2015/2016, here we come!

DrAlphaeus
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9/8/2014  4:17 PM    LAST EDITED: 9/8/2014  4:19 PM
BRIGGS wrote:
DrAlphaeus wrote:
BRIGGS wrote:
smackeddog wrote:Also their GM, Ferry is being disciplined by the nba- in a conference call with 7 other Hawk figures, he repeated a line from a report they had done that about Deng and said Deng "had some african in him". No idea what the f*** that is meant to mean. Personally, I think thats probably more damaging as Ferry is in a recruiting role.

Edit:

Just found the full quote:

He's still a young guy overall. He's a good guy overall.

But he's not perfect. He's got some African in him.

And I don't say that in a bad way

Still no idea what the hell it means.

I think what he meant was referring to the comments the owners had used in terms of fan-base 2 years prior(the email that made the owner resign/sell). You'd have to go back as they were talking about their fan base but I believe it was in the context presented to him by his boss initially. I do not think ferry was using it detrimentally in the context that was used but it can sound really poor in general terms. Now does a player who has a 90mm $ contract who gets caught using a racist remark or perceived racist remark in private usage going to have his contract voided? There has to be a reasonable threshold level of toleration for verbal remarks that can be used against you. I think Streling was dramatically over the line and there was justifiable termination especially given his long poor history. These two guys on basis have no track records of racism nor do their words in context go that far over the line. In business people refer to whites Latinos African Americans or blacks Chinese or Asian age gender etc as demographics all the time.

BRIGGS, so you think that this "not perfect... African" comment by Ferry regarding Deng is a callback to Levenson's discussion on increasing box seats sales two years earlier? Meaning that a Sudanese-British player who went to Blair Academy is in part of could have contributed to the hip-hop & black cheerleader "problem" in attracting white upper class Georgians to the arena?

I agree, demographics and US entertainment biz strategy are busom buddies, but I'm surprised you can glean the context of this weird quote in isolation.

Again, the only thing I can see right now that isn't explicitly racist against black people in general is some idea of a continental "African" style of ball playing — think Manute Bol not Hakeem — a la the "soft Euro" label.

I think he used his words in a business sense and there was no malignant racism in there.

"But he's not perfect. He's got some African in him." Wasn't the context "basketball" versus "business"? How does a discussion about his attributes as a player then jump into a box seats discussion?

Well, genetically I imagine the guy is damn near 100% African, let alone have "some" African in him. I don't know if they are talking about how "African" he is culturally?

If "African" is some sort of shorthand for playing style, then I guess that wouldn't be "malignant racism" — that is, about as "benignly" racist as the "Euro" tag. But it's hard to see how someone born in Africa that's part of a predominantly black field of players is the straw on the camel's back that would particularly scare white Georgians.

Baba Booey 2016 — "It's Silly Season"
NardDogNation
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9/8/2014  4:21 PM
DrAlphaeus wrote:
NardDogNation wrote:
MX25 wrote:How is this any different from MLB/Bud Selig diversity program. MLB has programs designed to get more black kids playing baseball since # of black guys in mob is way down. Is that racist? SMH

...because Bud Selig's program is inherently aimed at being inclusive. Levenson's game plan was to increase white attendance by trying to par down black attendance. Again, I don't necessarily see a problem with it because his motives are financially driven and his industry is in entertainment based. But you can't seriously believe that there is parity between the two situations.

It's an interesting comparison though. Black American (meaning native-born, Southern-descended "Anglo"-American black folks, versus Caribbean & Central American black folks) participation being way down is both an issue of an overcoming of past discrimination and relevance to the future. The color barriers of baseball post-WWII was a big part (if symbolically) of the Civil Rights struggles that followed the next decade, so to see that legacy not represented in both current players and fanbase has rung alarms to the old timers and the league to do something. Because it is a startling downturn for a quintessentially American demo to reject America's past time. Maybe North American sports are a zero-sum game and the NFL and NBA simply offer a more interesting product. Maybe Levenson needs to buy a piece of the Braves!

The Hawks thing is more about box seats and profits, so I'm not going to have the same sort of empathy for their situation, but I think MX25's comparison isn't apples and oranges. But the difference is that in the background of the Hawks' email is the faint echo of white supremacy, or white folks' wallet supremacy at least. That's the core difference.

EDIT: which is probably just a long-winded version of what you just said, haha.

Yeah, baseball seems like a dying sport regardless of whatever historic factors at play here. I love playing it but I much rather file taxes than watch the MLB. The fact that players can no longer juice sealed its fate to me as being unwatchable.

But I still disagree with MX25's assertion. Again, the MLB started that initiative with the hopes of being inclusive (even though we all should know that it is being done out of self-interest). Selig wasn't trying to exclude Hispanic and White ballplayers in the process of trying to drum up interest in African American communities. Levenson, however, was trying to figure out ways of increasing white/corporate attendance by curtailing Black attendance. I think the two are fundamentally different because of this clear distinction.

DrAlphaeus
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9/8/2014  4:26 PM
NardDogNation wrote:
DrAlphaeus wrote:
NardDogNation wrote:
MX25 wrote:How is this any different from MLB/Bud Selig diversity program. MLB has programs designed to get more black kids playing baseball since # of black guys in mob is way down. Is that racist? SMH

...because Bud Selig's program is inherently aimed at being inclusive. Levenson's game plan was to increase white attendance by trying to par down black attendance. Again, I don't necessarily see a problem with it because his motives are financially driven and his industry is in entertainment based. But you can't seriously believe that there is parity between the two situations.

It's an interesting comparison though. Black American (meaning native-born, Southern-descended "Anglo"-American black folks, versus Caribbean & Central American black folks) participation being way down is both an issue of an overcoming of past discrimination and relevance to the future. The color barriers of baseball post-WWII was a big part (if symbolically) of the Civil Rights struggles that followed the next decade, so to see that legacy not represented in both current players and fanbase has rung alarms to the old timers and the league to do something. Because it is a startling downturn for a quintessentially American demo to reject America's past time. Maybe North American sports are a zero-sum game and the NFL and NBA simply offer a more interesting product. Maybe Levenson needs to buy a piece of the Braves!

The Hawks thing is more about box seats and profits, so I'm not going to have the same sort of empathy for their situation, but I think MX25's comparison isn't apples and oranges. But the difference is that in the background of the Hawks' email is the faint echo of white supremacy, or white folks' wallet supremacy at least. That's the core difference.

EDIT: which is probably just a long-winded version of what you just said, haha.

Yeah, baseball seems like a dying sport regardless of whatever historic factors at play here. I love playing it but I much rather file taxes than watch the MLB. The fact that players can no longer juice sealed its fate to me as being unwatchable.

But I still disagree with MX25's assertion. Again, the MLB started that initiative with the hopes of being inclusive (even though we all should know that it is being done out of self-interest). Selig wasn't trying to exclude Hispanic and White ballplayers in the process of trying to drum up interest in African American communities. Levenson, however, was trying to figure out ways of increasing white/corporate attendance by curtailing Black attendance. I think the two are fundamentally different because of this clear distinction.

That's true. He was dealing with zero sum in terms of who is filling the seats, and that is expressing a preference for a fan of one race over another, even if he said he didn't personally believe in the perception. You could argue that's exactly that Sterling was saying to his jumpoff over tears in his juice.

Baba Booey 2016 — "It's Silly Season"
NardDogNation
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9/8/2014  4:39 PM
DrAlphaeus wrote:
BRIGGS wrote:
DrAlphaeus wrote:
BRIGGS wrote:
smackeddog wrote:Also their GM, Ferry is being disciplined by the nba- in a conference call with 7 other Hawk figures, he repeated a line from a report they had done that about Deng and said Deng "had some african in him". No idea what the f*** that is meant to mean. Personally, I think thats probably more damaging as Ferry is in a recruiting role.

Edit:

Just found the full quote:

He's still a young guy overall. He's a good guy overall.

But he's not perfect. He's got some African in him.

And I don't say that in a bad way

Still no idea what the hell it means.

I think what he meant was referring to the comments the owners had used in terms of fan-base 2 years prior(the email that made the owner resign/sell). You'd have to go back as they were talking about their fan base but I believe it was in the context presented to him by his boss initially. I do not think ferry was using it detrimentally in the context that was used but it can sound really poor in general terms. Now does a player who has a 90mm $ contract who gets caught using a racist remark or perceived racist remark in private usage going to have his contract voided? There has to be a reasonable threshold level of toleration for verbal remarks that can be used against you. I think Streling was dramatically over the line and there was justifiable termination especially given his long poor history. These two guys on basis have no track records of racism nor do their words in context go that far over the line. In business people refer to whites Latinos African Americans or blacks Chinese or Asian age gender etc as demographics all the time.

BRIGGS, so you think that this "not perfect... African" comment by Ferry regarding Deng is a callback to Levenson's discussion on increasing box seats sales two years earlier? Meaning that a Sudanese-British player who went to Blair Academy is in part of could have contributed to the hip-hop & black cheerleader "problem" in attracting white upper class Georgians to the arena?

I agree, demographics and US entertainment biz strategy are busom buddies, but I'm surprised you can glean the context of this weird quote in isolation.

Again, the only thing I can see right now that isn't explicitly racist against black people in general is some idea of a continental "African" style of ball playing — think Manute Bol not Hakeem — a la the "soft Euro" label.

I think he used his words in a business sense and there was no malignant racism in there.

"But he's not perfect. He's got some African in him." Wasn't the context "basketball" versus "business"? How does a discussion about his attributes as a player then jump into a box seats discussion?

Well, genetically I imagine the guy is damn near 100% African, let alone have "some" African in him. I don't know if they are talking about how "African" he is culturally?

If "African" is some sort of shorthand for playing style, then I guess that wouldn't be "malignant racism" — that is, about as "benignly" racist as the "Euro" tag. But it's hard to see how someone born in Africa that's part of a predominantly black field of players is the straw on the camel's back that would particularly scare white Georgians.

People form their associations based on superficial labels and/or conditions. It's sad but true. So if you're trying to appeal to a Caucasian base, particularly a Southern White base, the surest way to do that is by finding White players. Loul Deng is a decent ball player but if you're a businessman and have the opportunity to sign a comparable white player like Chandler Parsons or Gordon Hayward, you go with the latter two, which is what Ferry might've been getting at. At the end of the day, Danny Ferry doesn't make the rules so I can't be upset at him if this were the case.

dk7th
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9/8/2014  4:55 PM    LAST EDITED: 9/8/2014  4:59 PM
the hawks, like any other ball club, need to start winning meaningful games in the playoffs if this swine levenson wants to put asses in seats. levenson's biggest mistake was hiring mike woodson, followed by larry drew. before that lon kruger hello?!? at least stotts has improved in the last ten years.

you get stuck in mediocrity for as long as the hawks have-- when was the last time they made an impression in the second round?-- and eventually there is nothing to get excited about during the regular season when you know you get crushed in the varsity season.

racism and basketball as entertainment? if the hawks were winning would these issues even exist?

knicks win 38-43 games in 16-17. rose MUST shoot no more than 14 shots per game, defer to kp6 + melo, and have a usage rate of less than 25%
DrAlphaeus
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9/8/2014  5:01 PM
NardDogNation wrote:
DrAlphaeus wrote:Interesting. I read the email and while brutally honest, I can't say I was surprised or personally offended... US business, particularly in entertainment, is really big about chasing this or that demographic or psychographic, with all the racism, sexism, and ageism that goes with it... but the profit motive has a way of "whitewashing" these discussions, if you will pardon the pun.

But I've never really been to the real South — never been anywhere between northern Va. and Tampa Bay, partially because I've internalized a similar sort of thinking. Not a place I'd be welcome. But maybe because this guy was all "no tolerance" when Sterling's drama went on, he sealed his own fate... or like y'all said, just wants to get out.

I just don't know how accurate he is about the money not being there in the black community. I thought there were a lot of black dollars down there up for grabs. Or all those folks are relocated Knicks fans! Maybe the economic failures is more of a testament to a failure of their on-court product, coupled with a failure of outreach due to the cynical assumptions that this email reveals.

Corporate dollars is where the money is at because they'd be moreso inclined to purchase season tickets at premium dollar to wine and dine clients. The problem is that those same corporate types (and likely their clients) perceive all Black people to be what they see in the movies. As a result, the idea of being surrounded by 15,000 Black people becomes an uncomfortable proposition. Improving the product my change some of that....but I don't think it'll make an impact in changing the underlying culture that forces Levenson to have these considerations.

Yea, the comparison to DC was definitely telling there. Hey, if the Chocolate City can make sure there is more white chocolate than milk or dark chocolate, certainly Hotlanta can get a handle on this runaway Negro situation... pun intended.

Baba Booey 2016 — "It's Silly Season"
Nalod
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9/8/2014  5:04 PM
dk7th wrote:the hawks, like any other ball club, need to start winning meaningful games in the playoffs if this swine levenson wants to put asses in seats. levenson's biggest mistake was hiring mike woodson, followed by larry drew. before that lon kruger hello?!? at least stotts has improved in the last ten years.

you get stuck in mediocrity for as long as the hawks have-- when was the last time they made an impression in the second round?-- and eventually there is nothing to get excited about during the regular season when you know you get crushed in the varsity season.

racism and basketball as entertainment? if the hawks were winning would these issues even exist?

the knicks sold out for years not even making the playoffs. Why is he "Swine"???

NardDogNation
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9/8/2014  5:05 PM    LAST EDITED: 9/8/2014  5:11 PM
DrAlphaeus wrote:
NardDogNation wrote:
DrAlphaeus wrote:
NardDogNation wrote:
MX25 wrote:How is this any different from MLB/Bud Selig diversity program. MLB has programs designed to get more black kids playing baseball since # of black guys in mob is way down. Is that racist? SMH

...because Bud Selig's program is inherently aimed at being inclusive. Levenson's game plan was to increase white attendance by trying to par down black attendance. Again, I don't necessarily see a problem with it because his motives are financially driven and his industry is in entertainment based. But you can't seriously believe that there is parity between the two situations.

It's an interesting comparison though. Black American (meaning native-born, Southern-descended "Anglo"-American black folks, versus Caribbean & Central American black folks) participation being way down is both an issue of an overcoming of past discrimination and relevance to the future. The color barriers of baseball post-WWII was a big part (if symbolically) of the Civil Rights struggles that followed the next decade, so to see that legacy not represented in both current players and fanbase has rung alarms to the old timers and the league to do something. Because it is a startling downturn for a quintessentially American demo to reject America's past time. Maybe North American sports are a zero-sum game and the NFL and NBA simply offer a more interesting product. Maybe Levenson needs to buy a piece of the Braves!

The Hawks thing is more about box seats and profits, so I'm not going to have the same sort of empathy for their situation, but I think MX25's comparison isn't apples and oranges. But the difference is that in the background of the Hawks' email is the faint echo of white supremacy, or white folks' wallet supremacy at least. That's the core difference.

EDIT: which is probably just a long-winded version of what you just said, haha.

Yeah, baseball seems like a dying sport regardless of whatever historic factors at play here. I love playing it but I much rather file taxes than watch the MLB. The fact that players can no longer juice sealed its fate to me as being unwatchable.

But I still disagree with MX25's assertion. Again, the MLB started that initiative with the hopes of being inclusive (even though we all should know that it is being done out of self-interest). Selig wasn't trying to exclude Hispanic and White ballplayers in the process of trying to drum up interest in African American communities. Levenson, however, was trying to figure out ways of increasing white/corporate attendance by curtailing Black attendance. I think the two are fundamentally different because of this clear distinction.

That's true. He was dealing with zero sum in terms of who is filling the seats, and that is expressing a preference for a fan of one race over another, even if he said he didn't personally believe in the perception. You could argue that's exactly that Sterling was saying to his jumpoff over tears in his juice.

See, that's the thing: I thought Sterling's comments were far worse. The news only really aired the fluff of what he said e.g. not wanting his girlfriend around Magic Johnson or black people, not wanting her to bring Black people to his games, etc. What they didn't air was stuff where he suggested that Blacks were subhuman and should be treated as such. I had a problem with that because that kind of mentality lends itself to tangible issues like hiring practices, treatment of employees, voting habits, etc.

DrAlphaeus
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9/8/2014  5:15 PM
NardDogNation wrote:
DrAlphaeus wrote:
NardDogNation wrote:
DrAlphaeus wrote:
NardDogNation wrote:
MX25 wrote:How is this any different from MLB/Bud Selig diversity program. MLB has programs designed to get more black kids playing baseball since # of black guys in mob is way down. Is that racist? SMH

...because Bud Selig's program is inherently aimed at being inclusive. Levenson's game plan was to increase white attendance by trying to par down black attendance. Again, I don't necessarily see a problem with it because his motives are financially driven and his industry is in entertainment based. But you can't seriously believe that there is parity between the two situations.

It's an interesting comparison though. Black American (meaning native-born, Southern-descended "Anglo"-American black folks, versus Caribbean & Central American black folks) participation being way down is both an issue of an overcoming of past discrimination and relevance to the future. The color barriers of baseball post-WWII was a big part (if symbolically) of the Civil Rights struggles that followed the next decade, so to see that legacy not represented in both current players and fanbase has rung alarms to the old timers and the league to do something. Because it is a startling downturn for a quintessentially American demo to reject America's past time. Maybe North American sports are a zero-sum game and the NFL and NBA simply offer a more interesting product. Maybe Levenson needs to buy a piece of the Braves!

The Hawks thing is more about box seats and profits, so I'm not going to have the same sort of empathy for their situation, but I think MX25's comparison isn't apples and oranges. But the difference is that in the background of the Hawks' email is the faint echo of white supremacy, or white folks' wallet supremacy at least. That's the core difference.

EDIT: which is probably just a long-winded version of what you just said, haha.

Yeah, baseball seems like a dying sport regardless of whatever historic factors at play here. I love playing it but I much rather file taxes than watch the MLB. The fact that players can no longer juice sealed its fate to me as being unwatchable.

But I still disagree with MX25's assertion. Again, the MLB started that initiative with the hopes of being inclusive (even though we all should know that it is being done out of self-interest). Selig wasn't trying to exclude Hispanic and White ballplayers in the process of trying to drum up interest in African American communities. Levenson, however, was trying to figure out ways of increasing white/corporate attendance by curtailing Black attendance. I think the two are fundamentally different because of this clear distinction.

That's true. He was dealing with zero sum in terms of who is filling the seats, and that is expressing a preference for a fan of one race over another, even if he said he didn't personally believe in the perception. You could argue that's exactly that Sterling was saying to his jumpoff over tears in his juice.

See, that's the thing: I thought Sterling's comments were far worse. The news only really aired the fluff of what he said e.g. not wanting his girlfriend around Magic Johnson or black people, not wanting her to bring Black people to his games, etc. What they didn't air was stuff where he suggested that Blacks were subhuman and should be treated as such. I had a problem with that but no problem with him not wanting Blacks at his games with his whore.

Ha, OK... maybe not "exactly" then. But you know, that old argument "hey, I hate that is how things are but..." — that in particular reminded me of Sterling, if more believable with Levenson. But the counter there is Sterling wasn't sending an email to his ownership group, he was arguing in his kitchen. Don't remember explicitly the subhuman stuff but not hard to imagine it.

If you wanna jump off the Marxist/communist deep end anyone and have 3 hours to kill, you can hear a communist critique of the NBA as a big ol' minstrel show: http://bobavakian.net/talk4.html — Opinions there aren't necessarily shared by the Doctor, but whenever NBA's curious relationship to race rears its ugly head, it often remind me of this talk.

Baba Booey 2016 — "It's Silly Season"
NardDogNation
Posts: 27405
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9/8/2014  6:11 PM
DrAlphaeus wrote:
NardDogNation wrote:
DrAlphaeus wrote:
NardDogNation wrote:
DrAlphaeus wrote:
NardDogNation wrote:
MX25 wrote:How is this any different from MLB/Bud Selig diversity program. MLB has programs designed to get more black kids playing baseball since # of black guys in mob is way down. Is that racist? SMH

...because Bud Selig's program is inherently aimed at being inclusive. Levenson's game plan was to increase white attendance by trying to par down black attendance. Again, I don't necessarily see a problem with it because his motives are financially driven and his industry is in entertainment based. But you can't seriously believe that there is parity between the two situations.

It's an interesting comparison though. Black American (meaning native-born, Southern-descended "Anglo"-American black folks, versus Caribbean & Central American black folks) participation being way down is both an issue of an overcoming of past discrimination and relevance to the future. The color barriers of baseball post-WWII was a big part (if symbolically) of the Civil Rights struggles that followed the next decade, so to see that legacy not represented in both current players and fanbase has rung alarms to the old timers and the league to do something. Because it is a startling downturn for a quintessentially American demo to reject America's past time. Maybe North American sports are a zero-sum game and the NFL and NBA simply offer a more interesting product. Maybe Levenson needs to buy a piece of the Braves!

The Hawks thing is more about box seats and profits, so I'm not going to have the same sort of empathy for their situation, but I think MX25's comparison isn't apples and oranges. But the difference is that in the background of the Hawks' email is the faint echo of white supremacy, or white folks' wallet supremacy at least. That's the core difference.

EDIT: which is probably just a long-winded version of what you just said, haha.

Yeah, baseball seems like a dying sport regardless of whatever historic factors at play here. I love playing it but I much rather file taxes than watch the MLB. The fact that players can no longer juice sealed its fate to me as being unwatchable.

But I still disagree with MX25's assertion. Again, the MLB started that initiative with the hopes of being inclusive (even though we all should know that it is being done out of self-interest). Selig wasn't trying to exclude Hispanic and White ballplayers in the process of trying to drum up interest in African American communities. Levenson, however, was trying to figure out ways of increasing white/corporate attendance by curtailing Black attendance. I think the two are fundamentally different because of this clear distinction.

That's true. He was dealing with zero sum in terms of who is filling the seats, and that is expressing a preference for a fan of one race over another, even if he said he didn't personally believe in the perception. You could argue that's exactly that Sterling was saying to his jumpoff over tears in his juice.

See, that's the thing: I thought Sterling's comments were far worse. The news only really aired the fluff of what he said e.g. not wanting his girlfriend around Magic Johnson or black people, not wanting her to bring Black people to his games, etc. What they didn't air was stuff where he suggested that Blacks were subhuman and should be treated as such. I had a problem with that but no problem with him not wanting Blacks at his games with his whore.

Ha, OK... maybe not "exactly" then. But you know, that old argument "hey, I hate that is how things are but..." — that in particular reminded me of Sterling, if more believable with Levenson. But the counter there is Sterling wasn't sending an email to his ownership group, he was arguing in his kitchen. Don't remember explicitly the subhuman stuff but not hard to imagine it.

If you wanna jump off the Marxist/communist deep end anyone and have 3 hours to kill, you can hear a communist critique of the NBA as a big ol' minstrel show: http://bobavakian.net/talk4.html — Opinions there aren't necessarily shared by the Doctor, but whenever NBA's curious relationship to race rears its ugly head, it often remind me of this talk.

Yeah, I see what you're saying now. Seems like all of those comments are preceded with a disclaimer of some sort. All in all though, I don't think Levenson should be compelled to sell his team. I didn't think that Sterling should be compelled to sell his team either, if his sentiments were not reflected in his business practices but also understood the league's incentive in forcing a sale, regardless.

P.S., I tried listening to the clips you had in the link but it didn't work on my phone. What were they about?

NardDogNation
Posts: 27405
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9/8/2014  6:59 PM    LAST EDITED: 9/8/2014  7:03 PM
TripleThreat wrote:Effective public relations is that if you know something negative is about to hit you in public, to take control and release it yourself first, to control the spin and narrative and how the "story" is framed in the press. In exchange for giving a specific reporter or network the exclusive, usually they agree to let you spin the story in a way that tries to minimize the public damage done to you.

This isn't uncommon in sports ( i.e an owner or GM or player has to give an exclusive interview, in exchange, that writer/reporter or publication or network will choose to not talk about Issue X or release Gossip Item Y in trade.

The sad thing is, this does nothing to help actual diversity in pro sports. You can't offend a black person if you don't hire them. Or you hire them and push them into a corner where they can't hurt you. You can't beat a woman like Ray Rice if you simply don't get married, don't get a girlfriend and avoid women unless you pay them. ( Getting into a hooker scandal will go away, beating a woman will not) IMHO this kind of stuff only encourages pro franchises to further separate blacks from potential hiring just like the Ray Rice situation will be a cautionary tale for agents to tell players it's just better to hire some hookers than get a bunch of part time jump offs and wannabe groupies.

Dude, I understand the perspective of their being little incentive for a man to marry but your line of reasoning is one of the most ludicrous I've seen. The concept of marriage is cringe-worthy to me but at the end of the day, I want a family and a HEALTHY two-parent household is the best model to raise children in. Not to mention, there are obvious financial incentives....so long as the relationship lasts and the added benefit of not having to die alone. Most sane men won't sacrifice that because of the off chance that you might end up having to knock her on her ass.

And people don't hire minorities because of ascetics. One would think that their credentials and ability to further the companies goals would have some impact in the hiring process, would it not? Not hiring minorities because of the propensity for scandal is every bit as ridiculous as not hiring a Caucasian male because of the possibility he might rape a co-worker or embezzle money from the company.

CrushAlot
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9/8/2014  7:15 PM
TripleThreat wrote:Effective public relations is that if you know something negative is about to hit you in public, to take control and release it yourself first, to control the spin and narrative and how the "story" is framed in the press. In exchange for giving a specific reporter or network the exclusive, usually they agree to let you spin the story in a way that tries to minimize the public damage done to you.

This isn't uncommon in sports ( i.e an owner or GM or player has to give an exclusive interview, in exchange, that writer/reporter or publication or network will choose to not talk about Issue X or release Gossip Item Y in trade.

The sad thing is, this does nothing to help actual diversity in pro sports. You can't offend a black person if you don't hire them. Or you hire them and push them into a corner where they can't hurt you. You can't beat a woman like Ray Rice if you simply don't get married, don't get a girlfriend and avoid women unless you pay them. ( Getting into a hooker scandal will go away, beating a woman will not) IMHO this kind of stuff only encourages pro franchises to further separate blacks from potential hiring just like the Ray Rice situation will be a cautionary tale for agents to tell players it's just better to hire some hookers than get a bunch of part time jump offs and wannabe groupies.

Beating your wife/fiancé is a domestic violence/mental health issue. It isn't advice that a guy gets about hangers on from his agent.
I'm tired,I'm tired, I'm so tired right now......Kristaps Porzingis 1/3/18
DrAlphaeus
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9/8/2014  7:29 PM    LAST EDITED: 9/8/2014  7:32 PM
NardDogNation wrote:
DrAlphaeus wrote:
NardDogNation wrote:
DrAlphaeus wrote:
NardDogNation wrote:
DrAlphaeus wrote:
NardDogNation wrote:
MX25 wrote:How is this any different from MLB/Bud Selig diversity program. MLB has programs designed to get more black kids playing baseball since # of black guys in mob is way down. Is that racist? SMH

...because Bud Selig's program is inherently aimed at being inclusive. Levenson's game plan was to increase white attendance by trying to par down black attendance. Again, I don't necessarily see a problem with it because his motives are financially driven and his industry is in entertainment based. But you can't seriously believe that there is parity between the two situations.

It's an interesting comparison though. Black American (meaning native-born, Southern-descended "Anglo"-American black folks, versus Caribbean & Central American black folks) participation being way down is both an issue of an overcoming of past discrimination and relevance to the future. The color barriers of baseball post-WWII was a big part (if symbolically) of the Civil Rights struggles that followed the next decade, so to see that legacy not represented in both current players and fanbase has rung alarms to the old timers and the league to do something. Because it is a startling downturn for a quintessentially American demo to reject America's past time. Maybe North American sports are a zero-sum game and the NFL and NBA simply offer a more interesting product. Maybe Levenson needs to buy a piece of the Braves!

The Hawks thing is more about box seats and profits, so I'm not going to have the same sort of empathy for their situation, but I think MX25's comparison isn't apples and oranges. But the difference is that in the background of the Hawks' email is the faint echo of white supremacy, or white folks' wallet supremacy at least. That's the core difference.

EDIT: which is probably just a long-winded version of what you just said, haha.

Yeah, baseball seems like a dying sport regardless of whatever historic factors at play here. I love playing it but I much rather file taxes than watch the MLB. The fact that players can no longer juice sealed its fate to me as being unwatchable.

But I still disagree with MX25's assertion. Again, the MLB started that initiative with the hopes of being inclusive (even though we all should know that it is being done out of self-interest). Selig wasn't trying to exclude Hispanic and White ballplayers in the process of trying to drum up interest in African American communities. Levenson, however, was trying to figure out ways of increasing white/corporate attendance by curtailing Black attendance. I think the two are fundamentally different because of this clear distinction.

That's true. He was dealing with zero sum in terms of who is filling the seats, and that is expressing a preference for a fan of one race over another, even if he said he didn't personally believe in the perception. You could argue that's exactly that Sterling was saying to his jumpoff over tears in his juice.

See, that's the thing: I thought Sterling's comments were far worse. The news only really aired the fluff of what he said e.g. not wanting his girlfriend around Magic Johnson or black people, not wanting her to bring Black people to his games, etc. What they didn't air was stuff where he suggested that Blacks were subhuman and should be treated as such. I had a problem with that but no problem with him not wanting Blacks at his games with his whore.

Ha, OK... maybe not "exactly" then. But you know, that old argument "hey, I hate that is how things are but..." — that in particular reminded me of Sterling, if more believable with Levenson. But the counter there is Sterling wasn't sending an email to his ownership group, he was arguing in his kitchen. Don't remember explicitly the subhuman stuff but not hard to imagine it.

If you wanna jump off the Marxist/communist deep end anyone and have 3 hours to kill, you can hear a communist critique of the NBA as a big ol' minstrel show: http://bobavakian.net/talk4.html — Opinions there aren't necessarily shared by the Doctor, but whenever NBA's curious relationship to race rears its ugly head, it often remind me of this talk.

Yeah, I see what you're saying now. Seems like all of those comments are preceded with a disclaimer of some sort. All in all though, I don't think Levenson should be compelled to sell his team. I didn't think that Sterling should be compelled to sell his team either, if his sentiments were not reflected in his business practices but also understood the league's incentive in forcing a sale, regardless.

P.S., I tried listening to the clips you had in the link but it didn't work on my phone. What were they about?

Those "clips" are long as hell, prob won't work on a phone unless you have 4G/WiFi. Hard to summarize. If you feel like putting on a red beret and getting your comrade on while thinking about the NBA in a Marxist context: download to your phone for your next cardio workout and check it out! His voice can be annoying and there is a creepy cult of personality with his organization. That said, you can tell he's actually a basketball fan, and if you like disparate points of view, its worth a listen IMHO. I'm not a Marxist per se, but I think sometimes no one can really break down the culture of capitalism critically like a Marxist.

Baba Booey 2016 — "It's Silly Season"
NardDogNation
Posts: 27405
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9/8/2014  7:37 PM    LAST EDITED: 9/8/2014  8:30 PM
TripleThreat wrote:
NardDogNation wrote:
Dude, I understand the perspective of their being little incentive for a man to marry but your line of reasoning is one of the most ludicrous I've seen. The concept of marriage is cringe-worthy to me but at the end of the day, I want a family and a HEALTHY two-parent household is the best model to raise children in. Not to mention, there are obvious financial incentives....so long as the relationship lasts and the added benefit of not having to die alone. Most sane men won't sacrifice that because of the off chance that you might end up having to knock her on her ass.

And people don't hire minorities because of ascetics. One would think that their credentials and ability to further the companies goals would have some impact in the hiring process, would it not? Not hiring minorities because of the propensity for scandal is every bit as ridiculous as not hiring a Caucasian male because of the possibility he might rape a co-worker or embezzle money from the company.

If you actually want me to give a more expansive answer, it's that I am saying more agents and advisers would see the incentives in place to tell high profile American professional athletes to ignore the idea of marriage and children and settling down while their careers are active.

Most pro sports careers in America are very very short. I think the average NFL player is a bit under four seasons and the average NFL player in the top three rounds of the draft is something like six seasons.

On the end of agents and directors of player development on pro teams ( essentially the retired veterans hired to manage and keep rookies out of trouble) will see the incentive to push this. A young rookie player without a wife and kids is simply a much easier guy to manage. Agents don't have to worry about the demands of a wife of a player or a mother in law or having to try to find jobs for the wive's friends or cousins or whatnot.

I think a lot of athletes might take the stance - Why bother. Just focus on the career. Pay to bang out a hot chick every now and then. And just focus on playing good ball. If you get caught, it's a hooker, it's embarrassing, but you could beat or rape or throw a hooker off a bridge, and at the end of the day, society still sees her as a hooker. Even other women don't come running to the support of hookers. I'm not saying anyone should beat or rape or hurt any woman, nor any hooker, I am saying for a young pro athlete with a lot to lose, esp considering public perception and political correctness, it might be a safer bet than getting married, having the woman decide it's time to cash out, then smash her face into a brick wall and say you tried to kill her.

People are shaped by their experiences and perceptions. When Notre Dame fired Tyrone Willingham as football coach, there was a firestorm of bad PR and negative press. One of the black female regents even shaved her head in protest. Do you think Notre Dame ever wants to go through again? So what's the incentive to hire a black head coach when you feel two candidates might be on equal footing?

The NFL Rookie Symposium is essentially coaches and players, some former, telling rookies on how to avoid the 12 million ways someone can try to destroy your career and get you sued and get you on the cover of TMZ, and the other 12 million ways you can self inflict that on yourself and your franchise.

The marriage rate in America has declined now for a very long time, year after year. Fewer incentives for many people, esp men, to get married. How much more is that hyper realized by a young millionaire high profile athlete? I'm not saying all young players will do it, I simply am saying Ray Rice and other situations start to become cautionary tales that agents and advisers and team personnel and coaches will start to impart on players more and more.

You're looking at the rare instances where athletes have had public falling-outs with their significant other and are trying to generalize them. Not all women are Anna Benson or the whores commonly found on Basketball Wives. Also, let's not forget that Ray Rice brought this **** on himself. I don't buy the nonsense that his fiancé is some doey-eyed, Mother Teresa like person, given the fact she smacked him before they got on the elevator and stepped up to hit Ray again when the skirmish first started BUT he shouldn't have put himself in that situation anyway. At the same time, I refuse to co-op these ridiculous PC-narratives that get spun by the media. I just had to deal with Ray Lewis stand on his moral soap box to recycle the same tired lines about domestic abuse. And yes, that's the same Ray Lewis who regularly sounded like a psychopath throughout his career and may have even killed a dude.....that Ray Lewis....standing on a soap box.

As for the pro-not-hiring-minority-angle you're trying to work, I don't buy it. The fact is that there is possibility for scandal regardless of who you hire. I could just as easily point to something like the Jerry Sandusky scandal or Bernie Madoff scandal as reasons employers might be hesitant to hire Caucasians.

dk7th
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9/8/2014  8:21 PM    LAST EDITED: 9/8/2014  8:23 PM
Nalod wrote:
dk7th wrote:the hawks, like any other ball club, need to start winning meaningful games in the playoffs if this swine levenson wants to put asses in seats. levenson's biggest mistake was hiring mike woodson, followed by larry drew. before that lon kruger hello?!? at least stotts has improved in the last ten years.

you get stuck in mediocrity for as long as the hawks have-- when was the last time they made an impression in the second round?-- and eventually there is nothing to get excited about during the regular season when you know you get crushed in the varsity season.

racism and basketball as entertainment? if the hawks were winning would these issues even exist?

the knicks sold out for years not even making the playoffs. Why is he "Swine"???

metropolitan area has 20 million people and NYC is the business capital of the world. with plenty of corporate sh!tbags and general riffraff you can have a franchise that is as loose as a 65-year-old tijuana whore and still sell out.

atlanta area has a population of 4.7 million people. you have to work harder at being a draw, and that means treating the sport with enough respect to actually build a good team and have a cohesive front office on the same page. if levenson possesses the same "values" as that azzhole who owns the knicks then he will unleash a mediocre and marginally "entertaining" "product." but now i have seen everything-- a white owner using quasi-racist statements as a pretext to sell his interest at a potentially huge profit. if true levenson = swine.

meanwhile you know what's really entertaining: winning

knicks win 38-43 games in 16-17. rose MUST shoot no more than 14 shots per game, defer to kp6 + melo, and have a usage rate of less than 25%
OT: Hawks Selling Team Because of "Offensive" Emails...

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