smackeddog wrote:

mreinman wrote:its not that smart to guess and fling sh1t at the wall when there is excellent data that can think for us since many of us are not that good at it.

There is a reason why all teams and GM's are now heavily invested in advanced stats. But hey, how about we trade for Josh Smith. Or Bargs. Or Felton. Nick Young? Tyreke? Beas?

No - not anymore. Interesting that the players who are efficient are the ones that everyone wants.

Open your eyes and don't be scared of this new world.

And btw, I watch every single game as well.

That's my issue though- no data thinks for itself or thinks for us- it has to be weighted and interpreted by people, who based on their own opinions decide which data to value.

Morey is the Metrics King, but his offseason plan was "sign Melo!". Metrics are a tool, but they aren't the be all and end all. I like people exchanging opinions, theories, hunches, etc on these message boards- it would be dull as hell if everyone stopped doing that and just posted metrics, or weren't allowed to post their opinions because of a lack of data.

The eye test and metrics are both important. Opinions are fine but they should be researched and not just flung. Certain stats are irrefutable.

If we had someone with half a brain and just took a peak at stats, do you think that we would have traded for bargs? Of course not. The stats were screaming "bonehead move"

GustavBahler wrote:More upset that Dolan let these clowns make bball decisions for him than missing out on Lowry.

Darn Skippy

He has money guys making basketball decisions for him?

I guess Phil wasn't the one who c-blocked this deal stealth mode, love affair for Shump

Phil comes aboard delivers a mandate to make the playoffs.

Our chance at success lied in making this deal, oh well

I hope Dolan doesn't sabotage any future deals by using Mckinsey to check and balance Phil

Nalod wrote:I thought it was grunwald that was agsint the trade and spoke up?

Lowry would have been good this season but we would have had to pay him and while he was great in a contract year he has career inconsistancies.

There is a longer term plan here. WE are not privy to it but draft picks are more valuable now. Lowry was not going to put us in a position to contend.

imho, with lowry on the knicks, they easily make the playoffs last season and may have advanced.

i think that would've started a trickle down effect which would've seen melo take less money than he did. of course that's a big what if.

smackeddog wrote:

mreinman wrote:its not that smart to guess and fling sh1t at the wall when there is excellent data that can think for us since many of us are not that good at it.

There is a reason why all teams and GM's are now heavily invested in advanced stats. But hey, how about we trade for Josh Smith. Or Bargs. Or Felton. Nick Young? Tyreke? Beas?

No - not anymore. Interesting that the players who are efficient are the ones that everyone wants.

Open your eyes and don't be scared of this new world.

And btw, I watch every single game as well.

That's my issue though- no data thinks for itself or thinks for us- it has to be weighted and interpreted by people, who based on their own opinions decide which data to value.

Morey is the Metrics King, but his offseason plan was "sign Melo!". Metrics are a tool, but they aren't the be all and end all. I like people exchanging opinions, theories, hunches, etc on these message boards- it would be dull as hell if everyone stopped doing that and just posted metrics, or weren't allowed to post their opinions because of a lack of data.

Bonn1997 wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

mreinman wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

mreinman wrote:its not that smart to guess and fling sh1t at the wall when there is excellent data that can think for us since many of us are not that good at it.

There is a reason why all teams and GM's are now heavily invested in advanced stats. But hey, how about we trade for Josh Smith. Or Bargs. Or Felton. Nick Young? Tyreke? Beas?

No - not anymore. Interesting that the players who are efficient are the ones that everyone wants.

Open your eyes and don't be scared of this new world.

And btw, I watch every single game as well.

That's my issue though- no data thinks for itself or thinks for us- it has to be weighted and interpreted by people, who based on their own opinions decide which data to value.

Morey is the Metrics King, but his offseason plan was "sign Melo!". Metrics are a tool, but they aren't the be all and end all. I like people exchanging opinions, theories, hunches, etc on these message boards- it would be dull as hell if everyone stopped doing that and just posted metrics, or weren't allowed to post their opinions because of a lack of data.

The eye test and metrics are both important. Opinions are fine but they should be researched and not just flung. Certain stats are irrefutable.

If we had someone with half a brain and just took a peak at stats, do you think that we would have traded for bargs? Of course not. The stats were screaming "bonehead move"

We're agreed on Bargs! His awfulness transcends metrics and the eye test!

My opinion on Lowry is, he's a great player who I've liked for years (wished we could have traded Lin for him), but players usually perform better in contract years, especially passion-players like Lowry (players who seem to play better than they are when they get fired up)- do you honestly believe he's going to be even better this year than last? Plus you have to start looking at his age. For a player that depends on his athleticism, he doesn't have the best conditioned body- he will likely start to decline quickly in a few years.

He needs to be in the right environment to excel- the Raptors were that environment, but I'm not sure the Knicks would have been- this team tends to bring out the worst in people, though hopefully with Phil at the helm that will change.

But he's great value at $12 mil even if he just regresses towards his career average. I'd rather have Lowry at $12 mil per and someone like Millsap at $10 mil per than Melo alone at double that.

Absolutely! I would take Dragic or Lowry at half the price any day.

And, Lowry is going to regress at 28 and Melo is gonna stay healthy and play at peak?

And ... to think that we could have traded for Lowry instead of Bargs, we would have been REALLY good, even with maxMelo.

Bonn1997 wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

mreinman wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

mreinman wrote:its not that smart to guess and fling sh1t at the wall when there is excellent data that can think for us since many of us are not that good at it.

There is a reason why all teams and GM's are now heavily invested in advanced stats. But hey, how about we trade for Josh Smith. Or Bargs. Or Felton. Nick Young? Tyreke? Beas?

No - not anymore. Interesting that the players who are efficient are the ones that everyone wants.

Open your eyes and don't be scared of this new world.

And btw, I watch every single game as well.

That's my issue though- no data thinks for itself or thinks for us- it has to be weighted and interpreted by people, who based on their own opinions decide which data to value.

Morey is the Metrics King, but his offseason plan was "sign Melo!". Metrics are a tool, but they aren't the be all and end all. I like people exchanging opinions, theories, hunches, etc on these message boards- it would be dull as hell if everyone stopped doing that and just posted metrics, or weren't allowed to post their opinions because of a lack of data.

The eye test and metrics are both important. Opinions are fine but they should be researched and not just flung. Certain stats are irrefutable.

If we had someone with half a brain and just took a peak at stats, do you think that we would have traded for bargs? Of course not. The stats were screaming "bonehead move"

We're agreed on Bargs! His awfulness transcends metrics and the eye test!

My opinion on Lowry is, he's a great player who I've liked for years (wished we could have traded Lin for him), but players usually perform better in contract years, especially passion-players like Lowry (players who seem to play better than they are when they get fired up)- do you honestly believe he's going to be even better this year than last? Plus you have to start looking at his age. For a player that depends on his athleticism, he doesn't have the best conditioned body- he will likely start to decline quickly in a few years.

He needs to be in the right environment to excel- the Raptors were that environment, but I'm not sure the Knicks would have been- this team tends to bring out the worst in people, though hopefully with Phil at the helm that will change.

But he's great value at $12 mil even if he just regresses towards his career average. I'd rather have Lowry at $12 mil per and someone like Millsap at $10 mil per than Melo alone at double that.

I'd like Millsap too- he's a player that just helps teams win. Phil said the plan is to sign two good players in 2015, I suspect Millsap is one.

gunsnewing wrote:Yea Grunwald wanted Aldridge which is hilarious. Don't know how true that is. Who knows ith all the crap we are fed daily

During this time frame Portland was coming off a poor season, Aldridge was looked at as a good player but not special. Aldridge was looking like he was close to forcing his way out of town as well. Shumperts value was sky high, we had our first round pick( turned into Hardaway Jr) and our 2016 first round pick.

Shumpert, 2012 first rd pick, 2016 first round pick, 2 2nd rounders in 2014,2017, and filler, It could have been a possibility

mreinman wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

mreinman wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

mreinman wrote:its not that smart to guess and fling sh1t at the wall when there is excellent data that can think for us since many of us are not that good at it.

There is a reason why all teams and GM's are now heavily invested in advanced stats. But hey, how about we trade for Josh Smith. Or Bargs. Or Felton. Nick Young? Tyreke? Beas?

No - not anymore. Interesting that the players who are efficient are the ones that everyone wants.

Open your eyes and don't be scared of this new world.

And btw, I watch every single game as well.

That's my issue though- no data thinks for itself or thinks for us- it has to be weighted and interpreted by people, who based on their own opinions decide which data to value.

Morey is the Metrics King, but his offseason plan was "sign Melo!". Metrics are a tool, but they aren't the be all and end all. I like people exchanging opinions, theories, hunches, etc on these message boards- it would be dull as hell if everyone stopped doing that and just posted metrics, or weren't allowed to post their opinions because of a lack of data.

The eye test and metrics are both important. Opinions are fine but they should be researched and not just flung. Certain stats are irrefutable.

If we had someone with half a brain and just took a peak at stats, do you think that we would have traded for bargs? Of course not. The stats were screaming "bonehead move"

We're agreed on Bargs! His awfulness transcends metrics and the eye test!

My opinion on Lowry is, he's a great player who I've liked for years (wished we could have traded Lin for him), but players usually perform better in contract years, especially passion-players like Lowry (players who seem to play better than they are when they get fired up)- do you honestly believe he's going to be even better this year than last? Plus you have to start looking at his age. For a player that depends on his athleticism, he doesn't have the best conditioned body- he will likely start to decline quickly in a few years.

He needs to be in the right environment to excel- the Raptors were that environment, but I'm not sure the Knicks would have been- this team tends to bring out the worst in people, though hopefully with Phil at the helm that will change.

But he's great value at $12 mil even if he just regresses towards his career average. I'd rather have Lowry at $12 mil per and someone like Millsap at $10 mil per than Melo alone at double that.

Absolutely! I would take Dragic or Lowry at half the price any day.

And, Lowry is going to regress at 28 and Melo is gonna stay healthy and play at peak?

And ... to think that we could have traded for Lowry instead of Bargs, we would have been REALLY good, even with maxMelo.

Bonn1997 wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

mreinman wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

mreinman wrote:its not that smart to guess and fling sh1t at the wall when there is excellent data that can think for us since many of us are not that good at it.

There is a reason why all teams and GM's are now heavily invested in advanced stats. But hey, how about we trade for Josh Smith. Or Bargs. Or Felton. Nick Young? Tyreke? Beas?

No - not anymore. Interesting that the players who are efficient are the ones that everyone wants.

Open your eyes and don't be scared of this new world.

And btw, I watch every single game as well.

That's my issue though- no data thinks for itself or thinks for us- it has to be weighted and interpreted by people, who based on their own opinions decide which data to value.

Morey is the Metrics King, but his offseason plan was "sign Melo!". Metrics are a tool, but they aren't the be all and end all. I like people exchanging opinions, theories, hunches, etc on these message boards- it would be dull as hell if everyone stopped doing that and just posted metrics, or weren't allowed to post their opinions because of a lack of data.

The eye test and metrics are both important. Opinions are fine but they should be researched and not just flung. Certain stats are irrefutable.

If we had someone with half a brain and just took a peak at stats, do you think that we would have traded for bargs? Of course not. The stats were screaming "bonehead move"

We're agreed on Bargs! His awfulness transcends metrics and the eye test!

My opinion on Lowry is, he's a great player who I've liked for years (wished we could have traded Lin for him), but players usually perform better in contract years, especially passion-players like Lowry (players who seem to play better than they are when they get fired up)- do you honestly believe he's going to be even better this year than last? Plus you have to start looking at his age. For a player that depends on his athleticism, he doesn't have the best conditioned body- he will likely start to decline quickly in a few years.

He needs to be in the right environment to excel- the Raptors were that environment, but I'm not sure the Knicks would have been- this team tends to bring out the worst in people, though hopefully with Phil at the helm that will change.

But he's great value at $12 mil even if he just regresses towards his career average. I'd rather have Lowry at $12 mil per and someone like Millsap at $10 mil per than Melo alone at double that.

I'd like Millsap too- he's a player that just helps teams win. Phil said the plan is to sign two good players in 2015, I suspect Millsap is one.

But we'd have to either have a team that Millsap wants to come to or badly outbid everyone to the point where comes here anyway.

Agreed, which is why we need to have a pretty good season so we don't go into the offseason looking like a disaster zone.

Looking at the roster, it looks like we have players set up for the PG, SG and SF (Whether you actually think some of them are any good is up for debate!)- so, barring trades, it looks like we'll be targeting C, PF and back up SF. I guess that makes Gasol and Millsap the most likely targets.

nixluva wrote:1st to address the many jokes about Bargs. I've never said anything about Bargs being some kind of all star. My only point is that he could be used much better than he has so far. With better PG play and a better system there's no reason Bargs can't be a useful player for this team. I thought he should be used in the PnP game much more often. It became clear that Bargs was much better for this team when playing C and not in the same lineup as Tyson. Tyson sucked up all the PnR/P plays from Bargs in Woody's POS Offense, so it made sense to have them not play together. He was also in need of confidence building and under Woody that didn't happen. I think Phil has a chance to get in Bargs head and help him understand how he's wasting his talent and not giving enough effort.

People forget that Pau Gasol had some issues about his work ethic and energy level too. Phil had to deal with that in the past and i'm sure he's not gonna just let Bargs play with no energy without really trying to get into his head.

Gasol's relationship with coach Phil Jackson has come into question for completely different reasons after Jackson was quite animated while approaching Gasol during timeouts in the Lakers' 98-92 loss on Friday.

"I always listen," Gasol said. "I listened to what he had to say. It wasn't shocking to me, or anything. I wasn't shocked by it; I just wanted to see his point, and what point he was trying to make more than anything through his words."

At several times in the game, Jackson made his point by hitting Gasol in the chest with his fist.

"I didn't even feel that," Gasol said Saturday.

When a reporter said that in Game 3 Jackson looked the most demonstrative he's ever been with Gasol, Jackson denied it.

"That's not true," Jackson said. "I've been animated or demonstrative with him many times. He and I have a little routine we go through about once a year where we go get into a little bit of an activity like that where I feel like he might be sitting back on his heels and he needs to get on his toes."

Asked if Jackson had ever made contact with him before when he was coaching him, Gasol said, "Maybe once, I don't know."

As for the trade of the pick, let's also remember that this pick was one that we had already used in the Melo deal. It was gonna be the worst of the picks between the Knicks and Nuggets. Still a loss of an asset, but it wasn't a clean pick. It's value had already been diminished.

Raptors (less favorable of Knicks, Nuggets picks)

Traded Andrea Bargnani to Knicks for Steve Novak, Marcus Camby, Quentin Richardson, 2014 second round pick (?-?), 2016 first round pick (less favorable of Knicks, Nuggets picks) (?-?), 2017 second round pick (?-?) on 2013-07-10

My guess is that they felt it was less of an impact being a couple of years down the line and not likely a very good pick. Either way now with Phil here we have much better decision making. Dolan finally did the right thing.

Does it depend on the team making the trade

If we traded Bargnani right now for a future 1st round pick would this be bad value?

Would Phil have executed a bad trade